£2000 damages for a private car sale
Discussion
I'm making this post just looking for some more heavyweight confirmation of what I'd expect is true. This is for a guy on another forum who I'd expect would just be called a troll if he signed up with such a peeboiler first post.
So, the backstory...
It starts Jan 11th, private sale of an E36 M3 in Brighton starts to turn sour when the buyer emailed the seller saying the vanos "has gone", the SMG lever doesn't work (there has been a paddle shift conversion, and apparently one will be disabled to avoid opposite conflicting signals) and the left electric mirror doesn't move either.
First thoughts are that it is a private sale, and if worried, he should have checked it out BEFORE buying it.
Seller's insurance has been cancelled in preparation for another car, so it's not a cheap and easy solution to take back even if he wanted to go down that route.
So the new buyer goes to get a BMW mechanic to look it over (post sale)
The original sales description was as follows
The reply given was this-
Our Mr Chi is starting to brick it now, £200 to shut this guy up, or the risk of £2000?
He is still being told just ignore him, but it's a bit harder when it keeps landing in your mailbox.
Still, the onslaught continues
We are getting references to serious offences under a law based on dash lights not working, and the threats to pass on info to his work. The price has now lifted to £500.
Chi added to this - " half the lights were out on the right side of the cluster and I had never bothered to replace them. and if they are taken out obviously the air bad light wouldnt come on? so how did he know the the air bag light is on?
I told him the reason for the airbag light being on is I took the seats out of the car to do the scuffmaster which is in my journal"
Again, another email..
We have threats to call his work, repeated contact despite being told to stop, recording phonecalls unannounced, racing a car up to 140mph and still wanting a refund, and deciding to deal punative damages of £2000 for missing ashtrays and non working dash bulbs.
This is where it currently stands, but there has been a lot of false information, threats to contact work unless an amount of money has been received.
To me, this has crossed the line from being a chancer to harassment. The seller isn't enjoying this at all and it is putting a lot of pressure on him which he could do without.
Is there a magic bullet to stop this crap? And more to the point, does anyone want tickets to the court case?
So, the backstory...
It starts Jan 11th, private sale of an E36 M3 in Brighton starts to turn sour when the buyer emailed the seller saying the vanos "has gone", the SMG lever doesn't work (there has been a paddle shift conversion, and apparently one will be disabled to avoid opposite conflicting signals) and the left electric mirror doesn't move either.
First thoughts are that it is a private sale, and if worried, he should have checked it out BEFORE buying it.
Seller's insurance has been cancelled in preparation for another car, so it's not a cheap and easy solution to take back even if he wanted to go down that route.
So the new buyer goes to get a BMW mechanic to look it over (post sale)
The original sales description was as follows
Chi said:
"The Car is in very good condition for year and is completely mechanically sound. The Body is in very good condition for age as you can see from the detail The Leather is in good condition for year but in a perfect world I would have had it retrimmed."
So, the day of reckoning arrives, and after the inspection, he recieves this email-Julian said:
Dear Chi,
The car passed the MOT today. The rear tyres have 1.4/1.7mil of remaining legal tread (in addition to the final 1.6mil).
BMW advised of an engine oil leak which smokes onto the exhaust manifold and a few other advisory bits inc two bushings.
The airbag light still remains unresolved but SHOULD be resolveable.
When the transmission is changing gears, as you should have been aware, a smooth shifting (with no hesitation) is achievable if you remove your foot from the gas pedal when you hear it starting to shift. When you don't do this, the rev limiter cuts the revs down to try to prevent clutch wear.
On the whole, racing an M6 from 50-140 turned out to be a 645, need a new ash tray and lighter, rear tyres, aircon repair, dash back-lights are needed, shift-lock broken (can slip into neutral), hard-top leaks a bit, right electric mirror broken and SMG economy button inoperable.
Always better to disclose 100% and leave the car to speak for itself.
I have decided to let you decide what is fair under the circumstances. Based on that, I will take a calculated position on whether it is sensible to return the car or keep it and hope for the best. I am open to either option and can have my friend John put it on a flat bed and return safely to you.
You are a good guy Chi, and besides a few material omissions and swearing too much, you have not fallen into bad seller category.
I trust you will be fair to bring this to a mutually acceptable ending.
Best regards,
Jullian
Note that the vanos problem has melted away, but the guy still isn't happy for some reason.The car passed the MOT today. The rear tyres have 1.4/1.7mil of remaining legal tread (in addition to the final 1.6mil).
BMW advised of an engine oil leak which smokes onto the exhaust manifold and a few other advisory bits inc two bushings.
The airbag light still remains unresolved but SHOULD be resolveable.
When the transmission is changing gears, as you should have been aware, a smooth shifting (with no hesitation) is achievable if you remove your foot from the gas pedal when you hear it starting to shift. When you don't do this, the rev limiter cuts the revs down to try to prevent clutch wear.
On the whole, racing an M6 from 50-140 turned out to be a 645, need a new ash tray and lighter, rear tyres, aircon repair, dash back-lights are needed, shift-lock broken (can slip into neutral), hard-top leaks a bit, right electric mirror broken and SMG economy button inoperable.
Always better to disclose 100% and leave the car to speak for itself.
I have decided to let you decide what is fair under the circumstances. Based on that, I will take a calculated position on whether it is sensible to return the car or keep it and hope for the best. I am open to either option and can have my friend John put it on a flat bed and return safely to you.
You are a good guy Chi, and besides a few material omissions and swearing too much, you have not fallen into bad seller category.
I trust you will be fair to bring this to a mutually acceptable ending.
Best regards,
Jullian
The reply given was this-
Chi said:
Dear Julian
I have made some calls today. first I called my insurance company to ask if I did take the car back would it be possable to undo
the cancellation and a I cannot so the £xx that they have taken for cancelling is now gone (part of your insurance premium this
it with budget insurance. I have also bought a new car in lou of getting this money which I have signed
and agreed to pay. So im £xxx out of pocket. out of the xxxx you bought the car for.
I have spoken to a friend who is a soliciter and he has advised me that I should not be be taking the car back.
How do I know you didnt rag the car all the way home and break something? once the car left my possesion it was
up to you to take care of the car.
you had all the opportunity to get a mechanic to come to see the car before you took it. I am not
a mechanic julian I only know so much about car. you bought a friend with you who
"knows about these cars" you both had a good look at the car and you took and test drive and you handed over the money and left happy.
I in no way tried to hide anything from you and have answered countless emails to your about the car. when the
situation of the air con came up I agreed so knock £xxx off the xxx agreed price to compensate that. I have been more than
fair.
I have spoken to my local CAB regarding this matter and A private car sale is sold as seen if its on the
recipt or not. I suggest you make a call to them and discuss this with them.
I have today written to the dvla with a certified copy of your recipt as you kept both parts of the V5 to let them
know the car is no longer in my name.
This will be my last communication with you. all other correspondance will be ignored.
I would have thought that would be the end of the matter, but the guy is still carrying on.I have made some calls today. first I called my insurance company to ask if I did take the car back would it be possable to undo
the cancellation and a I cannot so the £xx that they have taken for cancelling is now gone (part of your insurance premium this
it with budget insurance. I have also bought a new car in lou of getting this money which I have signed
and agreed to pay. So im £xxx out of pocket. out of the xxxx you bought the car for.
I have spoken to a friend who is a soliciter and he has advised me that I should not be be taking the car back.
How do I know you didnt rag the car all the way home and break something? once the car left my possesion it was
up to you to take care of the car.
you had all the opportunity to get a mechanic to come to see the car before you took it. I am not
a mechanic julian I only know so much about car. you bought a friend with you who
"knows about these cars" you both had a good look at the car and you took and test drive and you handed over the money and left happy.
I in no way tried to hide anything from you and have answered countless emails to your about the car. when the
situation of the air con came up I agreed so knock £xxx off the xxx agreed price to compensate that. I have been more than
fair.
I have spoken to my local CAB regarding this matter and A private car sale is sold as seen if its on the
recipt or not. I suggest you make a call to them and discuss this with them.
I have today written to the dvla with a certified copy of your recipt as you kept both parts of the V5 to let them
know the car is no longer in my name.
This will be my last communication with you. all other correspondance will be ignored.
Jullian said:
hi,
1) You did not cancel your insurance, you transferred it to the new car.
2) The cost of your new car in incalculable into this equation.
3) I recorded our phone call yesterday and that is evidence of your agreement to refund my money.
4) I enjoy small claims court and relish the opportunity to see you again and hash this out in front of a judge.
5) You may choose to settle this matter by sending £200 to me and a full and final in the matter. If you don't, you'll likely have a CCJ against your credit at the Wales address as it is not the court's responsibility to track you down.
6) Ball in your court (I would prefer the court option as I will sue for the repair costs at BMW for all the items previously mentioned - roughly £2000.)
There is now £2000 of repairs, which seems to include consumables like tyres.1) You did not cancel your insurance, you transferred it to the new car.
2) The cost of your new car in incalculable into this equation.
3) I recorded our phone call yesterday and that is evidence of your agreement to refund my money.
4) I enjoy small claims court and relish the opportunity to see you again and hash this out in front of a judge.
5) You may choose to settle this matter by sending £200 to me and a full and final in the matter. If you don't, you'll likely have a CCJ against your credit at the Wales address as it is not the court's responsibility to track you down.
6) Ball in your court (I would prefer the court option as I will sue for the repair costs at BMW for all the items previously mentioned - roughly £2000.)
Our Mr Chi is starting to brick it now, £200 to shut this guy up, or the risk of £2000?
He is still being told just ignore him, but it's a bit harder when it keeps landing in your mailbox.
Still, the onslaught continues
Jullian said:
Dear Chi,
It seems that in your successful attempt to cover up the airbag light by removing two of the Osram 12 volt 1.2 volt bulbs so that I would not be aware I was driving without due protection, you have not only defrauded me, but have committed a serious criminal offence under UK law.
I will give you until 5:00pm tomorrow to pay for the repairs to this car in the estimated amount of £500.00 or I will be left no choice but to:
1) Male a complaint at my local Police station and ask them to take fingerprints and DNA from the cluster; and
2) I will file a small claims case against you and the paperwork notifying you of the case being lodged will be delivered to your home and at NatWest Bank - no later than Thursday of this week; and
3) Write to (my work).
All of which you will feel the repercussions of before the end of this week. Believe that or be foolish enough to take your chances...
Govern your forward actions accordingly.
Best regards,
Jullian
It seems that in your successful attempt to cover up the airbag light by removing two of the Osram 12 volt 1.2 volt bulbs so that I would not be aware I was driving without due protection, you have not only defrauded me, but have committed a serious criminal offence under UK law.
I will give you until 5:00pm tomorrow to pay for the repairs to this car in the estimated amount of £500.00 or I will be left no choice but to:
1) Male a complaint at my local Police station and ask them to take fingerprints and DNA from the cluster; and
2) I will file a small claims case against you and the paperwork notifying you of the case being lodged will be delivered to your home and at NatWest Bank - no later than Thursday of this week; and
3) Write to (my work).
All of which you will feel the repercussions of before the end of this week. Believe that or be foolish enough to take your chances...
Govern your forward actions accordingly.
Best regards,
Jullian
We are getting references to serious offences under a law based on dash lights not working, and the threats to pass on info to his work. The price has now lifted to £500.
Chi added to this - " half the lights were out on the right side of the cluster and I had never bothered to replace them. and if they are taken out obviously the air bad light wouldnt come on? so how did he know the the air bag light is on?
I told him the reason for the airbag light being on is I took the seats out of the car to do the scuffmaster which is in my journal"
Again, another email..
Jullian said:
Dear Chi,
As you are a young man and may be green to the ramifications of court action, I am attaching the court case that I will file on-line.
Thus, you have now a final opportunity to settle this matter before Wednesday @ 17:00 when I will then push the button.
I felt it only fair to do so.
Best regards.
Also an attatchment from some Brighton soliciter
Claiming 500 for fix
2000 punitive damages.
Now I haven't seen the attachment but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.As you are a young man and may be green to the ramifications of court action, I am attaching the court case that I will file on-line.
Thus, you have now a final opportunity to settle this matter before Wednesday @ 17:00 when I will then push the button.
I felt it only fair to do so.
Best regards.
Also an attatchment from some Brighton soliciter
Claiming 500 for fix
2000 punitive damages.
We have threats to call his work, repeated contact despite being told to stop, recording phonecalls unannounced, racing a car up to 140mph and still wanting a refund, and deciding to deal punative damages of £2000 for missing ashtrays and non working dash bulbs.
This is where it currently stands, but there has been a lot of false information, threats to contact work unless an amount of money has been received.
To me, this has crossed the line from being a chancer to harassment. The seller isn't enjoying this at all and it is putting a lot of pressure on him which he could do without.
Is there a magic bullet to stop this crap? And more to the point, does anyone want tickets to the court case?
Edited by TheEnd on Tuesday 18th January 15:13
Another Olive branch has arrived in the last few minutes too
Jules said:
Chi,
FYI: My solicitor has called back and advised that we will change the claim to reflect the removal of the bulbs and we reserve the right to introduce any evidence from the Police of you accessing the rear of the cluster and illegally tampering with a warning light (for an in-car safety system) - contrary to law.
Solicitor's Advice? HmmmmFYI: My solicitor has called back and advised that we will change the claim to reflect the removal of the bulbs and we reserve the right to introduce any evidence from the Police of you accessing the rear of the cluster and illegally tampering with a warning light (for an in-car safety system) - contrary to law.
k off. Sounds like a chancer to me.
Not sure what the Wales address is, or whether this is where the car was sold from. If the guy does complete an online application your friend will have ample opportunity to defend. If it goes to court he also has the option to request a transfer to his local court.
Simple advice would be retain all paperwork, retain copies of anything he sends and be accurate.
Yea, the best bet would have just been to ignore it from the outset, but he's made that mistake already and gave him a foothold.
I get mixed feelings from solicitors, they will send out stupid letters that they must know are just scare tactics and unworkable.
In this case, I'm not even sure if he has had any contact with a solicitor, as surely any one would have said to just give up.
I get mixed feelings from solicitors, they will send out stupid letters that they must know are just scare tactics and unworkable.
In this case, I'm not even sure if he has had any contact with a solicitor, as surely any one would have said to just give up.
I am the seller of the car. this has been a total nightmare.
I will write what it says on his claim form.
"the defendant sold me a 1999 bmw m3 on january 10th at circa 7pm for 5500 approx twice the book value. I test drove the car in the rain and darkness and notice that the right half of the instrument panel was dark. whe i questioned the defendant claimed not to know why that or how to remove the insrument cluster. to change the bulbs. on my drive home that evening i notice a faint air bad light on the darkened section which indicated the air bad systmem was inoreable. when question as to why this was not disclosed to me. the defendant stated that it was an easy fix and that he knew somone who could do "it for free" when I stated i would prefer a bmw mechanic look at it mr sharpe offer me a full refund if i return the car. when i took him up on the offer he refused and has ignored all sunsequesnt communications
value.
500 in estimated repair to abs system and undisclosed issues
2000 in punative damamges
2500 total.
this guy is fabricating things from thin air about the car.
I have spoken to the policy tonight who told me to reply that he took the car for a test drive and bought the car as seen and I have taken advice from hampshire police and any further correspondance will be classed as harrasment
I will write what it says on his claim form.
"the defendant sold me a 1999 bmw m3 on january 10th at circa 7pm for 5500 approx twice the book value. I test drove the car in the rain and darkness and notice that the right half of the instrument panel was dark. whe i questioned the defendant claimed not to know why that or how to remove the insrument cluster. to change the bulbs. on my drive home that evening i notice a faint air bad light on the darkened section which indicated the air bad systmem was inoreable. when question as to why this was not disclosed to me. the defendant stated that it was an easy fix and that he knew somone who could do "it for free" when I stated i would prefer a bmw mechanic look at it mr sharpe offer me a full refund if i return the car. when i took him up on the offer he refused and has ignored all sunsequesnt communications
value.
500 in estimated repair to abs system and undisclosed issues
2000 in punative damamges
2500 total.
this guy is fabricating things from thin air about the car.
I have spoken to the policy tonight who told me to reply that he took the car for a test drive and bought the car as seen and I have taken advice from hampshire police and any further correspondance will be classed as harrasment
I just read the rest of it. THe guy actually seems to be suffering from some sort of mental deficiency. He's a nutter. This Chi bloke should keep all correspondence, reply to none of it and if it continues too long or gets more threatening, go to the police.
Edited by carmonk on Monday 17th January 18:23
Mk2golfvalver said:
I am the seller of the car. this has been a total nightmare.
I will write what it says on his claim form.
"the defendant sold me a 1999 bmw m3 on january 10th at circa 7pm for 5500 approx twice the book value. I test drove the car in the rain and darkness and notice that the right half of the instrument panel was dark. whe i questioned the defendant claimed not to know why that or how to remove the insrument cluster. to change the bulbs. on my drive home that evening i notice a faint air bad light on the darkened section which indicated the air bad systmem was inoreable. when question as to why this was not disclosed to me. the defendant stated that it was an easy fix and that he knew somone who could do "it for free" when I stated i would prefer a bmw mechanic look at it mr sharpe offer me a full refund if i return the car. when i took him up on the offer he refused and has ignored all sunsequesnt communications
value.
500 in estimated repair to abs system and undisclosed issues
2000 in punative damamges
2500 total.
this guy is fabricating things from thin air about the car.
I have spoken to the policy tonight who told me to reply that he took the car for a test drive and bought the car as seen and I have taken advice from hampshire police and any further correspondance will be classed as harrasment
I was a PRIVATE SALE.I will write what it says on his claim form.
"the defendant sold me a 1999 bmw m3 on january 10th at circa 7pm for 5500 approx twice the book value. I test drove the car in the rain and darkness and notice that the right half of the instrument panel was dark. whe i questioned the defendant claimed not to know why that or how to remove the insrument cluster. to change the bulbs. on my drive home that evening i notice a faint air bad light on the darkened section which indicated the air bad systmem was inoreable. when question as to why this was not disclosed to me. the defendant stated that it was an easy fix and that he knew somone who could do "it for free" when I stated i would prefer a bmw mechanic look at it mr sharpe offer me a full refund if i return the car. when i took him up on the offer he refused and has ignored all sunsequesnt communications
value.
500 in estimated repair to abs system and undisclosed issues
2000 in punative damamges
2500 total.
this guy is fabricating things from thin air about the car.
I have spoken to the policy tonight who told me to reply that he took the car for a test drive and bought the car as seen and I have taken advice from hampshire police and any further correspondance will be classed as harrasment
He has NO COMEBACK.
Tell him to DO ONE.
Julian's only leg to stand on would be to argue in court that Chi "misrepresented" his vehicle which I don't think is the case looking at the advert.
My advice to Chi is to present the facts clearly if this goes to a small claims court and my advice to Julian is to inspect cars more thoroughly when buying from a private seller.
My advice to Chi is to present the facts clearly if this goes to a small claims court and my advice to Julian is to inspect cars more thoroughly when buying from a private seller.
Soovy said:
Mk2golfvalver said:
I am the seller of the car. this has been a total nightmare.
I will write what it says on his claim form.
"the defendant sold me a 1999 bmw m3 on january 10th at circa 7pm for 5500 approx twice the book value. I test drove the car in the rain and darkness and notice that the right half of the instrument panel was dark. whe i questioned the defendant claimed not to know why that or how to remove the insrument cluster. to change the bulbs. on my drive home that evening i notice a faint air bad light on the darkened section which indicated the air bad systmem was inoreable. when question as to why this was not disclosed to me. the defendant stated that it was an easy fix and that he knew somone who could do "it for free" when I stated i would prefer a bmw mechanic look at it mr sharpe offer me a full refund if i return the car. when i took him up on the offer he refused and has ignored all sunsequesnt communications
value.
500 in estimated repair to abs system and undisclosed issues
2000 in punative damamges
2500 total.
this guy is fabricating things from thin air about the car.
I have spoken to the policy tonight who told me to reply that he took the car for a test drive and bought the car as seen and I have taken advice from hampshire police and any further correspondance will be classed as harrasment
I was a PRIVATE SALE.I will write what it says on his claim form.
"the defendant sold me a 1999 bmw m3 on january 10th at circa 7pm for 5500 approx twice the book value. I test drove the car in the rain and darkness and notice that the right half of the instrument panel was dark. whe i questioned the defendant claimed not to know why that or how to remove the insrument cluster. to change the bulbs. on my drive home that evening i notice a faint air bad light on the darkened section which indicated the air bad systmem was inoreable. when question as to why this was not disclosed to me. the defendant stated that it was an easy fix and that he knew somone who could do "it for free" when I stated i would prefer a bmw mechanic look at it mr sharpe offer me a full refund if i return the car. when i took him up on the offer he refused and has ignored all sunsequesnt communications
value.
500 in estimated repair to abs system and undisclosed issues
2000 in punative damamges
2500 total.
this guy is fabricating things from thin air about the car.
I have spoken to the policy tonight who told me to reply that he took the car for a test drive and bought the car as seen and I have taken advice from hampshire police and any further correspondance will be classed as harrasment
He has NO COMEBACK.
Tell him to DO ONE.
Has he *really* filed that claim, like that...?
Soovy said:
hornetrider said:
Hey noobie, welcome to PH, quality lurking. Soovy is the resident slimeball lawyer, heed his words.
Seriously, tell him to go and do one.
A judge will LAUGH in his FACE
Except I find it highly highly unlikely that he will file that claim, let alone get it to a hearing.
JustinP1 said:
Soovy said:
hornetrider said:
Hey noobie, welcome to PH, quality lurking. Soovy is the resident slimeball lawyer, heed his words.
Seriously, tell him to go and do one.
A judge will LAUGH in his FACE
Except I find it highly highly unlikely that he will file that claim, let alone get it to a hearing.
Enjoy the fact that if he does pursue this, he will not only lose but he'll be totally humiliated.
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