police won't provide photo - how do i stand

[tvr totty]

hi,

had a reminder for a speed ticket, never had the first one, asked for a photo on the basis we couldn't remember who was driving the car.

also we want to check the speed from the markings on the photo.

the letter back from mr plod - lst paragraph states, they have examined the photo and it is insufficient use to identify the driver.

we still want to see it ref checking speed. shall we just write and ask... does the photo clearly show the speed on, they are saying the photos are only to place the vehicle at the location at the time and date of the offence. nothing about confirming speed.

our point is that we just pulled out of a turning, straight into slow moving traffic, and really are struggling to believe that we were doing 50 in a 30mph. also the junction we pulled out of is in between the signs that show its now gone from national to 30mph.

do we have a hope???

[nonegreen]

tvr totty said:

hi, had a reminder for a speed ticket, never had the first one, asked for a photo on the basis we couldn't remember who was driving the car. also we want to check the speed from the markings on the photo. the letter back from mr plod - lst paragraph states, they have examined the photo and it is insufficient use to identify the driver. we still want to see it ref checking speed. shall we just write and ask... does the photo clearly show the speed on, they are saying the photos are only to place the vehicle at the location at the time and date of the offence. nothing about confirming speed. our point is that we just pulled out of a turning, straight into slow moving traffic, and really are struggling to believe that we were doing 50 in a 30mph. also the junction we pulled out of is in between the signs that show its now gone from national to 30mph. do we have a hope???

You are 3/4 the way there have a look on sp&tl topics its all there. Just so long as you didn't sign anything.

>> Edited by nonegreen on Wednesday 18th February 16:25

[tvr totty]

much appreciated, we wrote on the reminder that we had not received anything previous and needed the photo


fingers crossed

[streaky]

tvr totty said:

[ ... ] also the junction we pulled out of is in between the signs that show its now gone from national to 30mph.

If the junction you pulled out from was on a road with a higher limit than 30, there should have been 30 limit signs at the junction on the road from which you pulled out. If not, then you could reasonably assume that the limit of the road you pulled out from applied until such time as you either saw a repeater (e.g. 30) sign or recognised that the lamp-posts were 200 yards (or less) apart - implying a 30 limit.

So, if the camera is less than 200 yards from the junction and there was no 30 sign at the junction (on the road you pulled out from - assuming it had a higher limit), then that's a defence (IMHO, IANAL) - Streaky

[safespeed]

tvr totty said:

... we couldn't remember who was driving the car.

S172(4) of the Road traffic Act 1988 states that you cannot be found guilty of failing to supply information if you do not know who was driving and cannot with reasonable diligence determine who was driving at the time of the offence.

This is a "statutory defence" and if you can convince the court that you have done all you could to try to identify the driver then the court will not convict you.

It's the defence recently and sucessfully used by the Hamiltons and is sometimes now known as the "Hamilton defence".

Asking for the photo is an excellent first step in creating a good Hamilton defence.

I'm also interested in the part where you tell us that you never received the first notice. If the first notice was not sent, and the second arrived outside the 14 day maximum allowed under the law, then the notice has not been served and the prosecution may not continue.

You need to find out if the first notice was sent and if they have evidence of the fact. I'm not sure what the best way to go about this is. Perhaps it would be a good time to see a solicitor.

Naming a driver on the form, when you do not know for sure the driver would in itself be a serious offence - so don't do that.

If the two suggestions above fail, then not signing the form is the next best option.

Best Regards
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk

[tvr totty]

thanks, i am going to write again - still requesting the photos, see what they come up with.

they have stated in their last letter to reply to the notice asap, but what happens if we can't say who was driving and they won't send the photos, do we say we want to go to court.

regards

[hornet]

If they can't identify the driver from the photo how do they reasonably expect you to be able to? Sounds like they're clutching at straws and hoping you'll roll over and take it - can't see that they have any evidence for a prosecution at all, so don't let them try it on.

[roosevelt]

See yesterdays post;

www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=82694&f=10&h=0

[tonyout]

www.pepipoo.com is the place for all speeding related queries.... they really seem to know there stuff over there :-)

[hertsbiker]

no photo = no case to answer!

[tvr totty]

thanks, still waiting for their response. sent recorded delivery letter stating that we did not want to just take pot luck as to who was driving as that would be naughty too!!.

just waiting to see what happens. do we just wait this one out if no photo materialises, as we have proof we requested the photo twice??

[jacko lah]

tvr totty said:

thanks, still waiting for their response. sent recorded delivery letter stating that we did not want to just take pot luck as to who was driving as that would be naughty too!!. just waiting to see what happens. do we just wait this one out if no photo materialises, as we have proof we requested the photo twice??

Once you get the photo you need to write again asking for the make, model and serial number of the camera, and also last timer calibration date. (That'll get them confused).

If you get this info, you can contact the manufacturer and ask them to confirm the likely allowable error in time, asking specifically for mean and standard deviation. Then you need to count the markings - In your favour as it's often subjective, and see whether at the 10th percentile of inaccuracy you can't 'prove' that the car was NOT speeding. The speed which made the camera go off was possibly a speeding train on a bridge next to the road.

Alternatively you could admit that it was you and pay up !!!!

[-bacchus-]

According to my local Scamership:

The photogrphic evidence is to assist with identifying the driver only. You are also not entitled to see the calibration certificate and details of the enforcement officer involved, untill you go to court, for a not guilty plea.

[volvod5_dude]

tvr totty said:

much appreciated, we wrote on the reminder that we had not received anything previous and needed the photo fingers crossed

I am in exactly the same position, well nearly. Had a NIP for an alleged offence at the end of Sept 03. 80 in 50 mph temporary limit. Asked for the photos, they were duly sent but I couldn't identify who was driving. Then they sent a second NIP with a further 28 days grace. I wrote and said it was either me or my wife, didn't sign the letter though and didn't send back the NIP. Had a letter back basically quoting the Hamilton defence. Haven't heard anything more since early December.

So best of luck, don't give in!!

[jacko lah]

-bacchus- said:

According to my local Scamership: The photogrphic evidence is to assist with identifying the driver only. You are also not entitled to see the calibration certificate and details of the enforcement officer involved, untill you go to court, for a not guilty plea.

How do I know what to plead ?

Er sorry your honour, the police have refused to give me all the evidence they have, which I believe is the reason numerous convicted criminals have been freed on appeal.

[DanL]

jacko lah said:

-bacchus- said: According to my local Scamership: The photogrphic evidence is to assist with identifying the driver only. You are also not entitled to see the calibration certificate and details of the enforcement officer involved, untill you go to court, for a not guilty plea. How do I know what to plead ? Er sorry your honour, the police have refused to give me all the evidence they have, which I believe is the reason numerous convicted criminals have been freed on appeal.

They'll provide evidence to you if you decide to go to court. At the moment you're not putting in a plea as such, just deciding whether to accept their offer of points and a fine, rather than a court appearance. If you accept this, you sign and admit guilt. If you want to fight it, it'll go to court.

Not sure how they're going to prove it was you driving if they can't tell from a photo though.

Dan

[hornet]

Chatting to a guy at work who was recently in this position. NIP, couldn't remember who was driving so asked for photo. Got told by scamera mob that photo wasn't especially clear and could he just nominate a driver for the FPN to save lots of messy court business. He told what they could do with that and waited for a court date. Went to court and the CPS admitted they couldn't identify a driver and the case was thrown out and my work colleague was awarded costs to cover the day off work, travelling, postage etc etc.

The minute you're asked to nominate someone becuase the photo isn't clear you can be fairly sure the CPS aren't holding any trump cards.

[fergus]

if you go to court, you have a right to see the evidence they will try and use against you. Get the photo off them, or tell them via your solicitor to p1ss off and stop wasting your time.

[big_treacle]

I had a NIP telling me I was speeding. Wrote them asking for photo evidence to ID driver. They said they couldn't ID driver and I could nominate one. I threw NIP in the bin. That was in July so I'm confident I'm clear.
Don't sign anything

[fergus]

remember statute of limitations....