Discussion
Hi,
I've been photo'd with the back end of my car in a box junction. The lights were green and I entered seeing the cars at the head of the queue moving away thus having reasonable reason to believe I wouldn't be stranded. The cars moved and all was good however I did 'pause' as mentioned with the rear metre or so in the box.
£60.00 fine.
Now, I did stop in the box. Fact. Not completely and not for more than a few seconds. I wasn't causing an obstruction and the lights were always in my favour but at a point in time I wasn't moving.
I am always so careful to not stop/cause an obstruction hence not entering until I could see traffic moving ahead.
I don't have a Highway Code to hand but is there anything that sets out what the parameters are? I just want to know if it's worth contesting. I am annoyed, both at myself and the camera operator who is being a bit of a petty money grabber. But more at myself.
Thanks
I've been photo'd with the back end of my car in a box junction. The lights were green and I entered seeing the cars at the head of the queue moving away thus having reasonable reason to believe I wouldn't be stranded. The cars moved and all was good however I did 'pause' as mentioned with the rear metre or so in the box.
£60.00 fine.
Now, I did stop in the box. Fact. Not completely and not for more than a few seconds. I wasn't causing an obstruction and the lights were always in my favour but at a point in time I wasn't moving.
I am always so careful to not stop/cause an obstruction hence not entering until I could see traffic moving ahead.
I don't have a Highway Code to hand but is there anything that sets out what the parameters are? I just want to know if it's worth contesting. I am annoyed, both at myself and the camera operator who is being a bit of a petty money grabber. But more at myself.
Thanks
HC174 said:
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see 'Road markings'). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.
[Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)]
[Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)]
The rules, in their simplest form are:
You may only enter a box junction if your exit is clear.
You can stop in a box junction, if for example you're tunring right across traffic, again so long as the exit to the right is clear.
Although you saw traffic moving, that was not an indication that you would be able to clear the box junction once traffic had stopped moving.
In essence, you entered the box junction when your exit was not clear - and so the offence has been comitted.
I don't really think you're going to find a valid defence on this one.
You may only enter a box junction if your exit is clear.
You can stop in a box junction, if for example you're tunring right across traffic, again so long as the exit to the right is clear.
Although you saw traffic moving, that was not an indication that you would be able to clear the box junction once traffic had stopped moving.
In essence, you entered the box junction when your exit was not clear - and so the offence has been comitted.
I don't really think you're going to find a valid defence on this one.
See, there's no bloody justice in this country. I was behind a bloke the other day who went right around a traffic island (back in the direction he had come from) without any indication whatsoever. He then hit the brakes for a Gatso that was facing him in a 30 zone (he was only doing about 28mph when he saw it), then sat full-on in the middle of a box junction before turning off, again with no indication. 
Then someone like you gets fined for something as petty as this.
Then someone like you gets fined for something as petty as this.
Baz Tench said:
See, there's no bloody justice in this country. I was behind a bloke the other day who went right around a traffic island (back in the direction he had come from) without any indication whatsoever. He then hit the brakes for a Gatso that was facing him in a 30 zone (he was only doing about 28mph when he saw it), then sat full-on in the middle of a box junction before turning off, again with no indication.
Then someone like you gets fined for something as petty as this.
That's life I guess. Then someone like you gets fined for something as petty as this.
Baz Tench said:
See, there's no bloody justice in this country. I was behind a bloke the other day who went right around a traffic island (back in the direction he had come from) without any indication whatsoever. He then hit the brakes for a Gatso that was facing him in a 30 zone (he was only doing about 28mph when he saw it), then sat full-on in the middle of a box junction before turning off, again with no indication.
Then someone like you gets fined for something as petty as this.
Welcome to the world, your not going to like it.....Then someone like you gets fined for something as petty as this.
OP - sorry to hear about your ticket, sounds like a s
tter!sorry to hear about the ticket OP, sorry i can't help.
i do now think myself lucky though, as last week coming home i go through a box junction, 2 lanes of traffic in both directions.
so i sat waiting to cross the junction, traffic moves forward, so enough space for me so i pull forward, not clocking that the fiesta beside me has moved (his lane of traffic hasn't) and as i am in a diesel land rover and he is in a fiesta, he nips in front of me into my lane. now i have nowhere to go and i am sitting in the middle of the box junction, blocking it. at least no-one tried to turn right into the side road so i never blocked them. still i felt a prune and was just a tad peeved with the fiesta driver.
auto cameras will never pick that up though, they would just ticket me.
by the way i know some of you are my way, it was on the bit of road between sadlers farm and tarpots, heading to tarpots.
i do now think myself lucky though, as last week coming home i go through a box junction, 2 lanes of traffic in both directions.
so i sat waiting to cross the junction, traffic moves forward, so enough space for me so i pull forward, not clocking that the fiesta beside me has moved (his lane of traffic hasn't) and as i am in a diesel land rover and he is in a fiesta, he nips in front of me into my lane. now i have nowhere to go and i am sitting in the middle of the box junction, blocking it. at least no-one tried to turn right into the side road so i never blocked them. still i felt a prune and was just a tad peeved with the fiesta driver.
auto cameras will never pick that up though, they would just ticket me.
by the way i know some of you are my way, it was on the bit of road between sadlers farm and tarpots, heading to tarpots.
So you were passing through a box junction and for some reason, probably dirty fuel from the last filling station that you filled up at, your car stalled and of course you had to take all of 5-10 seconds to restart as it coughed a couple of times before the engine fired up again yes/no???
SLCZ3 said:
So you were passing through a box junction and for some reason, probably dirty fuel from the last filling station that you filled up at, your car stalled and of course you had to take all of 5-10 seconds to restart as it coughed a couple of times before the engine fired up again yes/no???
That might be worth a try if the offence was stopping in a YBJ, unfortunately it is entering a YBJ when your exit isn't clear. Cat
Cat said:
That might be worth a try if the offence was stopping in a YBJ, unfortunately it is entering a YBJ when your exit isn't clear.
Cat
Does the defence only work if you thought it was clear, began entering the junction and someone nipped in and filled the space leaving you straddledCat
Looking again at the photo it is a good half of my car. The annoying thing is there aren't two phtos showing time-lapse so they could have just taken a snapshot.
In the photo there are at least three cars. Two of which are completely in the middle of the junction. Easy £180.00 for them.
I wonder if it's worth asking to see if they will supply the time-lapse?
In the photo there are at least three cars. Two of which are completely in the middle of the junction. Easy £180.00 for them.
I wonder if it's worth asking to see if they will supply the time-lapse?
How clear does your exit have to be - one inch, one foot or the whole length of the car.
In other words - if you get your front bumper out of the yellow box is that enough?
I know common sense says that it isn't but what does the statute actually say and what has case law decided on this.
The other issue is - did you actually stop?
The highway code says don't enter until your exit is clear but the red-light cameras don't have "exit clear" detectors they have "car stationary" detectors that take two pictures a small period apart - so if you crawl along without actually coming to a halt would you actually get a fine?
In other words - if you get your front bumper out of the yellow box is that enough?
I know common sense says that it isn't but what does the statute actually say and what has case law decided on this.
The other issue is - did you actually stop?
The highway code says don't enter until your exit is clear but the red-light cameras don't have "exit clear" detectors they have "car stationary" detectors that take two pictures a small period apart - so if you crawl along without actually coming to a halt would you actually get a fine?
E Ponym said:
How clear does your exit have to be - one inch, one foot or the whole length of the car.
In other words - if you get your front bumper out of the yellow box is that enough?
I know common sense says that it isn't but what does the statute actually say and what has case law decided on this.
The other issue is - did you actually stop?
The highway code says don't enter until your exit is clear but the red-light cameras don't have "exit clear" detectors they have "car stationary" detectors that take two pictures a small period apart - so if you crawl along without actually coming to a halt would you actually get a fine?
why crawl if your exit is clear?In other words - if you get your front bumper out of the yellow box is that enough?
I know common sense says that it isn't but what does the statute actually say and what has case law decided on this.
The other issue is - did you actually stop?
The highway code says don't enter until your exit is clear but the red-light cameras don't have "exit clear" detectors they have "car stationary" detectors that take two pictures a small period apart - so if you crawl along without actually coming to a halt would you actually get a fine?
The legislation must state, I assume, that London bus drivers can ignore box junctions and park in them.
Whilst I YBJs are generally a good idea, it would be more sensible if the offence were blocking other traffic from crossing a YB. There is no harm done by having the front of your car out of the box and the rear in it if your lights are green, and stay green long enough for you to clear the box completely.
Whilst I YBJs are generally a good idea, it would be more sensible if the offence were blocking other traffic from crossing a YB. There is no harm done by having the front of your car out of the box and the rear in it if your lights are green, and stay green long enough for you to clear the box completely.
E Ponym said:
How clear does your exit have to be - one inch, one foot or the whole length of the car.
Quoting again from HC174:"... you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic ..."
However (and it is a big 'however'), HC174 goes on to say: "... , or by other vehicles waiting to turn right."
Referring to the law, s.6(b) of Part II of Schedule 19 of the The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (the "TRSG" referred to in HC), states:
"(b) a reference (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is within the box junction."
And s.7(2) states:
"The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) ["no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles"] does not apply to any person—
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn."
I had long understood (and indeed was taught) the last phrase in s.7(2)(b) to mean opposing vehicles waiting to turn right, not vehicles travelling in the same direction as yourself, but that is not clear from the wording.
My thesis is therefore, that:
1) Being a vehicle in a YBJ prevented from proceeding by vehicles ahead that are travelling in the same direction and that are attempting to continue straight ahead or turn left is clearly illegal.
2) Being the only vehicle in a YBJ wishing to turn right and being prevented from doing so by oncoming traffic is clearly lawful.
3) Entering a YBJ and joining a queue of vehicles ahead that are travelling in the same direction and waiting to turn right is also lawful.
Comments from BiB would be appreciated.
Streaky
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff