Defra proposes closing by-ways, consultation haha!
Discussion
Not strictly S,P & L, well maybe L.
On another thread re cameras questions are raised whether it is possible in the current climate to have a truly objective study.
I would say its impossible to have any debate with the shower in Whitehall.
This issue got raised very briefly in biker banter and is worth a wider airing.
Quote from Daily Telegraph Feb 7 2004
Link to Defra consultation paper is here
Also take a look at list of organisations consulted.
Lara is listed as being consulted. Obviously all organisations are equal some more equal than others.
Equally some of the organisations being consulted raises other questions eg The Inner London Magistrates Court Service. WHY FFS!
>>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Sunday 8th February 11:56
On another thread re cameras questions are raised whether it is possible in the current climate to have a truly objective study.
I would say its impossible to have any debate with the shower in Whitehall.
This issue got raised very briefly in biker banter and is worth a wider airing.
Quote from Daily Telegraph Feb 7 2004
dt said:
Goverment refuses to meet opponents of countryside driving ban
Goverment proposals to close thousands of miles of by-ways to motorists are being challenged by fans of exploring the countryside on two and four wheels.
They regard a consultation document published by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) as one of the biggest threats to face recreational motoring, writes Phil Llewellin.
Many tracks have been used by vehicles since prehistoric times, and by cars and motorcycles for a century. But Alun Michael, the minister for rural affairs, is unimpressed. "I do not think it makes sense that historic evidence of use by horse-drawn vehicles, or dedications for vehicular use at a time before the internal combustion engine existed, can give rise to rights to use modern mechanically-propelled vehicles," he states in the document's introduction.
In fact DEFRA's concerns about hooligans tearing along "green lanes" are echoed by most drivers and riders. Their spokesmen include Bill Troughgear, a retired local Government officer and chairman of Lara, the Land Access and Recreation Association. "Mr Michael is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, because those who misbehave are a very small minority," he says. "The document's scope also threatens rallies and classic trials, some of which date from motoring's earliest days"
DEFRA's supporters include landowners and the Rambler's Association, whose head of footpaths policy, Janet Davis, says: "The main reason for visiting the countryside are to experience he peace and quiet it offers, but this experience is destroyed by the incursions of mechanically-propelled vehicles into the rights-of-way network."
Alan Kind of Lara responds: " There are about 140,000 miles of rights of way for walkers in England and Wales. Motorised vehicles are permitted to use a mere five per cent of that network." Luke Edwardes-Evans, editor of Land Rover World magazine, agrees; "Walkers rarely encounter vehicles. Why doesn't the Government tackle illegal car dumping instead of persecuting responsible motorists?"
Michael has refused to meet Lara, but is seeing groups who want to ban vehicles. (my emphasis) According to Troughgear, "One could easily take the view that this is another part of the Government's anti-motorist campaign. What he's suggesting makes as much sense as closing the M6 because its users include a few criminals"
Views on the consultation document must be sent by March 19 to, William Propert-Lewis, Defra, Zone 1/01, 2 The Square, Temple Quay, Bristol BS1 6EB
Link to Defra consultation paper is here
Also take a look at list of organisations consulted.
Lara is listed as being consulted. Obviously all organisations are equal some more equal than others.
Equally some of the organisations being consulted raises other questions eg The Inner London Magistrates Court Service. WHY FFS!
>>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Sunday 8th February 11:56
Janet Davis said:
The main reason for visiting the countryside are to experience he peace and quiet it offers, but this experience is destroyed by the incursions of mechanically-propelled vehicles into the rights-of-way network.
And what about the people who live in the countryside? Just how exactly are we going to travel from place to place, public transport????
Maybe she thinks everyone in the countryside never leaves the village they were born in, walks to work on the local farm, and rides a horse to the market every week.
FunkyNige said:
The main reason for visiting the countryside are to experience he peace and quiet it offers, but this experience is destroyed by the incursions of mechanically-propelled vehicles into the rights-of-way network.
And what about the people who live in the countryside? Just how exactly are we going to travel from place to place, public transport????
Maybe she thinks everyone in the countryside never leaves the village they were born in, walks to work on the local farm, and rides a horse to the market every week.
exactly,
as somebody who lives in the countryside (and not where near London) I fail to understand what the point is?
does this mean that farmers (for example) are not longer going to be able to drive up rights of way to tend their livestock?
