Oldschool 'Vettes...
Discussion
All I know is that I really really really really wanted a C2 but I sat in one in Dart a few years ago now and couldn't believe how much slack there was in the steering. I've heard of the sneeze factor but on this one, you could sneeze, go and make yourself a cup of tea, come back and the car would still be going straight. Didn't drive it, that was a static impression and it put me off.
Well, when my husband first drove our 2002 he remarked that it handles MUCH better than his Dad's '69 C3 that he used to borrow as a kid... and then he proceeded to take a 40mph corner at over 100 to prove his point. From memory, it handled like a bit of a pig and would break away without notice...
On the upside, that's exactly what it was meant to do to put a smile on your face!
-kenski
On the upside, that's exactly what it was meant to do to put a smile on your face!
-kenski
Dan boy, like all these things its how long is a piece of string. At the 'ecomomy end' say 3 to 5k you are looking at something that will require major work. You can get a good late 70's C3 for about 10k but if you are looking for a high quality C2 or early C3 you are looking at the 15 to 20k.
Okay JT, what are they like to drive? Well if you are looking for a circuit racer, you have a lot of work to do. As with any old car if the suspension has not been looked after handling will be crap. If you make sure it has good tyres, good shocks, good spring, good suspension bushes and the recirculating ball steering has been looked after then the handling is reasonable, but you still have to be careful on roundabouts in the wet, shall we say! You can however help all that 30 year old technology along by fitting heavier springs, a bigger anti roll bar, adjustable shocks, poly bushings and with proper alignment it can be made to handle pretty well. To get further improvements you have to fit 'smart struts' to the rear, these limit the camber change that lets them step out of line so easily on a wet roundabout and you get rid of the vague steering by fitting the 'steeroids' rack & pinion steering rack. I am told that these last 2 mods make a huge difference, but I cant tell you about them until I get my car back in September.
G
G
jaytee368 said:
G - You're qualified, a C3 rider, what about an answer to part 'B' of DB's post?
My name is "G" so I'll answer (sorry Graeme!). In a word, "FUN"
The trick is to make sure that all suspension & steering componants are in good condition. These things aren't as bad as people like to make out (& if a C5 doesn't handle light years ahead of a C2/C3, which was designed before I was born, then something is very wrong). They were made as a cheap "sports car" that most people could afford, so to compare it to a Ferrari/Porsche is erroneous (though an early 911 in the wet hasn't got what I'd call good handling), as is comparing it to modern handling standards. To be fair they should be compared to Euro sorts cars of the same period. Close to home would be an MGB (NOT an E-type - the masses couldn't afford them) & my C3 with stock steering/suspension systems handles better than my wife's MGB. The only area where the MGB wins is on single track Devon lanes & that's only because you can see what's coming around the corners towards you, the bonnet (hood!) on the Vette is so long that it'd be embedded in a tractor before I even saw it coming!
The MGB also has a much better turning circle & the added advantage of being to see where the front is. How many bushes have I mated with the nose of my C3?! During occasional 5 min periods of madness I've left cars behind that on paper should have been held up by me on the twisty bits & so far I haven't had the rear end come uncontrollably loose on me (maybe I'm not trying hard enough!). Mine doesn't have a rear sway bar so if it starts getting problems due to taking bends to fast/aggresively the rear tyres start breaking loose, giving plenty of time to slow down/pray/close your eyes/let go of the wheel, light a fag & see what happens next. With a rear sway bar fitted to complement the front one ( 1 1/8" front, 3/4" rear is a good combination) the car will corner a lot flatter & faster, but if you overdo it there's not a lot of warning as to which tyre is going to let go first & bam, you'll end up ass first in a ditch.
There's plenty of mods that can be done to improve handling (most notably, fitting decent modern tyres instead of the trendy, look good type (that I've got
). Smart Strutts will solve the ridiculous camber change designed in on the rear wheels. Mine takes corners as fast as I want to when driving at up to the national speed limit. Not sure what it's like at high speeds as I don't break the speed limit. And the pretty tyres I've got are only "S" rated. Somewhere in the past I copied some words from a friend in the US who's done a few mods to his C3 & fitted Pirelli Scorpion tyres so they're somewhere in a previous post (probably on tyres?). The handling gains through a few simple mods are impressive.
If you want a car that has modern handling standards straight from the factory then buy a modern car. If you want something that was OK in it's day, but which you can modify yourself to improve, then an earlier Vette can be a whole heap of fun (buy the wrong one & it can be a whole heap of grief & expense, so take somebody who knows them with you to look at one).
cheers
L81 (or G2) I would stay away from the rear sway bar unless you are looking at extreme driving. Whilst it does give a bit of improvenent in overall handling, when you are nearing the limit the rear end snaps away very quickly. Without it its a much more progressive (and fun) breakaway. Mind you its an easy mod to fit and take off since all C3's came with the rear chassis drilled for the rear sway bar mounts. So if you dont mind the cos of buying one and they aint that dear (there's the sweaty coming out in me again!) You can try one out for yourself.
G
G
VetteG said:
L81 (or G2) I would stay away from the rear sway bar unless you are looking at extreme driving. Whilst it does give a bit of improvenent in overall handling, when you are nearing the limit the rear end snaps away very quickly. Without it its a much more progressive (and fun) breakaway. G
Hi Graeme,
That's exactly how my mate in the US described it. If I was a lot younger & more alert then I'd probably fit one for the flatter cornering, but these days I'm always constantly 1/2 asleep so need more warning of problems
Apart from that, I quite like the feel that the rear wheels give on corners as there's plenty of feedback as to whats happening ie. plenty of grip left or, hold on tight coz you've really gone & done it this time 
Rather than spending out on a swaybar I'd rather get the problem at it's root & fit some grippy tyres, but I must have some sweaty in me as I refuse to replace a set of fairly new tyres I also think that Smart Struts would be a better result as, even with one rear tyre having to grip more than the other due to no sway bar, if the tyre is flat on the road then it's going to hold on better (or so the marketing blurb says...) cheers
The way I describe driving my mid-life crisis is its like piloting an old fighter.....it's noisy, it's smelly, you pretty much just have to live with the pitches and rolls, and you have to have great respect for the external conditions (otherwise you end up wrapped round trees/shaking hands with the family in the MPV in front).
But that's the utter beauty of it to me....when my cashflow improves, I badly want a Nissan 350z roadster aswell. It won't need to live connected to a trickle charger, and I can nip down the shops in all weather, and feel OK leaving it. But it'll never make me laugh out loud when I get back on the drive after a top-off blast.
Steeroids are on Ecklers for $1249...it'd ruffly translate as that in £'s after shipping/VAT. Sorely tempted, would stop the 'electric eel' steering wheel action, which never even makes the car veer off the straight line. Ain't too many roundabouts in the States! Adjustable Koni's coming from Florida - can't wait. I've got everything else bar Pirellis (which do still come in 8 x 15 to fit Rally wheels). Vette Brakes struts, f&r sway bars, new bushes n springs, etc. Vastly improved, but still 'loose', it'd describe it - compared to modern muscle. See argument above.
Old Vettes are a looks/sound/passion thing....as cars frankly they're c*ap. They're upmarket tractors with a truck engine - and you love em or leave em.
I feel like I'm really driving that car, even at 40 mph...and that's why you'd have to prize the keys out of my cold, dead hand.
>> Edited by 76vette on Sunday 10th April 16:40
is its like piloting an old fighter.....it's noisy, it's smelly, you pretty much just have to live with the pitches and rolls, and you have to have great respect for the external conditions (otherwise you end up wrapped round trees/shaking hands with the family in the MPV in front). But that's the utter beauty of it to me....when my cashflow improves, I badly want a Nissan 350z roadster aswell. It won't need to live connected to a trickle charger, and I can nip down the shops in all weather, and feel OK leaving it. But it'll never make me laugh out loud when I get back on the drive after a top-off blast.
Steeroids are on Ecklers for $1249...it'd ruffly translate as that in £'s after shipping/VAT. Sorely tempted, would stop the 'electric eel' steering wheel action, which never even makes the car veer off the straight line. Ain't too many roundabouts in the States! Adjustable Koni's coming from Florida - can't wait. I've got everything else bar Pirellis (which do still come in 8 x 15 to fit Rally wheels). Vette Brakes struts, f&r sway bars, new bushes n springs, etc. Vastly improved, but still 'loose', it'd describe it - compared to modern muscle. See argument above.
Old Vettes are a looks/sound/passion thing....as cars frankly they're c*ap. They're upmarket tractors with a truck engine - and you love em or leave em.
I feel like I'm really driving that car, even at 40 mph...and that's why you'd have to prize the keys out of my cold, dead hand.
>> Edited by 76vette on Sunday 10th April 16:40
76vette said:
The way I describe driving my mid-life crisis
Completely off topic, but on Easter Saturday I was in my garden (digging footings for a garage for the Vette!) when an ME109E flew very low over me, followed soon after by various WWI/WWII fighters & finishing off with a Spitfire doing a display, including a loop right above me
Awesome, I want a car that sounds like that! [quote]
But that's the utter beauty of it to me....when my cashflow improves, I badly want a Nissan 350z roadster aswell. It won't need to live connected to a trickle charger, and I can nip down the shops in all weather, and feel OK leaving it. But it'll never make me laugh out loud when I get back on the drive after a top-off blast.
[/quote]
My neighbour bought a 350z & promtly sold it as he said it was boring. Now owns a new Skyline which he says is awesome. Going by what he said I think I'd take a long test drive before spending the money....
[quote]
Steeroids are on Ecklers for $1249...it'd ruffly translate as that in £'s after shipping/VAT. Sorely tempted, would stop the 'electric eel' steering wheel action, which never even makes the car veer off the straight line. Ain't too many roundabouts in the States!
[/quote]
Steeroids are the one thing that would solve my only gripe about my C3 which is the vague steering when in a straight line (constantly needing minor corrections). On bends it's fine, it's just long straights where I notice it, but that's a shed load of money
[quote]
Adjustable Koni's coming from Florida - can't wait.
[/quote]
Have you ordered/paid for them? Camberley Auto Factors (in Camberley!) apparently import them & can get a set for a C3 easily without the shipping & duty you'd pay from the US. I have the part numbers somewhere if you need them. I fitted Spax (available from Richard Jeal who's on this forum) & they transformed the ride. Money well spent.
You wouldn't be Henson1954 from "another forum" would you?
Graeme,
I'd like to say "roll on september" for you, but this years going too fast as it is
cheers
edit: Buggered up those quotes, didn't I?
>> Edited by L81 on Monday 11th April 18:13
Henson??.....nope, not me.
I was enquiring on specific Koni #'s when Ecklers said they could now freight them via Bax Global. Thought with a decent exchange rate it'd save a bit of faffing. Seems daft tho, I know. Twiddling my thumbs waiting for 'em now.....
Trying to coax my seatbelt to release me so I could get the keys out, I nudged the nose onto the concrete wall at the end of garage the other night. Time to find the right shade of nail varnish again!!
>> Edited by 76vette on Tuesday 12th April 18:03
I was enquiring on specific Koni #'s when Ecklers said they could now freight them via Bax Global. Thought with a decent exchange rate it'd save a bit of faffing. Seems daft tho, I know. Twiddling my thumbs waiting for 'em now.....
Trying to coax my seatbelt to release me so I could get the keys out, I nudged the nose onto the concrete wall at the end of garage the other night. Time to find the right shade of nail varnish again!!
>> Edited by 76vette on Tuesday 12th April 18:03
Having owned old and new I can't say which is better. The older cars don't handle as well but that is part of their charm. The 72 I had handled very well and had so much fun driving it. Okay it doesn't handle like my 92 but there is twenty years difference in technology. The 92 gets a further 18mpg compared to the old 72 but can't beat it for looks. It's your choice what you like. Some of the older cars don't handle well because they are old and haven't been looked after properly. Have a good nosey around the car before you buy. Check history on the car and if they say they've done lots of work on the car ask for reciepts. An old car which has been serviced and set up properly will handle and can put a lot of modern cars to shame. Yes there are some really bad handling vettes but that means there is something wrong and soemtimes it's not obvious what the problem is. Problems which you think are coming from the front can actually be traced to the back of the car. I was lucky with the 72 because the previous owner had already upgraded and renewed the full suspension. This is a lot cheaper than trying to do it yourself.
So if your after a daily runner to can drive 500 miles in and get out feeling no ill effects buy a modern vette, but if you want something to go out and have fun in (takes about an hour to wipe the smile of your face) then buy an old one. You don't have to be going as hard to feel as if your enjoying it and even the C4 is a bit twitchy in the wet (and that's with traction control).
So if your after a daily runner to can drive 500 miles in and get out feeling no ill effects buy a modern vette, but if you want something to go out and have fun in (takes about an hour to wipe the smile of your face) then buy an old one. You don't have to be going as hard to feel as if your enjoying it and even the C4 is a bit twitchy in the wet (and that's with traction control).
HEY DAN BOY I'll sell u my 84 cheep 7k u pay the shippping!!!! Holds the twisties like on rails(ride is harsh typ of the 84) and big guys (i'm 6'4") fit into a c4 quite a bit better that the c3's i've been in. Put an adj shock system in the old 84 and she would prob. ride darn good as my 92 zr-1 i'd bet!!! anyway just my two bits..there is a club member in my local club who is 6'5" and he does drive a c2, not sure how he fits i really dont think i would be comfy in a c1 or c2 at my size... saw the big boy 6'5" in a pic riddin in a members c3...what a joke his whole head was above the windsheild...Hell even the c5 targa roll bar hits my head cause it curves at the end(and moved 4-ward for the trunk) and i would not own one of these...the vert however is fine, but i feel naked without the roll bar.... just my two pence worth!!!!
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