"Since 1997/8 pursuit deathes increased nearly 6x"
Discussion
In Daily mail today, story about 11yr girl who lost a leg while crossing a road, at what appears from the photo, to be at a crossing by an unmarked police car on a pursuit.
At very end - since 1997/8 there has been a 6 fold increase in pursuit deathes, with 44 killed in 2001.
And the DfT are saying we should slow down and take care..
At very end - since 1997/8 there has been a 6 fold increase in pursuit deathes, with 44 killed in 2001.
And the DfT are saying we should slow down and take care..
And those figures for police crashes are included in the total figures for KSI caused by excessive or inappropriate use of speed.
In Cambs a met. police driver under training in pursuit techniques came around a corner on the A10 in excess of 100 mph and hit a nurse who was stationery in a queue of traffic.
She was killed and he got totally away with it. Anyone else would be in the nick, and rightly so.
You couldn't make it up.
In Cambs a met. police driver under training in pursuit techniques came around a corner on the A10 in excess of 100 mph and hit a nurse who was stationery in a queue of traffic.
She was killed and he got totally away with it. Anyone else would be in the nick, and rightly so.
You couldn't make it up.
Cooperman said:
And those figures for police crashes are included in the total figures for KSI caused by excessive or inappropriate use of speed.
In Cambs a met. police driver under training in pursuit techniques came around a corner on the A10 in excess of 100 mph and hit a nurse who was stationery in a queue of traffic.
She was killed and he got totally away with it. Anyone else would be in the nick, and rightly so.
You couldn't make it up.
Unbelieveable...
Cooperman said:
And those figures for police crashes are included in the total figures for KSI caused by excessive or inappropriate use of speed.
Well there's one way to cut the KSI figure without involving any cost.
But why is it increasing... worse driving(from the Police!), more pursuits, more unmarked cars?
IMHO police driver training has declined in content and relatively inexperienced police officers are allowed to drive without passing the old Class 1 training course as defined by Hendon.
In general I think that the dedicated traffic patrol officers are first class, but the average young 'plod' driving things like Astras and the like are really not very good.
I once had to get out and tell a very young copper in Northampton that if he continued to drive in a 40 mph limit 10ft off my bumper in the wet I would give him a braking test and when there was a dent in the back of my BMW and in the front of his Escort 1.4 we could go to the plod shop and discuss payment for the damage with his guv'nor. When we started off again he left a huge gap. More recently I had to stop and remonstrate with a couple of cops in a marked car from Bedford who cut me up at a T-junction when they indicated to turn right and then decided to turn left without looking as I was filtering down the inside. They nearly took the front off my 7-series, so we had a few words and the driver apologised - very reluctantly I might add.
They are only human and make the same mistakes as the rest of us, but they are not sufficiently trained for high speed driving, except the traffic boys, and that's why they crash.
Of course, one must have some sympathy. It's not the individual officers' fault that they don't get properly trained, it's the system, and they must respond to situations. They are sort of 'damned if they do respond at high speed and damned if they don't'.
In general I think that the dedicated traffic patrol officers are first class, but the average young 'plod' driving things like Astras and the like are really not very good.
I once had to get out and tell a very young copper in Northampton that if he continued to drive in a 40 mph limit 10ft off my bumper in the wet I would give him a braking test and when there was a dent in the back of my BMW and in the front of his Escort 1.4 we could go to the plod shop and discuss payment for the damage with his guv'nor. When we started off again he left a huge gap. More recently I had to stop and remonstrate with a couple of cops in a marked car from Bedford who cut me up at a T-junction when they indicated to turn right and then decided to turn left without looking as I was filtering down the inside. They nearly took the front off my 7-series, so we had a few words and the driver apologised - very reluctantly I might add.
They are only human and make the same mistakes as the rest of us, but they are not sufficiently trained for high speed driving, except the traffic boys, and that's why they crash.
Of course, one must have some sympathy. It's not the individual officers' fault that they don't get properly trained, it's the system, and they must respond to situations. They are sort of 'damned if they do respond at high speed and damned if they don't'.
rodney59 said:
And those figures for police crashes are included in the total figures for KSI caused by excessive or inappropriate use of speed.
Well there's one way to cut the KSI figure without involving any cost.
But why is it increasing... worse driving(from the Police!), more pursuits, more unmarked cars?
Driver training is still very good, but it is a shadow of its former self. It used to be by far the best in the World. Now it's just very good.
If anyone would like to contribute specific facts, I'd be very interested indeed. It seems that there were big changes in the early 90s with the skills pool being broken up, "Class 1" being renamed to "Advanced" and courses being greatly shortened.
I'd like to write a fuill article about this - if any BiB want to get in touch with good information you can email me at psmith@safespeed.org.uk
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
In Nottingham last week, youngsters being chased by police, were killed in collision with another car, and police car on a call Killed a child pedestrian somewhere else.reports are played down, and one never hears the result of the Police on Police inquiry, unlike the publicity drummed up by the Anti,s when public are involved.If you look at some of the TV programmes on UK force,s pursuit driving, and the statements that a police chase inflames the situation,why do the chase,s still go on , other forces use helicopters.Enough revenue now from Scamera,s to give a chopper to every force in the land.The Hendon days, are gone for ever and training isnt the only solution to the Problem.Giving joyride Kids a slap on the wrist and banning them from driving, when they dont have a licence isnt the way to reduce police chase.s.Having a Judiciary who live in the real world might.
It's a difficult call for the police. If they see a stolen car and don't try to apprehend the driver and passsengers they are accused of not doing their job. If they do respond but an accident ensues, they are accused of doing their job badly. The Mags give very soft punishments when the thieves are caught.
Is it the suggestion that the police should not try to stop stolen cars, just let them drive away?
If the public want a police force to respond to crime then fast movement is essential. If someone was breaking into your home and you called the police, would you want the police car to obey all speed limits?
I feel somewhat sorry for the BiB who do a very difficult job, made more difficult by the public attitudes engendered by the Scamera Partnerships. They cause Mr. Average Plod to be viewed as a tax collector for the gov't and that is not really fair. Now the Chief Constables are another matter, but should we view them as police officers or as managers and accountants?
Our BiB friends on here must be able to comment on this and tell me whether I'm right or wrong.
Is it the suggestion that the police should not try to stop stolen cars, just let them drive away?
If the public want a police force to respond to crime then fast movement is essential. If someone was breaking into your home and you called the police, would you want the police car to obey all speed limits?
I feel somewhat sorry for the BiB who do a very difficult job, made more difficult by the public attitudes engendered by the Scamera Partnerships. They cause Mr. Average Plod to be viewed as a tax collector for the gov't and that is not really fair. Now the Chief Constables are another matter, but should we view them as police officers or as managers and accountants?
Our BiB friends on here must be able to comment on this and tell me whether I'm right or wrong.
I have spoken on this subject before and it always raises its ugly head.
Basically these stats now include any KSI where a police vehicle has been involved. This now includes where a Police vehicle was in the ‘vicinity’ this could mean that the police vehicle had nothing at all to do with the collision.
This also includes where an offender had been pursued but the pursuit has been terminated by the Police driver or control room. If the offender then crashes this will also be included.
I wouldn’t really take too much notice of the statistics. Police driver training is getting better and better and we are being told/deciding to terminate more and more.
It’s getting to a situation where we live in a blame culture. When an offender in a stolen car kills somebody the media prefer to blame the police as this makes good headlines.
It will soon be the situation where, due to public opinion, Police will no longer pursue criminals. All this will do is crime rates will rise, more people will be killed on the roads as why would they need to slow down as they can’t be stopped.
I personally believe that all criminals should be pursued and prosecuted. Unless we get back up from the public then pursuits will stop and the criminals will rule the roads.
It’s up to you.
cptsideways said:
I would like to see the figures split between traffic & noddy patrol cars.
Then we'll see where the blame lies, I think the highly trained police will be the lesser of the figures for sure.
"noddy patrol cars" are sometimes crewed by officers who are traffic trained, but have returned to district work out of choice, or have gained promotion.
A larger vehicle does not always mean a better driver.
Besides, district or 'noddy' cars are not generally authorised to pursue, unless crewed by a suitable driver.
It is my own view, plus force policy not to pursue if you know the driver, and in fact there are many many variables. You don't just get in and do a starsky and hutch.
silverback mike said:
I would like to see the figures split between traffic & noddy patrol cars.
Then we'll see where the blame lies, I think the highly trained police will be the lesser of the figures for sure.
"noddy patrol cars" are sometimes crewed by officers who are traffic trained, but have returned to district work out of choice, or have gained promotion.
A larger vehicle does not always mean a better driver.
Besides, district or 'noddy' cars are not generally authorised to pursue, unless crewed by a suitable driver.
It is my own view, plus force policy not to pursue if you know the driver, and in fact there are many many variables. You don't just get in and do a starsky and hutch.
try telling that to some officers.
iv seen a few that think there starsky and hutch.
Roadrage said:
cptsideways said:
I would like to see the figures split between traffic & noddy patrol cars.
Then we'll see where the blame lies, I think the highly trained police will be the lesser of the figures for sure.
"noddy patrol cars" are sometimes crewed by officers who are traffic trained, but have returned to district work out of choice, or have gained promotion.
A larger vehicle does not always mean a better driver.
Besides, district or 'noddy' cars are not generally authorised to pursue, unless crewed by a suitable driver.
It is my own view, plus force policy not to pursue if you know the driver, and in fact there are many many variables. You don't just get in and do a starsky and hutch.
try telling that to some officers.
iv seen a few that think there starsky and hutch.
No doubt you have, and more importantly so have I.
There is no place for that, as there is no place for people getting injured. As there is no place for the scrote going through red lights at 100 mph when not being pursued.
Which happens.
I've seen results of that too.
Once again we see the police being used as easy targets. As so many of us agree, no-one is a perfect driver, and I would even include the Class 1 trained police, although I would suggest that they are better than most.
Here is a classic case of statistics being misused to create the mistaken impression that it is the police alone who are killing "innocent" members of the public. While it is deplorable that a mother and kids, for example, might be killed during a pursuit, unless the police car hit them, as opposed to the car being pursued, then the blame must lie with those that are refusing to stop. In these days of unregistered, cloned or stolen cars, simply noting the licence plate is not enough.
Of course, the apparent reduction of Trafpol on our roads only seems to encourage all the bad drivers. The link between more cameras, less Trafpol and the increase in Drunk driving, TWOCing, cloning, unregistered, untaxed, no MOT, etc cannot be ignored.
Here is a classic case of statistics being misused to create the mistaken impression that it is the police alone who are killing "innocent" members of the public. While it is deplorable that a mother and kids, for example, might be killed during a pursuit, unless the police car hit them, as opposed to the car being pursued, then the blame must lie with those that are refusing to stop. In these days of unregistered, cloned or stolen cars, simply noting the licence plate is not enough.
Of course, the apparent reduction of Trafpol on our roads only seems to encourage all the bad drivers. The link between more cameras, less Trafpol and the increase in Drunk driving, TWOCing, cloning, unregistered, untaxed, no MOT, etc cannot be ignored.
mad jock said:
Once again we see the police being used as easy targets. As so many of us agree, no-one is a perfect driver, and I would even include the Class 1 trained police, although I would suggest that they are better than most.
Here is a classic case of statistics being misused to create the mistaken impression that it is the police alone who are killing "innocent" members of the public. While it is deplorable that a mother and kids, for example, might be killed during a pursuit, unless the police car hit them, as opposed to the car being pursued, then the blame must lie with those that are refusing to stop. In these days of unregistered, cloned or stolen cars, simply noting the licence plate is not enough.
Of course, the apparent reduction of Trafpol on our roads only seems to encourage all the bad drivers. The link between more cameras, less Trafpol and the increase in Drunk driving, TWOCing, cloning, unregistered, untaxed, no MOT, etc cannot be ignored.
Valid points there madjock.
There is a thin line to tread on this. The human nature approach when starting to pursue an offender is that the red mist descends. Ie "I will get him no matter what" This is where problems start, and safety goes out of the window.
Proper training, and a sensible approach brings on a calm driving manner. If you remain calm and try to anticipate manoevres (sp) and plan where stinger will go, or to contain the offender, then you have the upper hand.
But unfortunately those that are being pursued have no regard for human life, and will fire themselves through red lights at excessive speeds, or mount pavements etc etc.
As a pursuing officer I will not, and will go through a red light either in first gear or when I am absolutely certain that it is clear.
There are a few offenders who can actually drive quite well, but the majority are drugged up lunatics who will stop at nothing including ramming a mother and children. The salient point is that he/she is obviously running from something so has therefore broken the law.
If this dangerous type of behaviour is evident, say at midday when roads are heavily populated then a pursuit will be abandoned.
However, if it is the same scenario, only at 3am where there is nothing on the road and no pedestrians about, then off we go.
As you say, if there is a police car within a mile of an offending vehicle, the police get the blame for the death of an innocent person, even if only en route to the incident.
It pays to keep a calm outlook, and if you have to back off, then they will come another day.
However, an unmarked car should not pursue, no matter what.
>> Edited by silverback mike on Wednesday 18th February 21:56
Apologies to those class 1 drivers who've opted for the Bobby on the Beat Option, the bit about Noddy Cars!. (I can understand wanting to go back after seeing too much road carnage etc)
What I meant was properly trained trafpol & the bobby in his panda car. Obviously there is a difference in training & ability.
But are there seperate figures or are they all together, be it pursuit or getting somewhere quickly?
What I meant was properly trained trafpol & the bobby in his panda car. Obviously there is a difference in training & ability.
But are there seperate figures or are they all together, be it pursuit or getting somewhere quickly?
silverback mike said:
silverback mike said:
cptsideways said:
I would like to see the figures split between traffic & noddy patrol cars.
Then we'll see where the blame lies, I think the highly trained police will be the lesser of the figures for sure.
"noddy patrol cars" are sometimes crewed by officers who are traffic trained, but have returned to district work out of choice, or have gained promotion.
A larger vehicle does not always mean a better driver.
Besides, district or 'noddy' cars are not generally authorised to pursue, unless crewed by a suitable driver.
It is my own view, plus force policy not to pursue if you know the driver, and in fact there are many many variables. You don't just get in and do a starsky and hutch.
try telling that to some officers.
iv seen a few that think there starsky and hutch.
No doubt you have, and more importantly so have I.
There is no place for that, as there is no place for people getting injured. As there is no place for the scrote going through red lights at 100 mph when not being pursued.
Which happens.
I've seen results of that too.
yes so have I and It aint prity.
and on that I agrey with you.
my post want meant as, a pop at the bib
But I do think its a bad idear to start a pursuet often with the younger kids.
as ushally they will panic and its a guaranteed mess.
I dont know wether the bib do any training where they
are acting as the pursued and not the pursuer.
but still phsycologicly it wouldent be the same pressur that there under but the would get an idear.
do they ?
If not I would be a good idear as the pursuer`s job
is easyer than pursueds job, as there the one setting the pace. The pursuer just has to keep it.
and wait for them to make a mistake.
witch the young one will prity soon.
In answer to your post, I wont press the quote button as we will use half a page.
Yes, we do get training over and over again in being the pursued vehicle, as indeed the pursuing vehicle.
As you say, there are cases when you do not pursue. If a pursuit is started that is dangerous, nowadays it is aborted very quickly.
Also, with the Helicopter available at all times, it puts most potential offenders off. But with those that persist, pursuit and tpac are the option.
And at no time (in my force anyway) does an unmarked car pursue anything. If an unmarked vehicle sees anything, it calls a marked unit in to deal. Catching a criminal is the object, but death of innocents is not. If pursuit is called off then in my view, they will come another day.
Yes, we do get training over and over again in being the pursued vehicle, as indeed the pursuing vehicle.
As you say, there are cases when you do not pursue. If a pursuit is started that is dangerous, nowadays it is aborted very quickly.
Also, with the Helicopter available at all times, it puts most potential offenders off. But with those that persist, pursuit and tpac are the option.
And at no time (in my force anyway) does an unmarked car pursue anything. If an unmarked vehicle sees anything, it calls a marked unit in to deal. Catching a criminal is the object, but death of innocents is not. If pursuit is called off then in my view, they will come another day.
silverback mike said:
You don't just get in and do a starsky and hutch.
Very sensible. But why am I somehow disappointed?
I suppose we want all our motorsport heroes to be "Gentlemen Drivers" and our policemen to be a cross between the aforementioned Starsky and Hutch and Inspector Morse.
I suppose that's what it is like - living in the real world.
Last night I went to a ROSPA lecture on Advanced Driving and during an exercise (we all went to the front to demonstrate our push-pull technique on a dummy steering wheel - I kid you not
) our lecturer put on a demonstration drive by a Class 1. Blimey he could drive.
Absolutely massive speed at times - but I've seen videos of idiots tooling about at 175mph and you are constantly winceing - but with this guy you didn't. Not once.
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