Well FiF, not wishing to sit on the fence I can see both points of view have merit.
Living in an area that can truly be called God's country on the edge of a National Park I can see the damage caused to green lanes by an ever increasing number of vehicles - 4 x 4 and two wheelers, which is not getting less, thereby detracting from the beauty of nature. A walk I often do up onto the Moors is now churned up that much it is worse than a ploughed field.
I can also see the problems that this causes to those who wish to partake of this beauty on foot, undisturbed, surefooted in peace and tranquility.
There are many Clubs, motoring and walking, who appreciate each others view and as such a compromise surely could be reached.
Unfortunately it seems it is the singletons, without Club rules, that cause the problems and almost impossible to bring to book.
Our LA appear to have had enough and moves are afoot to conform with Defra's wishes.
DVD
Living in an area that can truly be called God's country on the edge of a National Park I can see the damage caused to green lanes by an ever increasing number of vehicles - 4 x 4 and two wheelers, which is not getting less, thereby detracting from the beauty of nature. A walk I often do up onto the Moors is now churned up that much it is worse than a ploughed field.
I can also see the problems that this causes to those who wish to partake of this beauty on foot, undisturbed, surefooted in peace and tranquility.
There are many Clubs, motoring and walking, who appreciate each others view and as such a compromise surely could be reached.
Unfortunately it seems it is the singletons, without Club rules, that cause the problems and almost impossible to bring to book.
Our LA appear to have had enough and moves are afoot to conform with Defra's wishes.
DVD
I can see how irresponsible use of off-road vehicles (including motorbikes) can cause trouble/damage to lane's surface
BUT
In this enlightened age in which we make huge efforts to be totally inclusive of all parts of society then how the ferk are disabled people supposed to get to appreciate the country? They use motorised transport is what they use...this would put a stop to that.
Given that rights of way usable by motorised transport represents such a tiny part of the overall right-of-way network I can't see what the problem is -
OTHER THAN THIS GOVERNMENT'S CONTINUED PERSECUTION OF RURAL MINORITIES!
First hunters.
Now green laners.
They'll be coming for US next...
BUT
In this enlightened age in which we make huge efforts to be totally inclusive of all parts of society then how the ferk are disabled people supposed to get to appreciate the country? They use motorised transport is what they use...this would put a stop to that.
Given that rights of way usable by motorised transport represents such a tiny part of the overall right-of-way network I can't see what the problem is -
OTHER THAN THIS GOVERNMENT'S CONTINUED PERSECUTION OF RURAL MINORITIES!
First hunters.
Now green laners.
They'll be coming for US next...
scuffham said:
does this mean that farmers (for example) are not longer going to be able to drive up rights of way to tend their livestock?
A farmer has the right to cross the land with out a vehicular right of way.
I used to live on a farm:
A good number of years ago, I was on my bike, Honda CR500R or "scrambler" to those not so inclined.
I was checking water troughs a job I relished.....
As I went about my way at a not so leisurely speed, I was flagged down by a rambler.
He then proceeded to tell me, I was on a foot path and there was no right of way for motor vehicles there. Imediately shifting me into arrogant teenager mode, and getting the response.
Actually - The footpath is on the other side of that fence, your trespassing and I'm simply riding accross my fathers field!!
Before firing up the motor, showering him in mud, and roaring off.
-It's worth a mention that my dad did receive many complaints about my bike, and on many occasions. Often due to the baffles being blown out and the echo when riding through a valley at full bore
- "We
Actually DVD I'm finding the fence fairly uncomfortable too!
No disagreement about the problems with issues relating to the bad behaviour and consequent damage from an unregulated faction.
However I do object to the one sided and deliberately weighted political machinations, and where does it stop?
Next step banning mountain bikers?
Already in our local press there has been long rambling (pun quite intentional) communications about walkers objecting to mountain bikes in the forests just up the road from Villa FiF.
Seems they aren't happy with having bikes only allowed on around 5% of the paths and a purpose built mb track, but they want total exclusion.
Next thing will be the canal towpath, already plenty of noises about that.
Seems that however well one behaves, and as you might expect from yer owd mate DVD, I do have lights, a bell and slow right down to their speed for walkers but it doesn't stop the verbal and in one case physical abuse (attempted walking stick through spokes) from these trumped up self righteous busybodies who call themselves ramblers as just one example.
Tongue firmly in cheek, perhaps we'll see the Govt issuing Green laning permits and then installing ANPR cameras up your local track to check non permit holders.
No disagreement about the problems with issues relating to the bad behaviour and consequent damage from an unregulated faction.
However I do object to the one sided and deliberately weighted political machinations, and where does it stop?
Next step banning mountain bikers?
Already in our local press there has been long rambling (pun quite intentional) communications about walkers objecting to mountain bikes in the forests just up the road from Villa FiF.
Seems they aren't happy with having bikes only allowed on around 5% of the paths and a purpose built mb track, but they want total exclusion.
Next thing will be the canal towpath, already plenty of noises about that.
Seems that however well one behaves, and as you might expect from yer owd mate DVD, I do have lights, a bell and slow right down to their speed for walkers but it doesn't stop the verbal and in one case physical abuse (attempted walking stick through spokes) from these trumped up self righteous busybodies who call themselves ramblers as just one example.
Tongue firmly in cheek, perhaps we'll see the Govt issuing Green laning permits and then installing ANPR cameras up your local track to check non permit holders.
FunkyNige said:
The main reason for visiting the countryside are to experience he peace and quiet it offers, but this experience is destroyed by the incursions of mechanically-propelled vehicles into the rights-of-way network.
And what about the people who live in the countryside? Just how exactly are we going to travel from place to place, public transport????
Maybe she thinks everyone in the countryside never leaves the village they were born in, walks to work on the local farm, and rides a horse to the market every week.
Typical. You see Socialism works on a number of undesirable concepts they do their best to hide. One is the treatment of everyone as the same. Not equal, but the same. So politicians treat everyone like they don't have a car and live in luxury in London.
The other major undesirable is that kingpin of Marxism everyone ignores. For a Socialist state to function there can be no other opinions, so a one-party state moving towards the relinquishing of democracy is a central concept.
'Social Democracy' my arse. The government honestly thinks (no kidding, really), that the only reason people have and drive cars is because the buses are not frequent enough, hence bus lanes and former dual carriageways crunched up into bumper-to-bumper crawls
Live in "heart" of rural area! Hence - need car to commute! Most of my related "bigger cats!" live in equally remote areas. (Must be Swiss bit of us! Appenzeller mixed with Wensleydale 
one heck of a fondue!!) Agree with comments made re. bad behaviour by irresponsible twazaks! No excuse for any irresponsible use of a motorised vehicle anywhere!
But, about the Ramblers! How do they arrive in our collective nice rural backwaters? BY CAR! BIKE! Do they drive responsibly in my rural backdrop whilst looking for suitable parking space before their ramble? NOPE! Do they drive up these green lanes themselves? YUP! Do they drive carefully up these green lanes? NOPE!
Do they walk responsibly through the farmland and keep to the paths (which they demanded the farmer re-opened as their "right of way"? NOPE!
What about the pathways and wildlife these walkers damage up in the Lakes? Dales? Lancashire Hills? etc?
Having been brough up halfway up a remote mountain in Switzerland, nothing I like better than a nice long walk in "God's own country" be it here or back "home". But we have been brought up to respect the countryside and the mountains! Lost count of the number of cans, wrappers and other debris I have personally picked up after these ramblers! When challenged - do they respond with courtesy or respect! NOPE!
So andrew54 commented that society's standards are slipping into serious bad behaviour. Is it? Is the "ME! ME! ME!" attitude, or simply that political correctness has warped society to unacceptable levels! Usually as FiF says "one sided and politically weighted machinations!"
>> Edited by WildCat on Sunday 8th February 18:17
one heck of a fondue!!) Agree with comments made re. bad behaviour by irresponsible twazaks! No excuse for any irresponsible use of a motorised vehicle anywhere! But, about the Ramblers! How do they arrive in our collective nice rural backwaters? BY CAR! BIKE! Do they drive responsibly in my rural backdrop whilst looking for suitable parking space before their ramble? NOPE! Do they drive up these green lanes themselves? YUP! Do they drive carefully up these green lanes? NOPE!
Do they walk responsibly through the farmland and keep to the paths (which they demanded the farmer re-opened as their "right of way"? NOPE!
What about the pathways and wildlife these walkers damage up in the Lakes? Dales? Lancashire Hills? etc?
Having been brough up halfway up a remote mountain in Switzerland, nothing I like better than a nice long walk in "God's own country" be it here or back "home". But we have been brought up to respect the countryside and the mountains! Lost count of the number of cans, wrappers and other debris I have personally picked up after these ramblers! When challenged - do they respond with courtesy or respect! NOPE!
So andrew54 commented that society's standards are slipping into serious bad behaviour. Is it? Is the "ME! ME! ME!" attitude, or simply that political correctness has warped society to unacceptable levels! Usually as FiF says "one sided and politically weighted machinations!"
>> Edited by WildCat on Sunday 8th February 18:17
There was an alarming piece in this month's Classic Cars about this new law. Basically it will mean that the following, and all jobs associated with them, will be simply banned:
-Hillclimbs
-Scrambler events
-Amateur rallying
-4x4 Off-Roading
-Off-Road Karting
-Tank Driving days (leisure)
This has gone beyond civil liberties and 'environmentalism' (the art of keeping the world how you think you want it whilst pretending that the entire Human race isn't meant to exist) and into the realms of the anti-fun leagues of 1984.
Why is it that government 'consultation' only occurs with people they know will agree with them? It's just a step down from Stalinist Show Trials!
-Hillclimbs
-Scrambler events
-Amateur rallying
-4x4 Off-Roading
-Off-Road Karting
-Tank Driving days (leisure)
This has gone beyond civil liberties and 'environmentalism' (the art of keeping the world how you think you want it whilst pretending that the entire Human race isn't meant to exist) and into the realms of the anti-fun leagues of 1984.
Why is it that government 'consultation' only occurs with people they know will agree with them? It's just a step down from Stalinist Show Trials!
Well, if the ramblers want to enjoy the peace and quiet of the countryside, they won't want to be there during harvest time, what with all those noisy combine harvesters and the roar of the grain driers, nor during ploughing, nor at milking time, nor the shooting season (OK, they're trying to get that banned), nor lambing, etc.
Once agin, we see attempts being made to turn the countryside into a townie public park. Do they really think that this will prevent the serious offenders, the real cause of this argument, from thrashing around on the lanes?
It's a bit like anti-smacking laws attempting to prevent child abuse. The sick bastards who beat their children have always done it, and always will, law or no law, whereas the parents who apply a little smack for discipline are penalised by well intentioned but badly thought out legislation.
Do the ramblers really think that banning vehicles from green lanes will make the countryside any less noisy? I think it's time to remove the silencer from the Land Rover and drive past them ON MY PROPERTY.
Do they honestly believe that we all live in Constable's Haywain? Get a grip!
Once agin, we see attempts being made to turn the countryside into a townie public park. Do they really think that this will prevent the serious offenders, the real cause of this argument, from thrashing around on the lanes?
It's a bit like anti-smacking laws attempting to prevent child abuse. The sick bastards who beat their children have always done it, and always will, law or no law, whereas the parents who apply a little smack for discipline are penalised by well intentioned but badly thought out legislation.
Do the ramblers really think that banning vehicles from green lanes will make the countryside any less noisy? I think it's time to remove the silencer from the Land Rover and drive past them ON MY PROPERTY.
Do they honestly believe that we all live in Constable's Haywain? Get a grip!
v8thunder said:Did they/you mean "trials"? "Hillclimbs" (for cars) take place on tarmac - Streaky
There was an alarming piece in this month's Classic Cars about this new law. Basically it will mean that the following, and all jobs associated with them, will be simply banned:
-Hillclimbs
-Scrambler events
-Amateur rallying
-4x4 Off-Roading
-Off-Road Karting
-Tank Driving days (leisure)
>> Edited by streaky on Tuesday 2nd March 09:33
[quote=streakyDid they/you mean "trials"? "Hillclimbs" (for cars) take place on tarmac - Streaky[/quote]
Isn't it tarmac roads they're thinking of closing? There are lots of signposts up here that say 'By-way to xxxxx', yet the roads they point up are normal, tarmacced lanes. There was talk of closing some of these lanes to cars a while back, so I assumed this new story was a continuation of that.
Isn't it tarmac roads they're thinking of closing? There are lots of signposts up here that say 'By-way to xxxxx', yet the roads they point up are normal, tarmacced lanes. There was talk of closing some of these lanes to cars a while back, so I assumed this new story was a continuation of that.
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