do they pursue EU licence holders for speeding?
Discussion
Hi All,
further to my post yeterday "Help - Tactics to defend alleged speeding offence" I have a further question which has come out of that post which i hope someone will know the answer to.....
Is there currently under UK or EU law a mechanism for pursuing EU licence holders (specifically German licence holders) for speeding offences committed in the UK?
I know they are attempting to co-ordinate it under a new European driving licence but they could not introduce retrospective legislation on the topic so the question to be answered is what can they currently do if you are a german citizen, with a licence which is german and you were caught driving at around double the speed limit in the UK by a camera?
PS thanks to Deltaf & DVD et al for their response yesterday.
further to my post yeterday "Help - Tactics to defend alleged speeding offence" I have a further question which has come out of that post which i hope someone will know the answer to.....
Is there currently under UK or EU law a mechanism for pursuing EU licence holders (specifically German licence holders) for speeding offences committed in the UK?
I know they are attempting to co-ordinate it under a new European driving licence but they could not introduce retrospective legislation on the topic so the question to be answered is what can they currently do if you are a german citizen, with a licence which is german and you were caught driving at around double the speed limit in the UK by a camera?
PS thanks to Deltaf & DVD et al for their response yesterday.
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat/1998/c_216/c_21619980710en00010012.pdf
And good luck interpreting that - basically if he's not going to get disqualified for that offense, I would think the Police will probably not pursue it, but you never know...
>> Edited by Kurgis on Wednesday 28th January 16:22
And good luck interpreting that - basically if he's not going to get disqualified for that offense, I would think the Police will probably not pursue it, but you never know...
>> Edited by Kurgis on Wednesday 28th January 16:22
Note from my 1997 Stone's Justices' Manual on Mags Courts and criminal procedures:
" If the defendant is outside UK an information may be laid but a summons or warrant may not be issued for service or execution abroad. Such a document may be prepared and held pending the return of the offender to this country or proceedings commenced to secure his return."
IIRC when BiB want someone for a serious crime who is living abroad then providing there is an extradition agreement between the two countries, then BiB parades his evidence before Bow Street Magistrates, who if there is evidence to support an arrest will issue a warrant. More Court follows aboard and if they agree on extradition bloke is brought back to UK to be dealt with. This is for SERIOUS OFFENCES. Never heard it applied for speeding or riding a bike without lights..
.
Are you too young to remember the Ronnie BIGGS saga?
There is I understand a European Warrant of Arrest which I gather is directed to the arrest for Terrorism.
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Wednesday 28th January 16:43
PS. On the practicality side would Joe Public allow 2 BiB to fly to Germany to collect the lawbreaker and return to UK at a cost of 2,300 notes plus ( Air fares, BiB's wages, subsistence, overnight lodging allowances etc etc) when the max fine is 1,000 (never imposed more like 150).
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Wednesday 28th January 17:12
" If the defendant is outside UK an information may be laid but a summons or warrant may not be issued for service or execution abroad. Such a document may be prepared and held pending the return of the offender to this country or proceedings commenced to secure his return."
IIRC when BiB want someone for a serious crime who is living abroad then providing there is an extradition agreement between the two countries, then BiB parades his evidence before Bow Street Magistrates, who if there is evidence to support an arrest will issue a warrant. More Court follows aboard and if they agree on extradition bloke is brought back to UK to be dealt with. This is for SERIOUS OFFENCES. Never heard it applied for speeding or riding a bike without lights..
.
Are you too young to remember the Ronnie BIGGS saga?
There is I understand a European Warrant of Arrest which I gather is directed to the arrest for Terrorism.
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Wednesday 28th January 16:43
PS. On the practicality side would Joe Public allow 2 BiB to fly to Germany to collect the lawbreaker and return to UK at a cost of 2,300 notes plus ( Air fares, BiB's wages, subsistence, overnight lodging allowances etc etc) when the max fine is 1,000 (never imposed more like 150).
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Wednesday 28th January 17:12
In the good old days of proper traffic policing - they used to arrest them! Work as freelance interpreter/translator besides my day job! Remember interpreting for one Deutschy Stormtrooper who had literally pushed the Porsche to the limit up the M6 - only he did it in the POLICE SPEED CHECK zone around Lancaster! The Lancs cops locked him up till the Mag court dealt with it. He got draconian fine, and they sent letter to German licencing authorities to advise them of conviction. He was banned from driving in this country - not sure how they would check this should he ever have revisited during duration of his ban! (This was ca 5 years or so ago!)
Recently been involved in translation exercises on EU standardisation. "Worried" read the press article correctly re retrospective - should this ever come to be UK law under Directive. Currently as DVD says - not really worth the expense of bringing him to book here. They would have option, I think, of notifying the German authorities - who could take action at own discretion depending upon seriousness of offence.
Vehicle and licence details may be kept on record here and ban imposed on car hire and driving in this country - similar to those foreign rally drivers if I am remembering correctly?!
If Kraut had hire car - NIP would go in first instance to Reg Keeper - would it not? Again - doubtful under current legislation that they would haul him back over here. But think licence details provided by Hire Company would still go on a database.
Think this is what I translated - not got in front of me and did the job ages ago!
Recently been involved in translation exercises on EU standardisation. "Worried" read the press article correctly re retrospective - should this ever come to be UK law under Directive. Currently as DVD says - not really worth the expense of bringing him to book here. They would have option, I think, of notifying the German authorities - who could take action at own discretion depending upon seriousness of offence.
Vehicle and licence details may be kept on record here and ban imposed on car hire and driving in this country - similar to those foreign rally drivers if I am remembering correctly?!
If Kraut had hire car - NIP would go in first instance to Reg Keeper - would it not? Again - doubtful under current legislation that they would haul him back over here. But think licence details provided by Hire Company would still go on a database.
