Court case - driver without insurance/licence/tax
Discussion
Chaps,
A quickie, I'd appreciate the benefit of your collective wisdom and experience on this matter.
In July last year, I was hit from behind by a motorist when I stopped at a red light. He couldn't be bothered to use his brake pedal, and used the back of my car instead. I called the police as he had no ID, and they (eventually) turned up but grumbled like fury about it. Checked details of both of us, and the other guy's car was registered to a user car lot. He claimed he had bought it 3 days earler, and that it was comprehensively insured with Norwich Union. Plod gave both of us producers and went on their way.
Turns out the other driver had given a false name and address, and was picked up for something else 2 days later by a copper from a different force. The producer was found in his pocket, and he admitted to that copper that he was driving without insurance and to giving a false name and address.
The local Criminal Justice Unit has reported him for driving without a licence, MOT or insurance, and a court case is set for Feb 17th. I intend to be there for this case and to watch what happens. I am considerably out-of-pocket as a result of this (£150 insurance excess, 1/2 days work, letters and 'phone calls - total over £300) and want to claim this back through the court.
Out of interest, has anyone else been in this situation, and what happened if they did? What happens if he doesn't turn up/claims not to have any money to pay me back/his disappeared? What powers do the court have to pursue him for the money, and how brutal do they usually get? I for one would like to see him flogged publically until he pays, but I don't expect that they will do this ....
Any tales from your own experience more than welcome (or of there are some legal bods on here, some idea of usual course of events equally welcome.)
Oli.
A quickie, I'd appreciate the benefit of your collective wisdom and experience on this matter.
In July last year, I was hit from behind by a motorist when I stopped at a red light. He couldn't be bothered to use his brake pedal, and used the back of my car instead. I called the police as he had no ID, and they (eventually) turned up but grumbled like fury about it. Checked details of both of us, and the other guy's car was registered to a user car lot. He claimed he had bought it 3 days earler, and that it was comprehensively insured with Norwich Union. Plod gave both of us producers and went on their way.
Turns out the other driver had given a false name and address, and was picked up for something else 2 days later by a copper from a different force. The producer was found in his pocket, and he admitted to that copper that he was driving without insurance and to giving a false name and address.
The local Criminal Justice Unit has reported him for driving without a licence, MOT or insurance, and a court case is set for Feb 17th. I intend to be there for this case and to watch what happens. I am considerably out-of-pocket as a result of this (£150 insurance excess, 1/2 days work, letters and 'phone calls - total over £300) and want to claim this back through the court.
Out of interest, has anyone else been in this situation, and what happened if they did? What happens if he doesn't turn up/claims not to have any money to pay me back/his disappeared? What powers do the court have to pursue him for the money, and how brutal do they usually get? I for one would like to see him flogged publically until he pays, but I don't expect that they will do this ....
Any tales from your own experience more than welcome (or of there are some legal bods on here, some idea of usual course of events equally welcome.)
Oli.
Is he being prosecuted on account of his offences at the time of your accident or the later incident?
You are probably more likely to get any redress through the civil courts.
Of course, you ARE a victim of crime, so ask Mr Blunkett for some cash ... but tell him you don't want it out of any speeders' pockets
Streaky
You are probably more likely to get any redress through the civil courts.
Of course, you ARE a victim of crime, so ask Mr Blunkett for some cash ... but tell him you don't want it out of any speeders' pockets
Streaky
Yer screwed mate - happened to me last January, about £8ks worth of damage to my car, no costs ever recovered from the scrote (uninsured, banned, drugged ...) and a "fault" accident on my file, even though I was in my house at the time!!!
He was bailed for this offence then just did a disappearing act, never to be seen again afaik, even though he was known to the local police as a persistant offender....
The law IS an ass, and you just became a victim of PACE, PC and liberality. Welcome to the free world
He was bailed for this offence then just did a disappearing act, never to be seen again afaik, even though he was known to the local police as a persistant offender....
The law IS an ass, and you just became a victim of PACE, PC and liberality. Welcome to the free world
Streaky,
On account of my accident, apparently. The second time he was pulled, I don't think he was in an accident - i.e. it was for something else. (Don't know what, if anything, is happening about this though.)
Mondeoman, sorry to hear your story. To be honest, I don't have my hopes up, and am sick to the back teeth with it all. I don't know what to expect, but will fight it as far as I can.
Another point. Given that I did all that I reasonably could to recover my costs (calling the police to the scene etc) and the police allowed an uninsured driver to continue driving on the roads, is there any milage in trying to issue a complaint against the police or even sue them for failing to fulfill their duties? My gripe here is not just against the other driver, but against the police for being so slack. (Note - if any of the readers of this forum are Police Officers I am NOT generalising and insulting the whole breed, I am refering to a particular incident where I was very disappointed in both their attitude and actions.)
Oli.
On account of my accident, apparently. The second time he was pulled, I don't think he was in an accident - i.e. it was for something else. (Don't know what, if anything, is happening about this though.)
Mondeoman, sorry to hear your story. To be honest, I don't have my hopes up, and am sick to the back teeth with it all. I don't know what to expect, but will fight it as far as I can.
Another point. Given that I did all that I reasonably could to recover my costs (calling the police to the scene etc) and the police allowed an uninsured driver to continue driving on the roads, is there any milage in trying to issue a complaint against the police or even sue them for failing to fulfill their duties? My gripe here is not just against the other driver, but against the police for being so slack. (Note - if any of the readers of this forum are Police Officers I am NOT generalising and insulting the whole breed, I am refering to a particular incident where I was very disappointed in both their attitude and actions.)
Oli.
zcacogp said:
Streaky,
On account of my accident, apparently. The second time he was pulled, I don't think he was in an accident - i.e. it was for something else. (Don't know what, if anything, is happening about this though.)
Mondeoman, sorry to hear your story. To be honest, I don't have my hopes up, and am sick to the back teeth with it all. I don't know what to expect, but will fight it as far as I can.
Another point. Given that I did all that I reasonably could to recover my costs (calling the police to the scene etc) and the police allowed an uninsured driver to continue driving on the roads, is there any milage in trying to issue a complaint against the police or even sue them for failing to fulfill their duties? My gripe here is not just against the other driver, but against the police for being so slack. (Note - if any of the readers of this forum are Police Officers I am NOT generalising and insulting the whole breed, I am refering to a particular incident where I was very disappointed in both their attitude and actions.)
Oli.
sue for neglgence
dont bother with the complaints system Its a total bullshite.
and there just cover it up. and let the old bill worm there way out of it.
zcacogp said:
Roadrage,
OK, let's wait and see what comes of the court case, but if it was to be a farce (as I suspect it will be) then how do I go about suing the police? I don't have alot of money for solicitors (and I have about £400 less than I would have done had this not happened.)
Oli.
To sue the police, go to a solicitor, explaining your case. They will give you advice as to whether or not you have a valid case, and take it from there.
The first consultation is generally free.
To make a formal complaint you attend at the police station and ask to speak to the duty Inspector.
The matter is followed up from there.
(cue outlaw/roadrage)
zcacogp said:
Roadrage,
OK, let's wait and see what comes of the court case, but if it was to be a farce (as I suspect it will be) then how do I go about suing the police? I don't have alot of money for solicitors (and I have about £400 less than I would have done had this not happened.)
Oli.
to sue you need a good case and a solisitor that aint to freindly with the bib.
but far more civl cases are won than formall complaints are up held.
and offten a good solisitor will recomed not making a complaint if your sueing.
so evidence dont get lost and storys made up.
and as anyone will tell you whos ever made a complaint the the answer you get from the PCA is ushally a joke.
and very police bias.
Primarily in English law there are two types of cases:
Criminal cases - "The Country" (defined as "R" for "Regina") -v- "Bad Guy" (ie a speeding case R -v- Yorke)
and
Civil case - "Party 1" -v- "Party 2" (ie any type of case brought by one party against another eg Coke -v- Sainsburys because Sainsburys obtained Cokes receipe and are using it to brew their own drink etc)
Criminal cases - "The Country" (defined as "R" for "Regina") -v- "Bad Guy" (ie a speeding case R -v- Yorke)
and
Civil case - "Party 1" -v- "Party 2" (ie any type of case brought by one party against another eg Coke -v- Sainsburys because Sainsburys obtained Cokes receipe and are using it to brew their own drink etc)
What is the situation with the uninsured loss recovery fund? Does this not cover the scrote's end of the claim and then try and recover it from him?
At a guess the claim still goes against you as a "fault" claim until they can recover the money. However, you know the identity of the person you are claiming off and they are being prosecuted for uninsured etc so it "should" not count as a fault claim (when I say "should" I do mean "in a perfect world". I do realise that in reality it will count against you).
At the worst case you could sue they guy through the small claims court for the cost of the repair, extra insurance etc. When you win and he pays up, you re-fund the insurance company and the claim is settled as "recovered from 3rd party" or whatever they class it as. However, we all know that even if you win the chances of them being able to pay are slim (maybe try and find out his/his families finicial status) so you will be lucky if gets told to pay £1 a week. Then you still have to find a way to ensure payment as he is likely to default.
>> Edited by icamm on Thursday 15th January 15:30
At a guess the claim still goes against you as a "fault" claim until they can recover the money. However, you know the identity of the person you are claiming off and they are being prosecuted for uninsured etc so it "should" not count as a fault claim (when I say "should" I do mean "in a perfect world". I do realise that in reality it will count against you).
At the worst case you could sue they guy through the small claims court for the cost of the repair, extra insurance etc. When you win and he pays up, you re-fund the insurance company and the claim is settled as "recovered from 3rd party" or whatever they class it as. However, we all know that even if you win the chances of them being able to pay are slim (maybe try and find out his/his families finicial status) so you will be lucky if gets told to pay £1 a week. Then you still have to find a way to ensure payment as he is likely to default.
>> Edited by icamm on Thursday 15th January 15:30
Z.
Plod attended the scene of what appears to be a "run of the mill" (no offence) damage only accident that now adays does not attract very much Police attention unless there are aggravated circumstances and charges of dangerous, due care are blatantly present and supported by witnesses. On what you say there is a due care and attention by umping you up the back. But again from what you say this has not been preferred.
Maybe a cause for complaint against Police but I would suspect hardly likely as CPS may not have run.
So Plod asks for Driving Documents which the law states can be produced 7 days later. The details given were false and Plod has been deceived. This can happen through no fault of Plod. So until the 7th day Plod would not know that false details given and driver had no docs. No grounds therefore IMHO for a complaint on this point.
Now to damages. As far as I am aware a Court can award damages under S 35 Power of Criminal Court Act 1973 but only in relation to damage caused by that offence, which in your case would have been a due care as this offence would incur damage to your vehicle. No direct damage has been caused to you through the documenation offences. So as far as I am aware Court cannot give you anything.
But, all is not lost as there are two avenues to go down.
The first already mentioned- action in a Small Claims (Civil) Court to recoup your expenses. Simple to undertake.
The second is to pursue a claim through Motor Insurance Bureau. Insurances are obliged to pay part of every Policy to MIB to assist members who are involved in hit and runs where driver elopes and not traced or is uninsured. It used to be injury only accidents but IIRC its scope has been widened to include damage only accidents.Apparently there are a number of firms that will assist.
Whilst your hopes may up from this later para it would appear from the circumstances that this scrote will be a man of straw and little or no assets to pay any damages that are awarded.
See
www.tinyurl.com/yszfa
www.tinyurl.com/ywtcu
or type in Motor Insurance Bureau as a Keyword search through your ISP.
DVD
Plod attended the scene of what appears to be a "run of the mill" (no offence) damage only accident that now adays does not attract very much Police attention unless there are aggravated circumstances and charges of dangerous, due care are blatantly present and supported by witnesses. On what you say there is a due care and attention by umping you up the back. But again from what you say this has not been preferred.
Maybe a cause for complaint against Police but I would suspect hardly likely as CPS may not have run.
So Plod asks for Driving Documents which the law states can be produced 7 days later. The details given were false and Plod has been deceived. This can happen through no fault of Plod. So until the 7th day Plod would not know that false details given and driver had no docs. No grounds therefore IMHO for a complaint on this point.
Now to damages. As far as I am aware a Court can award damages under S 35 Power of Criminal Court Act 1973 but only in relation to damage caused by that offence, which in your case would have been a due care as this offence would incur damage to your vehicle. No direct damage has been caused to you through the documenation offences. So as far as I am aware Court cannot give you anything.
But, all is not lost as there are two avenues to go down.
The first already mentioned- action in a Small Claims (Civil) Court to recoup your expenses. Simple to undertake.
The second is to pursue a claim through Motor Insurance Bureau. Insurances are obliged to pay part of every Policy to MIB to assist members who are involved in hit and runs where driver elopes and not traced or is uninsured. It used to be injury only accidents but IIRC its scope has been widened to include damage only accidents.Apparently there are a number of firms that will assist.
Whilst your hopes may up from this later para it would appear from the circumstances that this scrote will be a man of straw and little or no assets to pay any damages that are awarded.
See
www.tinyurl.com/yszfa
www.tinyurl.com/ywtcu
or type in Motor Insurance Bureau as a Keyword search through your ISP.
DVD
Chaps,
Lots of really helpful answers. Thanks.
The Motor Insurance Bureau will help with damage-only claims, but have a £400 excess on claims. My out-of-pocket losses are about this amount, and therefore I would be claiming for a tenner or so. (Better then nothing though, I hear you say.)
