HGVs on M-ways
Discussion
Seeing as it is Friday and today 'I shall be mostly driving home' I seek an answer to the question I ask myself every week:
What is the law on lorries in the outside lane of a three-lane M-Way?
What is the definition of HGV - I guess there is some weight limit that defines this for the purposes of this rule? Are 3.5 tonners OK? 7.5? Anything other than an artic?
Last week I got sick of seeing the things in front of me holding huge lines of traffic up. Admittedly there do seem to be a few hire lorries, so either driven by those that don't know, or driven by courier companies on hire by those that don't care, perhaps. Also had a car and trailer in front in the outer lane last week - another one that should know better - seemed like everyone was at it last week.
What is the law on lorries in the outside lane of a three-lane M-Way?
What is the definition of HGV - I guess there is some weight limit that defines this for the purposes of this rule? Are 3.5 tonners OK? 7.5? Anything other than an artic?
Last week I got sick of seeing the things in front of me holding huge lines of traffic up. Admittedly there do seem to be a few hire lorries, so either driven by those that don't know, or driven by courier companies on hire by those that don't care, perhaps. Also had a car and trailer in front in the outer lane last week - another one that should know better - seemed like everyone was at it last week.
To answer several questions above in the one post.
Re: use of lane 3 by HGV etc
The right-hand lane of a motorway with three or more lanes MUST NOT be used if you are driving
> any vehicle drawing a trailer
> a goods vehicle with a maximum laden weight over 7.5 tonnes
> a passenger vehicle with a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver.
reg 12 Motorways Traffic (England & Wales) Regulations 1982
reg 11a Motorways Traffic (Scotland) Regulations 1995 MT(S)R
There are certain prescribed circumstances where exceptions apply.
Re confining HGV to lane 1.
also please note
an extract from Hansard Parliamentary Transport Committee 6 Nov 2002
A3.1. The M62 Route Management Strategy work which was completed earlier this year looked at the implementation of HGV lanes as one option for dealing with traffic congestion on this trans-Pennine route. The study had serious reservations about the benefits and operational safety of dedicated HGV lanes. This is broadly speaking because confining HGVs to one or two lanes on three or four lane motorways respectively, significantly increases delays to this category of traffic but does not reduce delays for general traffic. The study also concluded that there would be significant difficulties in managing traffic streams in the entry and exit areas.
>>>>>>>>
As for sticking freight on the railways, the amount of investment needed to have any significant impact on the road network would be hu-(expletive deleted)-mongous. Problems with not enough track capacity, not enough height in the air gauge to name just two.
We are suffering from a century of underinvestment in railways under Govts of every complexion. Railways have as much chance as canals did when the railways came in.
FiF
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Friday 30th April 11:12
Re: use of lane 3 by HGV etc
The right-hand lane of a motorway with three or more lanes MUST NOT be used if you are driving
> any vehicle drawing a trailer
> a goods vehicle with a maximum laden weight over 7.5 tonnes
> a passenger vehicle with a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver.
reg 12 Motorways Traffic (England & Wales) Regulations 1982
reg 11a Motorways Traffic (Scotland) Regulations 1995 MT(S)R
There are certain prescribed circumstances where exceptions apply.
Re confining HGV to lane 1.
also please note
an extract from Hansard Parliamentary Transport Committee 6 Nov 2002
A3.1. The M62 Route Management Strategy work which was completed earlier this year looked at the implementation of HGV lanes as one option for dealing with traffic congestion on this trans-Pennine route. The study had serious reservations about the benefits and operational safety of dedicated HGV lanes. This is broadly speaking because confining HGVs to one or two lanes on three or four lane motorways respectively, significantly increases delays to this category of traffic but does not reduce delays for general traffic. The study also concluded that there would be significant difficulties in managing traffic streams in the entry and exit areas.
>>>>>>>>
As for sticking freight on the railways, the amount of investment needed to have any significant impact on the road network would be hu-(expletive deleted)-mongous. Problems with not enough track capacity, not enough height in the air gauge to name just two.
We are suffering from a century of underinvestment in railways under Govts of every complexion. Railways have as much chance as canals did when the railways came in.
FiF
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Friday 30th April 11:12
a 
- feel free to cut me up. We truck drivers were absolutely over the moon when they gave us speed limiters. Sorry guys, we do try to keep out of the way honest.....
The reason we have to sit right on each others back doors, is because the difference in speed between two trucks is so slight, and the gaps we have to duck out into the second lane so small (especially when it's busy). This was one of those stupid laws brought in by some deskbound F
wit who thought it would make things safer. As far as I'm aware the level of accidents involving HGV's on motorways has increased. Does anybody here think that will make them change their mind??????......yeah right, fat chance !!!
As for sticking freight on the road, couldn't agree more, but it still has to be delivered from the railhead to tesco's etc etc and that needs trucks.
I really am sorry guys.......if I didn't have the limiter, it would be out round, and back in quick. One option may be to do as the continentals do, and restrict trucks to the first lane during peak hours
.......I think this would be about when I give the game up, it's a stty thankless job without that.
Philthy
The reason we have to sit right on each others back doors, is because the difference in speed between two trucks is so slight, and the gaps we have to duck out into the second lane so small (especially when it's busy). This was one of those stupid laws brought in by some deskbound F
wit who thought it would make things safer. As far as I'm aware the level of accidents involving HGV's on motorways has increased. Does anybody here think that will make them change their mind??????......yeah right, fat chance !!! As for sticking freight on the road, couldn't agree more, but it still has to be delivered from the railhead to tesco's etc etc and that needs trucks.
I really am sorry guys.......if I didn't have the limiter, it would be out round, and back in quick. One option may be to do as the continentals do, and restrict trucks to the first lane during peak hours
.......I think this would be about when I give the game up, it's a stty thankless job without that. Philthy
JMGS4 said:
IMHO all goods vehicles over 3 tonnes prohibited in 3rd lane, wish it was also for vans and cars with trailers/caravans......
Certainly here on the continent all trailers and goods vehicles over 3 tonnes prohibited in 3rd lane......
I though only car derived vans were allowed in the 3rd lane ?
I have given the issue of freight on the roads a lot of thought since seeing a train being delivered on the back of a lorry!!! Oh the irony.
We need a system of standardised cartons that are easy to load. The entire carton can be fitted on a train or a truck. Each carton can take smaller cartons that have goods for a given local destination.
Each town has an out of town distribution centre, much like a sorting office where goods are shipped by smaller local lorries to their final destination.
The country has backbone rail links that run regularly throughout the day and night.
It's not rocket science and could be done with the right engineering skills and logistics. It would take investment and planning, but the benefits would be huge.
Obviously there would need to be exceptions, but they should be exactly that.
Anyone got any better ideas that don't involve clogging up the roads with freight?
We need a system of standardised cartons that are easy to load. The entire carton can be fitted on a train or a truck. Each carton can take smaller cartons that have goods for a given local destination.
Each town has an out of town distribution centre, much like a sorting office where goods are shipped by smaller local lorries to their final destination.
The country has backbone rail links that run regularly throughout the day and night.
It's not rocket science and could be done with the right engineering skills and logistics. It would take investment and planning, but the benefits would be huge.
Obviously there would need to be exceptions, but they should be exactly that.
Anyone got any better ideas that don't involve clogging up the roads with freight?
TonyOut said:
I have given the issue of freight on the roads a lot of thought since seeing a train being delivered on the back of a lorry!!! Oh the irony.
That was probably due to HSE stupidity. In BR days it would have been taken on the rails unless there were wheels missing or something equally major. Nowadays if the driver does a bad fart in the cab some twattish safety regulation will insist on the train being taken to Crewe for disinfection on the back of a truck.
TonyOut said:
We need a system of standardised cartons that are easy to load. The entire carton can be fitted on a train or a truck.
Unfortunately the loading gauge (space under bridges etc) on British railways is rather small, so the maximum height of a train load is quite a bit lower than for a lorry trailer. This is the main problem afflicting the various road-railer projects - variations on the theme of lorry trailer with road and rail wheels. The stupid government isn't helping by not supporting the Grand Central freight railway project (not that the Tories would be any better).
Pigeon said:
I have given the issue of freight on the roads a lot of thought since seeing a train being delivered on the back of a lorry!!! Oh the irony.
I think it's to do with Railtrack charging huge amounts of money, so it's cheaper for a train to go by road.
I have seen many trains going up the motorways.
I didn't say it would be easy 
A standard container still works... it just needs to be easy to multiply them onto the chosen load bed.
It would be a lot of work, but any solution to the current congestion will need a radically different approach to the standard "I know, let's tax the motorist" sit we have at the moment.
Lorries wear the roads out. A one off big hit at sorting bridges etc could move us forward and reduce the roadwork burden we have at the moment.
It will never happen, it's too fcking sensible! :-)
A standard container still works... it just needs to be easy to multiply them onto the chosen load bed.
It would be a lot of work, but any solution to the current congestion will need a radically different approach to the standard "I know, let's tax the motorist" s
it we have at the moment. Lorries wear the roads out. A one off big hit at sorting bridges etc could move us forward and reduce the roadwork burden we have at the moment.
It will never happen, it's too f
cking sensible! :-)I think you would be surprised how much freight actually travels my rail.
There is a HUGE railfreight depot in Crick. Its used by Tesco amongst others.
Safeway (sorry Morrisons) send all the supermarket goods by container from Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness. The freight is basically containers done up in Safeway colours, which are thrown onto container flats at the other end, taken to the shop, emptied, then taken back to the train for the journey back home.
The problem is, there aren't enough Depots in 'Sensible' locations. Most are regional depots. Try asking one of these companies to define a region. Some say Strathclyde, others say Scotland. It isn't as simple as merely throwing the freight on a train and sending it on its way. Is it quicker to go by road? How far away is the freight at the other end from the destination? How far is the nearest depot to the source.
Thats all very well and good for Long Distance stuff, but what about the short distance? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Whats the quickest and most economical way to transport stone from a quarry to a building site 10 miles away. And how to you get in INTO the site, the builders aren't going to very impressed if they have to walk 5 miles with a wheelbarrow to a 200tonne pile of stone which they needed in the site.
Trucks are inconvenient? Yes.
Is the a viable Alternative? No.
Oh, and one question to those who say ban trucks. What happened during the fuel strikes in 2000, when all the truck drivers who should have been shifting cargo around the country were standing on picket lines? The country came to a standstill. But they still had the decency to supply fuel to Hospitals and Nurses etc.
If its soooo easy to put freight on the railway, why wasn't it done then?
There is a HUGE railfreight depot in Crick. Its used by Tesco amongst others.
Safeway (sorry Morrisons) send all the supermarket goods by container from Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness. The freight is basically containers done up in Safeway colours, which are thrown onto container flats at the other end, taken to the shop, emptied, then taken back to the train for the journey back home.
The problem is, there aren't enough Depots in 'Sensible' locations. Most are regional depots. Try asking one of these companies to define a region. Some say Strathclyde, others say Scotland. It isn't as simple as merely throwing the freight on a train and sending it on its way. Is it quicker to go by road? How far away is the freight at the other end from the destination? How far is the nearest depot to the source.
Thats all very well and good for Long Distance stuff, but what about the short distance? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Whats the quickest and most economical way to transport stone from a quarry to a building site 10 miles away. And how to you get in INTO the site, the builders aren't going to very impressed if they have to walk 5 miles with a wheelbarrow to a 200tonne pile of stone which they needed in the site.
Trucks are inconvenient? Yes.
Is the a viable Alternative? No.
Oh, and one question to those who say ban trucks. What happened during the fuel strikes in 2000, when all the truck drivers who should have been shifting cargo around the country were standing on picket lines? The country came to a standstill. But they still had the decency to supply fuel to Hospitals and Nurses etc.
If its soooo easy to put freight on the railway, why wasn't it done then?
trucks I have seen and been in accidents with hgv's, one pulled out from a roundabout under the m62 i went into the side of it I saw the driver look towards me thought that I will stop for him, but my brakes locked up, another pulled out from a cross roads same story, but he was on the mobile phone police did him for driving without due care went to court and another pulled into my lane on the A1 thinking that I would brake.No you can't claim from a crash barrier each time few grand compo. so my view is the same as what they have done in Dubai.see link [url]www.gulfnews.com/Articles/specialreports2.asp?ArticleID=118946[/url] cant kill or hurt anybody but themselves
andyred said:
so my view is the same as what they have done in Dubai.
Ah, the Sheik Zayed Road (Abu Dhabi - Dubai main link) - eight lanes of madness, overtake wherever, no speed restrictions anywhere (ok, an unenforced 120kmh max), HGVs so overladen the tyres are just about flat, Arabs in 4x4s driving whilst reading the paper, on the mobile and with their 6yr old son taking the wheel and more passengers than seats - I remember it well. Suicide or murder as soon as it rains as they have no idea how to drive in it.
As far as HGVs go, they banned them from the city limits during peak times to ease congestion.
philthy said:
We truck drivers were absolutely over the moon when they gave us speed limiters. Sorry guys, we do try to keep out of the way honest.....
The reason we have to sit right on each others back doors, is because the difference in speed between two trucks is so slight, and the gaps we have to duck out into the second lane so small (especially when it's busy). This was one of those stupid laws brought in by some deskbound F
8< snip 8<
I really am sorry guys.......if I didn't have the limiter, it would be out round, and back in quick.
8< snip 8<
Philthy
Just wait until the EU legislation kicks in that anything with GVW > 3.5 t has to have a limiter.
Its not long now!
EU directive 2002/85/EC will make limiters compulsory on all vehicles > 3.5t gvw or more than 8 passenger seats, cutting legal maximum to 56mph.
In force for any vehicle first used after Jan 1 2005
Retrofitting to all vehicles by Jan 1 2008.
This is the link to the dft consultation paper
http://tinyurl.com/2frnz
HMG fought a rearguard action for quite some time but gave up a while ago.
I don't think there is any legislation in hand to prevent a speed limited Mercedes Sprinter (>3.5t gvw but <7.5t gvw) occupying right hand lane of M-way at a limited 56 mph.
Edited to say I really hope I'm wrong in the statement comprising last para. Anyone know for sure?
FiF
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Saturday 1st May 08:48
If they are all limited to 56 then the sensible answer is for them all to be in the same lane. Lane one with no exception. Why would they want to venture out, they are all doing the same speed. Leave the overtaking lanes for those of us who can actually overtake.
And as for my rail comments, this is a viable alternative, you just have to plan the logistics correctly and build regional depots. It shouldn't be a commercial thing, it should be run centrally as part of a strategic transport policy.
And as for my rail comments, this is a viable alternative, you just have to plan the logistics correctly and build regional depots. It shouldn't be a commercial thing, it should be run centrally as part of a strategic transport policy.
.. and so, as everyone else is limited to 70mph, we obviously only need two lanes on motorways. One for HGV, one for everyone else.
To make things real safe and easy, we could use one side of the motorway for 2 lines of HGV's (just whack a concrete barrier down the middle lane), the other side for the rest. Might cost a bit in redesigning the junctions though!
Maybe a more sensible suggestion would be to limit all traffic to 56mph and make overtaking illegal. Close two lanes and build houses on them for immigrants.
I think I need more beer
To make things real safe and easy, we could use one side of the motorway for 2 lines of HGV's (just whack a concrete barrier down the middle lane), the other side for the rest. Might cost a bit in redesigning the junctions though!
Maybe a more sensible suggestion would be to limit all traffic to 56mph and make overtaking illegal. Close two lanes and build houses on them for immigrants.
I think I need more beer
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