Pilot threatened with jail for lying; 38 in a 30
Discussion
North Wales Daily Post tells us of a pilot who was fined £2500 for "perverting the course of justice" when he gave a false name after being caught for doing 38 mph in a 30 area (I know this area, very wide straight road, typical speed trap area)
The judge said " I am not going to send you to jail because what you did was totally out of character" etc.....
Yes, I know he lied but if lying warranted a jail term there are some authority figures who should be serving life; right now.
The judge said " I am not going to send you to jail because what you did was totally out of character" etc.....
Yes, I know he lied but if lying warranted a jail term there are some authority figures who should be serving life; right now.
knowley said:
Its an arrestable offence to not provide an officer with your name and address. No matter what the situation - I think?
Not quite - a policeman has no right to have your name and/or address unless you're being given a ticket (summons) or arrested. You have every right to remain quiet. In the spirit of community and so forth, it's usually best to give your name and address - he's asking for a reason, ie witness names etc.
Not giving your name and address can become an arrestable offence if a summons is being issued (a ticket/fine) and the policeman is not satisfied you've given a correct name or you've not given an address to which a summons cannot be delivered. It's a police power under PACE. These actions may result in a charge of perverting to course of justice.
plodbucket is quite right. There are distinctions to be drawn. On another forum, I stirred a small hornets nest describing how illegal drivers, who give false details to Police can be arrested under S25 of PACE. Perverting Course of Justice (PCJ) is one relevant offence. However, when the motorist is "found out" whilst in custody, this usually results in a more minor charge of Obstructing a Police Officer. If however, motorist is a bit wise, and give someone else's proper details, and is charged under those details, this will put this innocent party in danger of being arrested, when the lying motorist invariably fails to appear in Court. In these circumstances, the CPS will usually proceed with the PCJ prosecution. 
zcacogp said:
Hear hear!
And I, for one, would quite like to see a number of them repeatedly "Picking up the Soap" in some of the less pleasant HMP's.
(And yes, I do stand by the totality of that statement - implication and all!)
Oli.
not a nice mental image. No one deserves that. If you dared suggest that a woman you didn't like should be raped, you'd be considered a deviant. This sort of attitude of letting the prison population inflict its own gross punishment is sick. I'm disappointed every time I hear someone suggest this sort of thing is ok.
Sorry, I lost the point of the email there, but speeding / law enforcement is one thing, and taking your just punishment aka prison is also ok. Rape of either sex is not ok under any situation. Clear?
No I don't have any horrible stories to tell. Best hope that none of us end up in prison for speeding, and having to reach for the soap eh? in prison for +30mph over the limit, leave prison with a STD & a colostomy bag. Yeah. Great.
C
Plodbucket sez:
>>>>Not quite - a policeman has no right to have your name and/or address unless you're being given a ticket (summons) or arrested. You have every right to remain quiet. In the spirit of community and so forth, it's usually best to give your name and address - he's asking for a reason, ie witness names etc.<<<<
WHHooooaaah there Elmer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Various Acts require Joe Public to give name and address pre arrest and at enquiry stage and failure to do so creates an offence. Firearms Act, Aliens Order, etc etc. As this is a Traffic site how about:-
s.165 RTA 88 Person driving a m.veh on a road, OR
Having been the driver at the time of an accident, OR
Person who PC believes to have committed an offence in relation to use of a m veh on a road
MUST
on being required give his name and address and produce Ins/MOT.
S 168 RTA 88 Person alleged to have committed an offence of reckless/due care who refuses to give name and address commits an offence
AND
S 170 Duties in case of accidents - details to be supplied to other persons.
One of the above has recently been updated with a power of arrest which at the moment alludes me.