Interested in the comments about not being able to claim if the court case only covers documentation offences. If this is the case then I am wasting my time. However, I have been told by the local Criminal Justice Unit (Stratford, E London) that I can claim, and am currently awaiting for the forms to allow me to do this. They could be wrong - I'll check this with them. (Thinking about this, I am told that he has "been reported fro driving with no insurance, no MOT, no licence etc ..." If this is the case, then I can legitimately claim that my out-of-pocket expenses are as a direct result of his not having insurance, so surely I can claim?)
However, the essential problem seems to be that no matter how much I can get this pond-life banged to rights, if he hasn't got the cash to pay then I won't be getting it. Several of you have mentioned this, and I don't know what to do about it. If he is on benefits (fairly likely - I don't think he was an illegal immigrant but wouldn't be 100% sure), can the damages be stopped out of these benefits? I doubt that he is a man of any means to pay directly, but he was driving around in a car (J-reg Mazda 323) which he claimed to have bought 3 days before the accident. If he can splash out a couple of hundred quid on this then he may have another couple of hundred kicking around somewhere.
I guess the next stage is to investigate the small claims court route. Will it cost me? I would be willing to pay a little bit if there was a reasonable chance of getting the cash out of him. How do I start this ball rolling - can I do it on-line?
Thanks again for your help folks. If anyone is interested, I'll keep you posted as to the outcome.
Mr Zoomer - your offer is very gratefully recieved. I will Email you (and may already have done by the time you read this.)
Edited to say - Mr Zoomer, I can't see how to make this wonderful website give me your Email address, or allow me to PM you. Drop me a line on orinocowomble@eurobell.co.uk if you are still happy to offer advice.
Oli.
>> Edited by zcacogp on Thursday 15th January 16:37
Lots of really helpful answers. Thanks.
The Motor Insurance Bureau will help with damage-only claims, but have a £400 excess on claims. My out-of-pocket losses are about this amount, and therefore I would be claiming for a tenner or so. (Better then nothing though, I hear you say.)
Interested in the comments about not being able to claim if the court case only covers documentation offences. If this is the case then I am wasting my time. However, I have been told by the local Criminal Justice Unit (Stratford, E London) that I can claim, and am currently awaiting for the forms to allow me to do this. They could be wrong - I'll check this with them. (Thinking about this, I am told that he has "been reported fro driving with no insurance, no MOT, no licence etc ..." If this is the case, then I can legitimately claim that my out-of-pocket expenses are as a direct result of his not having insurance, so surely I can claim?)
However, the essential problem seems to be that no matter how much I can get this pond-life banged to rights, if he hasn't got the cash to pay then I won't be getting it. Several of you have mentioned this, and I don't know what to do about it. If he is on benefits (fairly likely - I don't think he was an illegal immigrant but wouldn't be 100% sure), can the damages be stopped out of these benefits? I doubt that he is a man of any means to pay directly, but he was driving around in a car (J-reg Mazda 323) which he claimed to have bought 3 days before the accident. If he can splash out a couple of hundred quid on this then he may have another couple of hundred kicking around somewhere.
I guess the next stage is to investigate the small claims court route. Will it cost me? I would be willing to pay a little bit if there was a reasonable chance of getting the cash out of him. How do I start this ball rolling - can I do it on-line?
Thanks again for your help folks. If anyone is interested, I'll keep you posted as to the outcome.
Mr Zoomer - your offer is very gratefully recieved. I will Email you (and may already have done by the time you read this.)
Edited to say - Mr Zoomer, I can't see how to make this wonderful website give me your Email address, or allow me to PM you. Drop me a line on orinocowomble@eurobell.co.uk if you are still happy to offer advice.
Oli.
>> Edited by zcacogp on Thursday 15th January 16:37
... sorry, another point.
Yes, I guess this will potentially go down as a "Fault" claim against me, but the car I was driving is insured as a classic, and the insurance company seemed shockingly nonchalant about doing anything to my driving record. The policy doesn't work with no-claims bonuses, so they didn't dock that, and they seem utterly unconcerned about reclaiming any of their money from Mr Scrote. If their premiums weren't so reasonable I'd probably complain at them a bit for this ...
I have had to notify the insurance company of the other car I have insured in my name though, and have no doubt that they bumped my premium up on the strength of it. Should I claim for this in court as well?
Oli.
Yes, I guess this will potentially go down as a "Fault" claim against me, but the car I was driving is insured as a classic, and the insurance company seemed shockingly nonchalant about doing anything to my driving record. The policy doesn't work with no-claims bonuses, so they didn't dock that, and they seem utterly unconcerned about reclaiming any of their money from Mr Scrote. If their premiums weren't so reasonable I'd probably complain at them a bit for this ...
I have had to notify the insurance company of the other car I have insured in my name though, and have no doubt that they bumped my premium up on the strength of it. Should I claim for this in court as well?
Oli.
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