Think this is what I translated - not got in front of me and did the job ages ago!
Dwight VanDriver said:
There is I understand a European Warrant of Arrest which I gather is directed to the arrest for Terrorism.
Not quite right. It's for anything a member state wishes to arrest someone for in any other member state, regarless of whether the offence committed abroad is an offence in the "offender's" country.
First warrant was issued this week, UK getting some thief from Ireland, or vice versa.
What this means is that you can do something in Greece that's illegal there, but you didn't know. Next week a couple of Greek policemen can knock on your door, arrest you, take you back to Greece, dump you in a cell and leave you there as long as they like.
In some states, they don't even have to have evidence. They can arrest you on suspicion while they look for evidence.
Welcome to the European Union, folks. And thanks, Tony, you're looking after us well.
Don't some of the Central European states now set to join the EU still have the death sentence? If so, how does that square with the European Arrest Warrant? Currently, the UK will not extradite its citizens to countries that can impose the death sentence for the arrestable offence - Streaky
PS - even if the EAW was only for "terrorism", Bundersturmfurher would issue one for 1 mph over the limit - S
PS - even if the EAW was only for "terrorism", Bundersturmfurher would issue one for 1 mph over the limit - S
am not sure the euro arrest warrant can apply - speeding is not an arrestable offence in this country is it? any police who can answer this?
the euro arrest warrant also only applies where the punishment for the offence is a maximum 12mths imprisonment or worse. I dont think it applies here, at least i hope not!
to quote the home office:
"The EAW will represent a step change in European wide judicial co-operation.
It is a common arrest and surrender warrant designed to provide efficient and effective justice within the EU, whilst protecting the rights of defendants and victims.
The EAW applies to all offences which carry a maximum penalty of at least 12 months in the issuing state or, in cases of those who have already been convicted, where the sentence is at least four months."
for a bit more info have a look here:
www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crimpol/oic/extradition/bill/eaw.html#1
and here:
www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crimpol/oic/extradition/bill/faq2.html
the euro arrest warrant also only applies where the punishment for the offence is a maximum 12mths imprisonment or worse. I dont think it applies here, at least i hope not!
to quote the home office:
"The EAW will represent a step change in European wide judicial co-operation.
It is a common arrest and surrender warrant designed to provide efficient and effective justice within the EU, whilst protecting the rights of defendants and victims.
The EAW applies to all offences which carry a maximum penalty of at least 12 months in the issuing state or, in cases of those who have already been convicted, where the sentence is at least four months."
for a bit more info have a look here:
www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crimpol/oic/extradition/bill/eaw.html#1
and here:
www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crimpol/oic/extradition/bill/faq2.html
worried said:Ask the Creek plane-spotters whether they felt their rights were protected (I know their case preceeded the EAW, but the application of "justice" in Greece hasn't changed in the interim) - Streaky
[ ... ] It is a common arrest and surrender warrant designed to provide efficient and effective justice within the EU, whilst protecting the rights of defendants and victims.
Marki said:Well the Extradition Bill 14 November 2002 (I can't find an Act online later than 1989) - implementing the EAW - does provide for a bar against extradition where the accused might be subject to the death penalty - Streaky
Don't some of the Central European states now set to join the EU still have the death sentence? If so, how does that square with the European Arrest Warrant?
I belive they are not allowed to join up if the have the death sentance
I have dealt with many situation (as a Custody Sergeant) where overseas drivers find themselves in trouble, for either speding or perhaps for Careless Driving, following an accident. It is quite usual for them to be arrested, usually under S25 of PACE - as they do not have an address suitable for the service of a summons. Also, we have no way of checking at the roadside whether they are giving correct details.
When in custody, they will be interviewed and could either be charged or reported. With hauliers, many bigger companies have an agent in the UK, which means the driver can get bail, as we effectively have a means to get hold of him.
In the absence of such arrangements, and for a private motorist, then I would be likely to refuse bail, and place them before the next available court, on the grounds that they will Fail to Appear. i.e. they'll be on the first plane home, in full knowledge we won't go after them, as DVD has said.
When in custody, they will be interviewed and could either be charged or reported. With hauliers, many bigger companies have an agent in the UK, which means the driver can get bail, as we effectively have a means to get hold of him.
In the absence of such arrangements, and for a private motorist, then I would be likely to refuse bail, and place them before the next available court, on the grounds that they will Fail to Appear. i.e. they'll be on the first plane home, in full knowledge we won't go after them, as DVD has said.
xxplod
Our problem is what can we do to Mr German to get him back here (other than on his own violition)to take the rap for his friends speeding case?.
Thanks for the references have now found UK's law which is Extradition Act, 2003, Section 148 -
(www.tinyurl.com/2fgzh)
Summary offences with punishment less than 1 yrs imprisonment are not included so doesn't apply to speeding. Only traffic offence mentioned and applying is dealing in stolen motors.
So back to square one cannot touch him unless he comes back on hos own accord..
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Friday 30th January 16:20
Our problem is what can we do to Mr German to get him back here (other than on his own violition)to take the rap for his friends speeding case?.
Thanks for the references have now found UK's law which is Extradition Act, 2003, Section 148 -
(www.tinyurl.com/2fgzh)
Summary offences with punishment less than 1 yrs imprisonment are not included so doesn't apply to speeding. Only traffic offence mentioned and applying is dealing in stolen motors.
So back to square one cannot touch him unless he comes back on hos own accord..
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Friday 30th January 16:20
Dwight VanDriver said:
MBH
Have you the EEC Reg/UK Act reference please ....it aint in my 67 Moriarty.
DVD
I see it's been covered now but no, I don't have any references. All gathered from press reports over the past year, and Idris Francis's list, where there has been much disquiet.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff