RE: Why no Cameras outside Schools?
Monday 2nd February 2004
Why no Cameras outside Schools?
Rules for placing of cameras brought into question
A story broken by Motor Cycle News last week has brought into question whether speed cameras are being placed in the areas in which they are most needed.
The rules regarding speed camera placement are complex. The number of deaths and injuries on that stretch of road is taken into account along with the number of drivers exceeding the limit. For a camera to be justified:
- Four people must have been killed or seriously injured and eight people must have suffered personal injury accidents in the previous 36 months.
- Speed must have been a factor in some of the crashes
- At least 20% of drivers are exceeding the posted speed limit
The basis of MCN's story is research by Paul Smith of Safespeed. He noticed that another requirement for placement of a cameras is that the "85th percentile speed" is exceeding the ACPO (Association of Chief Police Offices) guidelines for prosecution (10% above the speed limit plus 2mph), i.e. most drivers are ignoring the speed limit.
The 85th percentile speed is the speed at or below which 85% of vehicles travel on a stretch of road. Some road safety research in the past has shown that this speed is also the speed adopted by drivers who have the least crashes.
To highlight the absurdity of the rule, we just have to look at the example of a school within a 30mph limit. If the majority of motorists do not exceed that limit or the police's tolerance of 35mph then a camera can't be justified, even if the deaths and injuries meet the guidelines. Result? No deterrant for the idiots that do want to speed past.
Speed cameras can only be justified by the current guidelines if they expect them to catch lots of people speeding. That in itself begs the question whether speed cameras are the best means of alerting people to the dangers of that particular 'blackspot'.
If speed cameras are to retain any credibility with the general public it will be important for the Department of Transport to review the guidelines and ensure that cameras can be placed in areas that have obvious benefit rather than in locations that simply catch the most people.
Despite the publicity surrounding speed cameras, clear guidelines on speed camera placement are still not easy to obtain. The best background reading is from the Government's report on the DfT website . Paul Smith goes further into his findings here .
Discussion
I have an 8 yr old son at school and every day I see white van man 'et all' speed past the school at dropping off / picking up time. Although I love to drive fast myself, I'm at a loss as to the reason why speed cameras are not positioned by schools. Maybe speed bumps 100m either side of the entrance is the answer?
article said:
Speed must have been a factor in some of the crashes
isnt even go 5 mph still speed. then they are just taking advantage of twisting the words around so they technically are always justified to blame speed.
And to justify having _speed cameras_ should speed always be a factor?
said:
Maybe speed bumps 100m either side of the entrance is the answer?
Er........No!
Speed bumps damage suspension, delay emergency vehicles etc etc. Schools are open 980 hours out of 8760 a year. If there is a genuine problem with a few speeders past a school at peak times then surely this is what a mobile scamera is supposed to be for.
geofflowe said:
I have an 8 yr old son at school and every day I see white van man 'et all' speed past the school at dropping off / picking up time. Although I love to drive fast myself, I'm at a loss as to the reason why speed cameras are not positioned by schools. Maybe speed bumps 100m either side of the entrance is the answer?
We have speed bumps at the entrance to our schools - b'stard pain in the ar5e. We asked for a safe place for kids to cross the road and thats what we got, wheres the feckin zebra crossing that we thought we were going to get.
On the way to my works just before you get to Ashchurch Army barracks is a junior school with a speed camera outside it.
It never goes off as all the traffic is at a standstill due to all the srm's trying to get across the road into the car park.
Its been there for as long as I have been in Glos - 4 years or so.
Claire
Watch them move it now.
It never goes off as all the traffic is at a standstill due to all the srm's trying to get across the road into the car park.
Its been there for as long as I have been in Glos - 4 years or so.
Claire
Watch them move it now.
If you drive at the speed limit outside my Kids school you'd be certified mad. Thing is if they put up speed camera's then everyone would think it was alright to drive at 30 instead of a more sensible pace. Traffic calming ? No ! What is needed is the police (for a couple of weeks) to caution all the parents who drive recklessly (but within the speed limit).
Byff said:
geofflowe said:
I have an 8 yr old son at school and every day I see white van man 'et all' speed past the school at dropping off / picking up time. Although I love to drive fast myself, I'm at a loss as to the reason why speed cameras are not positioned by schools. Maybe speed bumps 100m either side of the entrance is the answer?
We have speed bumps at the entrance to our schools - b'stard pain in the ar5e. We asked for a safe place for kids to cross the road and thats what we got, wheres the feckin zebra crossing that we thought we were going to get.
This is a worrying trend outside schools. Instead of installing proper crossings, the concil prefers to build what can only be described as barracades designed to rip the suspension off your car. Problem is that all the parents and kids then assume that because the 'ramp' is level with the pavement it is therefore their right of way - it isn't, and even if it was how is a 2 ton car travelling at 10mph supposed to stop in 6 inches. Surely, schools are still teaching physics these days!?
>> Edited by groomi on Monday 2nd February 13:38
jacko lah said:
If you drive at the speed limit outside my Kids school you'd be certified mad. Thing is if they put up speed camera's then everyone would think it was alright to drive at 30 instead of a more sensible pace. Traffic calming ? No ! What is needed is the police (for a couple of weeks) to caution all the parents who drive recklessly (but within the speed limit).
The trouble with all this is that there are too many rules and burocracy. Common sense in the above scenario says make it a 20 (or even 15) limit and enforce it with cameras. Problem solved.
Sadly, common sense seems to be a commodity in short supply these days with those in charge.
As far as schools are concerned I think the American/Canadian system whereby the school controls a set of blinking orange lights which activates a special "school zone" speed limit, only at intake and kick-out times, is very good.
THEN have your friendly BiBs checking all the speeders and Mumpties who are ignoring all the laws HC etc... especially the mumpties with their 4x4 tanks and doing their makeup........!!!!
THEN have your friendly BiBs checking all the speeders and Mumpties who are ignoring all the laws HC etc... especially the mumpties with their 4x4 tanks and doing their makeup........!!!!
JMGS4 said:
As far as schools are concerned I think the American/Canadian system whereby the school controls a set of blinking orange lights which activates a special "school zone" speed limit, only at intake and kick-out times, is very good.
THEN have your friendly BiBs checking all the speeders and Mumpties who are ignoring all the laws HC etc... especially the mumpties with their 4x4 tanks and doing their makeup........!!!!
But wouldn't this also give the impression that the Police could be helping to protect the kids from paedophiles? Pah! Far too sensible that, sir.
JMGS4 said:
As far as schools are concerned I think the American/Canadian system whereby the school controls a set of blinking orange lights which activates a special "school zone" speed limit, only at intake and kick-out times, is very good.
THEN have your friendly BiBs checking all the speeders and Mumpties who are ignoring all the laws HC etc... especially the mumpties with their 4x4 tanks and doing their makeup........!!!!
We used to have this outside my Junior school (all those years ago). The lollipop lady turned it on and off and she then stood outside the school entrance.
There was never an accident outside that school. There again we did get taught road safety, the green cross code and cycling proficiency as well.
XM5ER said:
We used to have this outside my Junior school (all those years ago). The lollipop lady turned it on and off and she then stood outside the school entrance.
There was never an accident outside that school. There again we did get taught road safety, the green cross code and cycling proficiency as well.
Yes and that's all been cancelled so that NooLabia can have another champers party probably....
Kids have to be taught about traffic as much as drivers have to be taught about kids!!!!
ah, one may well ask? no revenue perchance.
i totally agree that past ALL schools during school time it should be a maximum 20 mph. also there should be an area where no vehicle can stop/park/drop off around the gates, say 30 yards each side, at going home time, punishable with £100 fine. now i would agree for "parking ticket man" to do that task.
what ever happened to the "greencross man" and the tv ads. showing people where and how to safely cross the road? no money for the safety information slots on the tv possibly?
i totally agree that past ALL schools during school time it should be a maximum 20 mph. also there should be an area where no vehicle can stop/park/drop off around the gates, say 30 yards each side, at going home time, punishable with £100 fine. now i would agree for "parking ticket man" to do that task.
what ever happened to the "greencross man" and the tv ads. showing people where and how to safely cross the road? no money for the safety information slots on the tv possibly?
I'm all for slagging off politicians but we ought to get our facts straight first.
Road Safety Education is actually part of the national geography curriculum and is thus compulsory in every school. Most schools use the green cross code as well as other methods to get this important message across. Teachers see road safety ed as being very important. Cycling proficiency is, and always has been optional. However, nearly every school in our county does it.
And you obviously dont watch kids tv! There isnt a green cross code advert on tv anymore because it was done in the 70's and looked crap even then
its been replaced with a more modern cartoon one with hedghogs on it.
>> Edited by jam1et on Monday 2nd February 16:30
Road Safety Education is actually part of the national geography curriculum and is thus compulsory in every school. Most schools use the green cross code as well as other methods to get this important message across. Teachers see road safety ed as being very important. Cycling proficiency is, and always has been optional. However, nearly every school in our county does it.
And you obviously dont watch kids tv! There isnt a green cross code advert on tv anymore because it was done in the 70's and looked crap even then
its been replaced with a more modern cartoon one with hedghogs on it. >> Edited by jam1et on Monday 2nd February 16:30
tom & jerry yes but i was only asking what happend to the green cross man (my era!) out of curiosity. never seen the hedgehog cartoon.
however on my travels round where i live i often see potential accidents around school gates due to many parked cars and the limit is at 30 mph, still think it should be 20.
however on my travels round where i live i often see potential accidents around school gates due to many parked cars and the limit is at 30 mph, still think it should be 20.
Gaffer said:
On the way to my works just before you get to Ashchurch Army barracks is a junior school with a speed camera outside it.
It never goes off as all the traffic is at a standstill due to all the srm's trying to get across the road into the car park.
Its been there for as long as I have been in Glos - 4 years or so.
Claire
Watch them move it now.
I drive past that one frequently, saw it go off once on a Saturday morning. A few years ago ( >4) someone must have reversed into it as it was facing the sky (trying to catch low flying aircraft)for quite a while. When THEY finally repaired it THEY put an armco barrier around it. It's a tricky one just the other side of a hump-back bridge.
with current technology it would be easy to have variable limits and cameras to enforce 20mph limits only at the relevant times of the day. make sense to everyone, earn respect, etc. etc. Oh silly me, they wouldn't collect as much money then, would they? And i liked the point about child protection, where is the camera that only takes photos of the paedophiles?
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