Rail Ticketing Issue
Discussion
streaky said:
rs1952 said:
The most important point here is to get advice from the company's employees, ...
In writing, signed and dated, after ensuring the advisor has the necessary authority. Otherwise, the advice might be later countradicted by another employee, resulting in a penalty fare or worse.Streaky
I happened to be on a train today between Weston Super Mare and Bristol when an inspector came around. He was one of the keen ones - wanted to see my Senior Railcard as well as the ticket. I like to kid myself that these nice men don't think I look old enough to qualify for one...
Anyway, in the row behind me the RPO took issue with a lad (who looked at least 20 to me) travelling on a child's ticket (now where have I heard a similar story lately?). He asked for his parent's phone number, which the lad gave him, and his parents confirmed his age. Well they would wouldn't they
? End of "incident."The point is, in this day and age stories can be easily checked. To take the example of Red Devil a page or so ago who spoke to somebody at Kings Cross and got his problem sorted, if an RPO challenged him all he would have to do would be to tell the RPO the story, who would then get on his mobile blower to confirm it. If of course it then transpired that the story was a load of dingo's kidneys, the RPOs demeanour may well change.
As I said earlier in this thread, in the same way as any other company, the railway will do itself no good if it gets up the noses of good customers. They will do themselves a lot of good if they discourage people who think they can travel for nothing, or make up their own rules about which train they can use as they go along, from doing it again.
Edited by rs1952 on Saturday 28th September 21:14
There isn't a business in the entire world that proudly displays in reception a company mission statement along the lines of "We aim to piss our customers off and do it with a passion." *
There are plenty who do either due to their own or employee's ineptitude and/or aptitude.
There are plenty who do either due to their own or employee's ineptitude and/or aptitude.
- * This observation clearly excludes every speed camera partnership.
FiF said:
There isn't a business in the entire world that proudly displays in reception a company mission statement along the lines of "We aim to piss our customers off and do it with a passion." *
There are plenty who do either due to their own or employee's ineptitude and/or aptitude.
And Traffic WardensThere are plenty who do either due to their own or employee's ineptitude and/or aptitude.
- * This observation clearly excludes every speed camera partnership.
Maybe it is just south east trains, but I see a lot of people with no ticket at all and most claim to have no ID on them.
Remember, these are just the ones unfortunate to be on a train where the inspector checks all tickets, and not just the closest to the middle. A lot get on and off without being challenged, probably regularly.
I also see a few get very abusive to the inspectors when caught (from name calling, to accusations of sexuality, parentage , but only once a huge claim of racism). Usually in an attempt to get away with payment, but on two occasions I have personally witnessed that both developed into a stand-off, the train has been stopped at a station until the police have arrived to remove them.
At lot of people are commenting on here from the perspective of someone on the outside looking in, but you get a different perspective when you actually see the rock face, so to speak.
Before the obvious comments about, someone not having money to pay, so they should be given some slack - that cannot be the case where these struggling people have shopping bags with clothes shop logos on them. Not the same thing at all.
Remember, these are just the ones unfortunate to be on a train where the inspector checks all tickets, and not just the closest to the middle. A lot get on and off without being challenged, probably regularly.
I also see a few get very abusive to the inspectors when caught (from name calling, to accusations of sexuality, parentage , but only once a huge claim of racism). Usually in an attempt to get away with payment, but on two occasions I have personally witnessed that both developed into a stand-off, the train has been stopped at a station until the police have arrived to remove them.
At lot of people are commenting on here from the perspective of someone on the outside looking in, but you get a different perspective when you actually see the rock face, so to speak.
Before the obvious comments about, someone not having money to pay, so they should be given some slack - that cannot be the case where these struggling people have shopping bags with clothes shop logos on them. Not the same thing at all.
I appreciate the point made above that no company sets out to p
s off their customers and I'd agree with that to a large degree, but I don't think it applies to the TOCs. They have, to varying degrees, a monopoly, and thus no real incentive not to ps off their customers- it's not like you say "SW Trains are a load of dicks, I'll use another operator instead in future, just as soon as I move house and job".
So they might not set out to piss people off, but it doesn't cause them any real problems when they do. It's not dissimilar to the DVLA - They don't intend to make a mess of your reg transfer, but it happens, and they don't really care because you can't take your business elsewhere.
I know that passengers could use the car/fly/bus it instead, but in a world where the taxpayer massively subsidises the TOCs, we're all paying for them regardless of whether we actually use the trains.
Which brings me back to my previous point - if, say, 10k season ticket holders could sign a petition to get the TOC kicked off their franchise (with no recompense), the TOCs would be a lot more eager to keep passengers onside.
s off their customers and I'd agree with that to a large degree, but I don't think it applies to the TOCs. They have, to varying degrees, a monopoly, and thus no real incentive not to ps off their customers- it's not like you say "SW Trains are a load of dicks, I'll use another operator instead in future, just as soon as I move house and job". So they might not set out to piss people off, but it doesn't cause them any real problems when they do. It's not dissimilar to the DVLA - They don't intend to make a mess of your reg transfer, but it happens, and they don't really care because you can't take your business elsewhere.
I know that passengers could use the car/fly/bus it instead, but in a world where the taxpayer massively subsidises the TOCs, we're all paying for them regardless of whether we actually use the trains.
Which brings me back to my previous point - if, say, 10k season ticket holders could sign a petition to get the TOC kicked off their franchise (with no recompense), the TOCs would be a lot more eager to keep passengers onside.
spitsfire said:
I appreciate the point made above that no company sets out to ps off their customers and I'd agree with that to a large degree, but I don't think it applies to the TOCs. They have, to varying degrees, a monopoly, and thus no real incentive not to ps off their customers- it's not like you say "SW Trains are a load of dicks, I'll use another operator instead in future, just as soon as I move house and job".
<off-topic>s off their customers and I'd agree with that to a large degree, but I don't think it applies to the TOCs. They have, to varying degrees, a monopoly, and thus no real incentive not to ps off their customers- it's not like you say "SW Trains are a load of dicks, I'll use another operator instead in future, just as soon as I move house and job". Swear filter is apparently broken
tigger1 said:
spitsfire said:
I appreciate the point made above that no company sets out to ps off their customers and I'd agree with that to a large degree, but I don't think it applies to the TOCs. They have, to varying degrees, a monopoly, and thus no real incentive not to ps off their customers- it's not like you say "SW Trains are a load of dicks, I'll use another operator instead in future, just as soon as I move house and job".
<off-topic>s off their customers and I'd agree with that to a large degree, but I don't think it applies to the TOCs. They have, to varying degrees, a monopoly, and thus no real incentive not to ps off their customers- it's not like you say "SW Trains are a load of dicks, I'll use another operator instead in future, just as soon as I move house and job". Swear filter is apparently broken
p
s off our customers
Red Devil said:
I had no choice. I am unaware of any single operator service which connects places in Kent with the ECML, so you have to use LU to get between termini.
(I feel ashamed knowing this) but Southeastern High Speed to St Pancras then walk across the road? Probably only an option around the coast/Ashford/Ebbsfleet mind, anything else would involve a transfer from London Bridge/Charing X/Waterloo E/Cannon St & Kings X.Negative Creep said:
It doesn't have to be one TOC, just one journey. You could buy a ticket from A to C even if it involved multiple operators and changes, but if you bought tickets from A to B then B to C it counts as different journeys.
I still had no choice. The National Rail webpage specifically stated that more than one ticket was required. I don't know why, not that I cared tbh. Yet another example of the tortuous process that characterises modern UK train travel.Whatever the failings of BR, I am old enough to remember the old Edmondson card tickets when you could get one from anywhere to anywhere. If there wasn't a pre-printed ticket, the booking clerk wrote out the details by hand on a stock blank. I used to have a whole collection of them including some where the starting and destination stations had the same name.
rs1952 said:
The point is, in this day and age stories can be easily checked. To take the example of Red Devil a page or so ago who spoke to somebody at Kings Cross and got his problem sorted, if an RPO challenged him all he would have to do would be to tell the RPO the story, who would then get on his mobile blower to confirm it. If of course it then transpired that the story was a load of dingo's kidneys, the RPOs demeanour may well change.
I was well aware of the potential for hassle on the train so I got the clerk at Kings X to provide me with a suitably endorsed note to accompany the ticket. The RPO had no need to make any call(s).alangla said:
Red Devil said:
I had no choice. I am unaware of any single operator service which connects places in Kent with the ECML, so you have to use LU to get between termini.
(I feel ashamed knowing this) but Southeastern High Speed to St Pancras then walk across the road? Probably only an option around the coast/Ashford/Ebbsfleet mind, anything else would involve a transfer from London Bridge/Charing X/Waterloo E/Cannon St & Kings X.Not only does the service fail to connect with the ECML but I also specifically mentioned destinations outside London. Last time I looked St Pancras was still in the capital.
Red Devil said:
Negative Creep said:
It doesn't have to be one TOC, just one journey. You could buy a ticket from A to C even if it involved multiple operators and changes, but if you bought tickets from A to B then B to C it counts as different journeys.
I still had no choice. The National Rail webpage specifically stated that more than one ticket was required. I don't know why, not that I cared tbh. Yet another example of the tortuous process that characterises modern UK train travel.Whatever the failings of BR, I am old enough to remember the old Edmondson card tickets when you could get one from anywhere to anywhere. If there wasn't a pre-printed ticket, the booking clerk wrote out the details by hand on a stock blank. I used to have a whole collection of them including some where the starting and destination stations had the same name.
rs1952 said:
The point is, in this day and age stories can be easily checked. To take the example of Red Devil a page or so ago who spoke to somebody at Kings Cross and got his problem sorted, if an RPO challenged him all he would have to do would be to tell the RPO the story, who would then get on his mobile blower to confirm it. If of course it then transpired that the story was a load of dingo's kidneys, the RPOs demeanour may well change.
I was well aware of the potential for hassle on the train so I got the clerk at Kings X to provide me with a suitably endorsed note to accompany the ticket. The RPO had no need to make any call(s).alangla said:
Red Devil said:
I had no choice. I am unaware of any single operator service which connects places in Kent with the ECML, so you have to use LU to get between termini.
(I feel ashamed knowing this) but Southeastern High Speed to St Pancras then walk across the road? Probably only an option around the coast/Ashford/Ebbsfleet mind, anything else would involve a transfer from London Bridge/Charing X/Waterloo E/Cannon St & Kings X.Not only does the service fail to connect with the ECML but I also specifically mentioned destinations outside London. Last time I looked St Pancras was still in the capital.
I regularly pass across London on multi-operator routes and don't think I've ever had to have more than one ticket per journey.
Red Devil said:
Whatever the failings of BR, I am old enough to remember the old Edmondson card tickets when you could get one from anywhere to anywhere. If there wasn't a pre-printed ticket, the booking clerk wrote out the details by hand on a stock blank. I used to have a whole collection of them including some where the starting and destination stations had the same name.
Ahah! So YOU'RE the bloke that used Euston - Queens Park local tickets to get to Glasgow on the cheap! surveyor said:
There is a direct train from Sevenoaks to St Panc. Stops everywhere though, and is usually quicker to go through London Bridge and change.
That's one of Thameslink line services I referred to earlier. It's weekdays only: Sevenoaks - Kentish Town. In the peak the trains continue to St Albans and Bedford. It is operated jointly by FCC (north of Blackfriars) and Southeastern (Blackfriars and points south). surveyor said:
I regularly pass across London on multi-operator routes and don't think I've ever had to have more than one ticket per journey.
Fair enough. All I know is that, having checked the National Rail site, the anomaly still applies to the specific trains I used. I haven't the faintest idea why. It makes little sense to me.As the overwhelming majority of my journeys were made wholly within the TfL area, the issue simply never arose. On the relatively few occasions when I knew I was going a couple of stops beyond it, I either bought an extension ticket at the relevant terminus or, if the connection was tight, from the conductor on the train. As most of my trips were outside the peak I always went looking for him as I didn't want to risk him finding me, sans valid ticket, after the train had left the last station in the zone!
alangla said:
Red Devil said:
Whatever the failings of BR, I am old enough to remember the old Edmondson card tickets when you could get one from anywhere to anywhere. If there wasn't a pre-printed ticket, the booking clerk wrote out the details by hand on a stock blank. I used to have a whole collection of them including some where the starting and destination stations had the same name.
Ahah! So YOU'RE the bloke that used Euston - Queens Park local tickets to get to Glasgow on the cheap! ) I recount the tale from the summer of 1967 when certain individuals were doing a Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-Carlisle-Preston-Manchester round trip on a Saturday, mainly behind steam, on a Manchester Victoria platform ticket...It was rather interesting on the last day that this could be done, Saturday 26th August, when the ticket inspector changed his routine and checked the "Jubilee" hauled relief 1017 Leeds to Carlisle beyond Skipton, rather than doing it on the southern part of the journey. Somebody had a carriage key and locked the last two coaches against him
I wonder what latter-day RPOs would make of that?
And Edmondson card tickets? I've still got a box of the bloody things under my desk
I regularly use my season ticket to get to London, then my PAYG oyster card to get to a different train terminus and then catch a train from their on an advance ticket with seat reserved.
In my experience if you have left the correct amount of time (and its in the National Rail Carriage Conditions somewhere) to cross London then if you arrive too late for your booked service due to an issue on your incoming train or London Underground service then you will be able to change your ticket at the ticket office.
Delay repay can also give good results. A few months ago I was going to Skipton, was only meant to be there fore an hour or so. Got to Kings Cross and no trains due to an overhead issue at Peterborough. Was told to go to St Pancras and catch the East Midlands service and change at Sheffield and Leeds. So I did this and did it on the way back.
Then I was able to claim a full refund of my tickets from East Coast (in vouchers) as was delayed more than an hour each way, and East Coast sent me a £15 M and S voucher too! Great result!
In my experience if you have left the correct amount of time (and its in the National Rail Carriage Conditions somewhere) to cross London then if you arrive too late for your booked service due to an issue on your incoming train or London Underground service then you will be able to change your ticket at the ticket office.
Delay repay can also give good results. A few months ago I was going to Skipton, was only meant to be there fore an hour or so. Got to Kings Cross and no trains due to an overhead issue at Peterborough. Was told to go to St Pancras and catch the East Midlands service and change at Sheffield and Leeds. So I did this and did it on the way back.
Then I was able to claim a full refund of my tickets from East Coast (in vouchers) as was delayed more than an hour each way, and East Coast sent me a £15 M and S voucher too! Great result!
OP update.
Well it seems that this thread got derailed (haha) from the original subject though has rightly highlighted a lot of other problems with the various rail companies. Anyhow this is how things panned out...
today marks 6 months and 1 day since the 'offence' (so beyond the 6 month prosecution threshold) and despite advice to leave it lie (sorry Breadvan) I just had to find out what the score was so I rang TIL. They wouldn't speak to me so I had to get my daughter on the phone to ID herself to them. They told my daughter her case had been 'withdrawn' through her I asked why we hadn't heard anything and they replied they don't let us know!!! How mad and arrogant is that!! My daughter got flustered and hung up.
I just hope these barstewards get their comeuppnce and what is clearly unfair legislation gets repealed. I will be letting my MP know the update but ask that he continue to pursue the matter.
Well it seems that this thread got derailed (haha) from the original subject though has rightly highlighted a lot of other problems with the various rail companies. Anyhow this is how things panned out...
today marks 6 months and 1 day since the 'offence' (so beyond the 6 month prosecution threshold) and despite advice to leave it lie (sorry Breadvan) I just had to find out what the score was so I rang TIL. They wouldn't speak to me so I had to get my daughter on the phone to ID herself to them. They told my daughter her case had been 'withdrawn' through her I asked why we hadn't heard anything and they replied they don't let us know!!! How mad and arrogant is that!! My daughter got flustered and hung up.
I just hope these barstewards get their comeuppnce and what is clearly unfair legislation gets repealed. I will be letting my MP know the update but ask that he continue to pursue the matter.
Of course there won't be any apologies as obviously she was guilty and just got away with it, don't cha know! The haters will hate whatever. Not going to let it worry me one iota.
As for daughter dear, she is 4 months into a job in my local Sainsburys (pending an eventual career working with animals) and doing OK (apart from the attentions of one psycho bh bullying supervisor). She is taking driving lessons on the proceeds of the job and clearing the shelves of ebay on a buying spree with her new found 'wealth' and also happy with the 7 month ongoing boyfriend.
Me, I'm pleased she hasn't a conviction on her record and that my MP continues to follow up TIl's behaviour with an eventual hope the law will be repealed.
On this last subject - it appears that not enough people are complaining to their MP's about this. If others here have suffered from this injustice please take it up with your own MP but ask them to liaise with mine (Jonathan Evans - Cardiff North) as he is already on the case.
As for daughter dear, she is 4 months into a job in my local Sainsburys (pending an eventual career working with animals) and doing OK (apart from the attentions of one psycho b
h bullying supervisor). She is taking driving lessons on the proceeds of the job and clearing the shelves of ebay on a buying spree with her new found 'wealth' and also happy with the 7 month ongoing boyfriend.Me, I'm pleased she hasn't a conviction on her record and that my MP continues to follow up TIl's behaviour with an eventual hope the law will be repealed.
On this last subject - it appears that not enough people are complaining to their MP's about this. If others here have suffered from this injustice please take it up with your own MP but ask them to liaise with mine (Jonathan Evans - Cardiff North) as he is already on the case.
Edited by elanfan on Thursday 16th January 12:13
Negative Creep said:
Out of interest how would you like the law regarding this to be changed?
Sorry didn't notice your reply until today.In my view there needs to be a law to deal with fare dodgers and not with innocent mistakes. The law could stand but make it that it can be fought in court and not a fait accompli as it currently stands - read the thread if you don't understand how unfair things are at the moment. Also would like it that a Private Company should not be able to bring about CRIMINAL convictions i.e it would need to go via CPS (though they'd need to open a whole new office just to deal with the cases that TIL bring forward).
Please pester your MP's and ask them to liaise with Jonathan Evans MP for Cardiff North
elanfan said:
Negative Creep said:
Out of interest how would you like the law regarding this to be changed?
Sorry didn't notice your reply until today.In my view there needs to be a law to deal with fare dodgers and not with innocent mistakes. The law could stand but make it that it can be fought in court and not a fait accompli as it currently stands - read the thread if you don't understand how unfair things are at the moment. Also would like it that a Private Company should not be able to bring about CRIMINAL convictions i.e it would need to go via CPS (though they'd need to open a whole new office just to deal with the cases that TIL bring forward).
Please pester your MP's and ask them to liaise with Jonathan Evans MP for Cardiff North
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