Please help - advice for Mrs H.(speeding summons)
Discussion
Hi all..
Mrs H (and I ) would very much appreciate some advice regarding a speeding incident (38 in a 30, mobile camera van) which happened before christmas.. it seems to be getting WAY out of hand..
The current sequence of events is as follows (written by Mrs H):
Received NIP from Humberside Ticket Office (dated 24/12/03) for the offence of 38mph in a 30 zone on 20/12/03 in Howden.
The journey we were making that day was from Herefordshire to North Yorkshire so my husband and I shared the driving. Subsequently, I was unable to identify the driver at the time of the offence. Therefore, I wrote straight back to the Ticket Office, filling in the “Driver and Keeper Statement” as best I could explaining that it was one of the two of us, and asking for a copy of the photograph as this is the only way I could establish the driver at the time.
Received a letter (dated 16/01/04) from the Ticket Office describing their “concerns” at my inability to identify the driver and saying that I could view a copy of the photo they had only by visiting the ticket office in Yorkshire between Monday and Friday. The letter also stated that they would be issuing a further NIP.
Received another NIP (dated 19/01/) several days later.
After visiting my local police station for advice, wrote straight back (20/1/04), reiterating that I couldn’t fill in second the NIP as I didn’t know who was driving and wouldn’t without seeing the photographic evidence. Also, pointed out that it would be cheaper and less hassle for me to falsely complete the NIP and take the fine/points than to take a day off work and drive the 400+ mile journey to the ticket office. I also suggested that, if they couldn’t release a copy of the photo to me, maybe they could send it to my local police station and I could view it there.
Received a letter (dated 16th Feb) from the Ticket Office requesting I provide them with my daytime telephone number so they could send a copy of the photograph to my local police station.
18th February - Sent details of my telephone number.
Early March (have yet to confirm this date with my local police) – Received a visit at home from my village police officer with 3 x photographs of my vehicle taken at the time offence. The photographs clearly showed me as the driver and my husband as the passenger. I confirmed that I could identify myself as the driver and therefore the officer said that he would contact the Ticket Office with this information and that the Ticket Office would be in contact with me.
16th April (Friday) - Received a badly worded/ambiguous letter from the Ticket Office (dated 15th April) saying that as I had failed to provide details of the driver to them within 28 days (of what I’m not sure ?) they would start proceedings against me unless I responded with the driver details within 7 days of the date of the letter. By the time I opened this letter it was after 5pm so I was unable to contact the office as they close at 4:30pm and are not open at weekends.
17th April (Saturday) Received a letter from the Ticket Office (dated 16th April) stating that because they had received no response from me to their earlier letter (dated the previous day !) that they are commencing proceedings against me for failing to provide details when requested and the original speeding charge
Any advice at all.. We gave the driver details to a Police officer in an oral statement on request.. what more could we have done..?
Many thanks, and sorry for the long post.
Cheers
Matt
>>> Edited by M@H on Monday 19th April 10:34
Mrs H (and I ) would very much appreciate some advice regarding a speeding incident (38 in a 30, mobile camera van) which happened before christmas.. it seems to be getting WAY out of hand..
The current sequence of events is as follows (written by Mrs H):
Received NIP from Humberside Ticket Office (dated 24/12/03) for the offence of 38mph in a 30 zone on 20/12/03 in Howden.
The journey we were making that day was from Herefordshire to North Yorkshire so my husband and I shared the driving. Subsequently, I was unable to identify the driver at the time of the offence. Therefore, I wrote straight back to the Ticket Office, filling in the “Driver and Keeper Statement” as best I could explaining that it was one of the two of us, and asking for a copy of the photograph as this is the only way I could establish the driver at the time.
Received a letter (dated 16/01/04) from the Ticket Office describing their “concerns” at my inability to identify the driver and saying that I could view a copy of the photo they had only by visiting the ticket office in Yorkshire between Monday and Friday. The letter also stated that they would be issuing a further NIP.
Received another NIP (dated 19/01/) several days later.
After visiting my local police station for advice, wrote straight back (20/1/04), reiterating that I couldn’t fill in second the NIP as I didn’t know who was driving and wouldn’t without seeing the photographic evidence. Also, pointed out that it would be cheaper and less hassle for me to falsely complete the NIP and take the fine/points than to take a day off work and drive the 400+ mile journey to the ticket office. I also suggested that, if they couldn’t release a copy of the photo to me, maybe they could send it to my local police station and I could view it there.
Received a letter (dated 16th Feb) from the Ticket Office requesting I provide them with my daytime telephone number so they could send a copy of the photograph to my local police station.
18th February - Sent details of my telephone number.
Early March (have yet to confirm this date with my local police) – Received a visit at home from my village police officer with 3 x photographs of my vehicle taken at the time offence. The photographs clearly showed me as the driver and my husband as the passenger. I confirmed that I could identify myself as the driver and therefore the officer said that he would contact the Ticket Office with this information and that the Ticket Office would be in contact with me.
16th April (Friday) - Received a badly worded/ambiguous letter from the Ticket Office (dated 15th April) saying that as I had failed to provide details of the driver to them within 28 days (of what I’m not sure ?) they would start proceedings against me unless I responded with the driver details within 7 days of the date of the letter. By the time I opened this letter it was after 5pm so I was unable to contact the office as they close at 4:30pm and are not open at weekends.
17th April (Saturday) Received a letter from the Ticket Office (dated 16th April) stating that because they had received no response from me to their earlier letter (dated the previous day !) that they are commencing proceedings against me for failing to provide details when requested and the original speeding charge
Any advice at all.. We gave the driver details to a Police officer in an oral statement on request.. what more could we have done..?
Many thanks, and sorry for the long post.
Cheers
Matt
>>> Edited by M@H on Monday 19th April 10:34
Matt,
if you've the nerve...I'd spin it out until it gets to court, whereby I'd keep all your evidence etc..... (make sure that you've told them on time that you recognise yourself etc and are willing to pay) show them up for what they are incompent useless inane vergetable hitlerite bureaucrats ...........
assuming all was done registered post?
>> Edited by JMGS4 on Monday 19th April 10:51
if you've the nerve...I'd spin it out until it gets to court, whereby I'd keep all your evidence etc..... (make sure that you've told them on time that you recognise yourself etc and are willing to pay) show them up for what they are incompent useless inane vergetable hitlerite bureaucrats ...........
assuming all was done registered post?
>> Edited by JMGS4 on Monday 19th April 10:51
Supplying the information orally does not comply with S172. DPP v Broomfield & Francis v DPP.
How a member of the public is supposed to know that, particularly when the law doesn't say it is another matter, but there you go.
You should return the NIP immediately (by recorded delivery). If you no longer have the NIP, you should supply all the requested information in a letter, and signed by the NIP addressee.
How a member of the public is supposed to know that, particularly when the law doesn't say it is another matter, but there you go.
You should return the NIP immediately (by recorded delivery). If you no longer have the NIP, you should supply all the requested information in a letter, and signed by the NIP addressee.
jeffreyarcher said:
Supplying the information orally does not comply with S172. DPP v Broomfield & Francis v DPP.
How a member of the public is supposed to know that, particularly when the law doesn't say it is another matter, but there you go.
Thats the stupidity of the whole thing.. we thought we'd done everything correctly, and we get a summons
jeffreyarcher said:
You should return the NIP immediately (by recorded delivery). If you no longer have the NIP, you should supply all the requested information in a letter, and signed by the NIP addressee.
One wonders why they don't just tell you these things.. they already have a signed letter stating that it was either her or me, and a statement from an officer of the law saying Louise said it was her.. muppets!
@ JMGS4.. Agree 100% with your sentiment, giving someone 7 days to comply with a written request then summons'ing them the following day is
rediculous and I'd love to bring it to the attention of a judge, however I imagine it would just get his back up as obviously Louise is related to Satan for doing 38 in a 30. 
..didn't think of registered post, however they have responded to all correspondence so far they can't say they never received it.. will do so from now on.
Is there any merit at all in going to court..? Now they have started proceedings I assume the Fixed Penalty "Offer" of 3 pts etc has expired so do we have any choice.??
Cheers,
Matt.
I don't know whether you can get the NIP paid and the court case dropped, but there would seem to be grounds...legal insurance? if yes, get your solicitor to write.......if not write to them (if you don't wnat to go to court) and explain your reasons for refuting their position....
Mind you the law is an ass, and you may get pinged anyway...useless feckless bureaucrats....
Mind you the law is an ass, and you may get pinged anyway...useless feckless bureaucrats....
jeffreyarcher said:
M@H said:
<...> then summons'ing them the following day is
You didn't say that you'd had a summons, only a letter; a 'threat'. That changes things. It's now too late to stop it, so don't send the details as I suggested before, otherwise they can get you for speeding too.
My mistake.. its not a summons, its a nasty letter saying as we haven't responded we're off to court.. you don't think they've actually done anything about it "legally" yet..? sorry
>> Edited by M@H on Monday 19th April 12:17
M@H said:
I'm wondering if that as they "offered" a seven day period in their letter (a.k.a. contract) of the 15th, but then acted upon the lack of result from it on the 16th, whether they are in breach of contract/procedure...?
..some days I wish I'd studied law.
Matt.
trust me - you dont.
superlightr said:
I'm wondering if that as they "offered" a seven day period in their letter (a.k.a. contract) of the 15th, but then acted upon the lack of result from it on the 16th, whether they are in breach of contract/procedure...?
..some days I wish I'd studied law.
Matt.
trust me - you dont.
..so what's the answer then..?
Write back to the Ticket Office, politely explaining all that has gone on and their mistake and tell them under the circumstances you should be offered the Conditional Offer (60 notes 3 points) thereby saving valuable Court time and red faces.
By sound of it an information will not have been laid at this stage but probably will be so within the next month when a summons will be churned out.
DVD
By sound of it an information will not have been laid at this stage but probably will be so within the next month when a summons will be churned out.
DVD
OK so we got the local PC who brought the photos round to phone the ticket office...apparently (Louise writes):
They had already started proceedings against me but have apparently cancelled them and will not take me to court if I complete the NIP and send it to them within 7 days !!
Apparently they couldn't explain how they had managed to send out 2 letters on consecutive days saying that my 7 days were up.... it seems they can't even admit to their own incompetence.... no don't bother apologising for my stress due to your own inabilities !!
If I send them the form within 7 days that will alledgedly be it.... however judging by past performance I'll doubtless receive a summons within the next month or two anyway....
...
So should we get it in writing that tthe proceedings have been cancelled or something..?? (indeed can you do that..?) ..should we really fill in the NIP ??
Cheers
Matt
They had already started proceedings against me but have apparently cancelled them and will not take me to court if I complete the NIP and send it to them within 7 days !!
Apparently they couldn't explain how they had managed to send out 2 letters on consecutive days saying that my 7 days were up.... it seems they can't even admit to their own incompetence.... no don't bother apologising for my stress due to your own inabilities !!
If I send them the form within 7 days that will alledgedly be it.... however judging by past performance I'll doubtless receive a summons within the next month or two anyway....
...
So should we get it in writing that tthe proceedings have been cancelled or something..?? (indeed can you do that..?) ..should we really fill in the NIP ??
Cheers
Matt
Don't talk to me aout humberside Police.
I believe they are affectionately known as 'Blunderside' police these days. AND they are absolutely speed van obsessed!.
A question to those that know about law by the way.......
If the police site 2 speed vans 2 miles apart on the same stretch of road, as Blunderside like to do, can they do you twice for speeding? Surely if you're speeding then that's 1 offence, and you can't be done twice for it. Though I'm sure they do!.
I believe they are affectionately known as 'Blunderside' police these days. AND they are absolutely speed van obsessed!.
A question to those that know about law by the way.......
If the police site 2 speed vans 2 miles apart on the same stretch of road, as Blunderside like to do, can they do you twice for speeding? Surely if you're speeding then that's 1 offence, and you can't be done twice for it. Though I'm sure they do!.
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