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Friday 9th January 15:37
>>>>Not quite - a policeman has no right to have your name and/or address unless you're being given a ticket (summons) or arrested. You have every right to remain quiet. In the spirit of community and so forth, it's usually best to give your name and address - he's asking for a reason, ie witness names etc.<<<<
WHHooooaaah there Elmer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Various Acts require Joe Public to give name and address pre arrest and at enquiry stage and failure to do so creates an offence. Firearms Act, Aliens Order, etc etc. As this is a Traffic site how about:-
s.165 RTA 88 Person driving a m.veh on a road, OR
Having been the driver at the time of an accident, OR
Person who PC believes to have committed an offence in relation to use of a m veh on a road
MUST
on being required give his name and address and produce Ins/MOT.
S 168 RTA 88 Person alleged to have committed an offence of reckless/due care who refuses to give name and address commits an offence
AND
S 170 Duties in case of accidents - details to be supplied to other persons.
One of the above has recently been updated with a power of arrest which at the moment alludes me.
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Friday 9th January 15:37
zcacogp said:
Hear hear!
And I, for one, would quite like to see a number of them repeatedly "Picking up the Soap" in some of the less pleasant HMP's.
(And yes, I do stand by the totality of that statement - implication and all!)
Oli.
So you believe that doing 38 in a 30, not "driving dangerously, or carelessly" as the alleged offence was a speed limit offence - which was the proximate cause of this incident - deserves a prison sentence? Really?
Yes, he lied but as I have already said, if lying deserved prison then some police chiefs and many lawyers would be there right now.
>> Edited by Tafia on Friday 9th January 17:36
plodbucket said:
Its an arrestable offence to not provide an officer with your name and address. No matter what the situation - I think?
Not quite - a policeman has no right to have your name and/or address unless you're being given a ticket (summons) or arrested. You have every right to remain quiet. In the spirit of community and so forth, it's usually best to give your name and address - he's asking for a reason, ie witness names etc.
Not giving your name and address can become an arrestable offence if a summons is being issued (a ticket/fine) and the policeman is not satisfied you've given a correct name or you've not given an address to which a summons cannot be delivered. It's a police power under PACE. These actions may result in a charge of perverting to course of justice.
Under PACE I understood that an accused must be cautioned, " You do not have to say anything" etc. So does this only apply after we have given name and address?
Tafia said:
Under PACE I understood that an accused must be cautioned, " You do not have to say anything" etc. So does this only apply after we have given name and address?
Caution doesn;t apply when asking for information like name and address or to perform statuatory duties.
I thought the Bib only required the suspicion of wrong doing for him to compel you to give name and adress. Even if you do can still be arrested if BiB doesn't believe you.
Prat - false name and an address to BiB is a particularly dim thing to do.... escalates a simple £60 fine to substantially more.... pratt...
Mind you, I am still shocked by the number of people who get busted for "not providing a specimin of breath" when stopped - did they not know it was an arrestable offence??????
Mind you, I am still shocked by the number of people who get busted for "not providing a specimin of breath" when stopped - did they not know it was an arrestable offence??????
Tafia said:
Hear hear!
And I, for one, would quite like to see a number of them repeatedly "Picking up the Soap" in some of the less pleasant HMP's.
(And yes, I do stand by the totality of that statement - implication and all!)
Oli.
So you believe that doing 38 in a 30, not "driving dangerously, or carelessly" as the alleged offence was a speed limit offence - which was the proximate cause of this incident - deserves a prison sentence? Really?
Yes, he lied but as I have already said, if lying deserved prison then some police chiefs and many lawyers would be there right now.
>> Edited by Tafia on Friday 9th January 17:36
Read the thread from the top again, a little more carefully this time.
My understanding is that a Policeman acting within his lawful authority is entitled to request the name and address of any witness or suspect in relation to any alleged or suspected offence. A witness may then depart the scene but a suspect must remain until such details have been checked whether he is arrested or not.
If i'm wrong shoot me. I realise there is difference between Scottish and UK legislation.
If i'm wrong shoot me. I realise there is difference between Scottish and UK legislation.
xxplod said:
plodbucket is quite right. There are distinctions to be drawn. On another forum, I stirred a small hornets nest describing how illegal drivers, who give false details to Police can be arrested under S25 of PACE. Perverting Course of Justice (PCJ) is one relevant offence. However, when the motorist is "found out" whilst in custody, this usually results in a more minor charge of Obstructing a Police Officer. If however, motorist is a bit wise, and give someone else's proper details, and is charged under those details, this will put this innocent party in danger of being arrested, when the lying motorist invariably fails to appear in Court. In these circumstances, the CPS will usually proceed with the PCJ prosecution.
If They CAN Find HIM.
if they cant not much point running a PCJ prosecution
if there missing a defendant.
Chaps,
Two or three threads refering to an earlier thread of mine, all worth responding to.
My earlier "Soap" comment was actually referring to "some authority figures who should be serving life; right now", as Tafia originally put it. Although this wasn't explicit in my post, it was implicit, as I think Mr2Mike was pointing out (hence the "totality" reference - obviously missed by most readers.)
If this comment caused offence to Hertsbiker or anyone else then I apologise. It wasn't meant to - it was meant to be a light-hearted reference to my feelings about the authority figures in question. (Perhaps re-reading it in the light in which it was originally intended may be less offensive.)
Hope that clears things up!
Oli.
Two or three threads refering to an earlier thread of mine, all worth responding to.
My earlier "Soap" comment was actually referring to "some authority figures who should be serving life; right now", as Tafia originally put it. Although this wasn't explicit in my post, it was implicit, as I think Mr2Mike was pointing out (hence the "totality" reference - obviously missed by most readers.)
If this comment caused offence to Hertsbiker or anyone else then I apologise. It wasn't meant to - it was meant to be a light-hearted reference to my feelings about the authority figures in question. (Perhaps re-reading it in the light in which it was originally intended may be less offensive.)
Hope that clears things up!
Oli.
zcacogp said:
Chaps,
Two or three threads refering to an earlier thread of mine, all worth responding to.
My earlier "Soap" comment was actually referring to "some authority figures who should be serving life; right now", as Tafia originally put it. Although this wasn't explicit in my post, it was implicit, as I think Mr2Mike was pointing out (hence the "totality" reference - obviously missed by most readers.)
If this comment caused offence to Hertsbiker or anyone else then I apologise. It wasn't meant to - it was meant to be a light-hearted reference to my feelings about the authority figures in question. (Perhaps re-reading it in the light in which it was originally intended may be less offensive.)
Hope that clears things up!
Oli.
Hola Oli,
Aye, I am guilty of misunderstanding your comments. I thought they were referring to the pilot.
Glad we are still chums !!!
BTW if there are any "politically correct" folks amongst us who are easiy "offended" it may be worth pointing out what many folks do not know. PC is a tool of Communism, used to stifle free speech and
must be resisted by all means.......except by the Communists of course who are equally entitled to their views!!
History of PC here:
http://individual.utoronto.ca/alexander/pc/
Enjoy............or worry
Tafia,
I don't think we ever stopped being chums! My post was probably a bit obscure, and wasn't helped by there being another post between your original and my response.
No hard feelings!
BTW, good link to the PC history. Most worrying. A favourite pet hate of mine, by the way - PC-ness. I see it as being one of the underlying malaises of this country at the moment - very like scameras in many ways. Although the original intention is good (not to cause undue offence/to improve road safety) the end result is risable to the point of farce (being gagged in trying to say what you want/the ridiculous camera-controlled mess we have whenever we turn off our drives.)
Oli.
I don't think we ever stopped being chums! My post was probably a bit obscure, and wasn't helped by there being another post between your original and my response.
No hard feelings!
BTW, good link to the PC history. Most worrying. A favourite pet hate of mine, by the way - PC-ness. I see it as being one of the underlying malaises of this country at the moment - very like scameras in many ways. Although the original intention is good (not to cause undue offence/to improve road safety) the end result is risable to the point of farce (being gagged in trying to say what you want/the ridiculous camera-controlled mess we have whenever we turn off our drives.)
Oli.
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