150bhp Sigma or similar powered K?
Discussion
Was fortunate enough to spend several hours down at Caterham South yesterday with a very helpful staff member who couldn't have been more helpful.
Discussing requirements with him, it seemed an SV would be the best way to go. They had a very nice Sigma based car with the 150bhp upgrade which they kindly took me out in briefly.
This particular car was on roller barrel throttle bodies and was a good spec with low miles. It was commanding a fair premium as a result and not miles away from the cost of a new kit.
My question is this, with there being more k series based cars out there in the SV format and with a few available around the 160bhp mark, which am I likely to get along with more, a sigma based car or K series?
I loved the sound the Sigma made but was concious that if I started to want more power, the Sigma engined car was perhaps not the ideal base. I appreciate that after market tuners are starting to do stuff with the sigma now but from what Caterham were telling me, I'd be silly to change the spec for fear of damaging resale values.
Switching to the K would probably give me more options for a car with slightly more grunt that 150bhp. Also, there are the likes of Dave Andrews et al that could provide proven upgrades in the future. I might also be lucky and find one at or around r300 levels which on paper seems like the ideal performance for me at the moment.
So my question is, should I be ignoring the Sigma and going for a K instead? Seems more choice available and I've heard in some ways the K has a character more suited to the Caterham? Have been in 2 cars to date and both have been Sigma based cars, 1 was the standard 125 (too slow) and the other on Throttle bodies with the rest of CC 150bhp upgrades. The latter seemed very nice and made a great noise but test drive was cut short so hard to fully evaluate the difference over the base car.
In an ideal world I'd be going for a car with the Duratec engine but realistically I thinks it's going to be too expensive for me to realistically do that. A k series car could offer me similar performance for less hence the appeal. Would it be a step backwards from the sigma based cars though?
All thoughts appreciated.
Tom
Discussing requirements with him, it seemed an SV would be the best way to go. They had a very nice Sigma based car with the 150bhp upgrade which they kindly took me out in briefly.
This particular car was on roller barrel throttle bodies and was a good spec with low miles. It was commanding a fair premium as a result and not miles away from the cost of a new kit.
My question is this, with there being more k series based cars out there in the SV format and with a few available around the 160bhp mark, which am I likely to get along with more, a sigma based car or K series?
I loved the sound the Sigma made but was concious that if I started to want more power, the Sigma engined car was perhaps not the ideal base. I appreciate that after market tuners are starting to do stuff with the sigma now but from what Caterham were telling me, I'd be silly to change the spec for fear of damaging resale values.
Switching to the K would probably give me more options for a car with slightly more grunt that 150bhp. Also, there are the likes of Dave Andrews et al that could provide proven upgrades in the future. I might also be lucky and find one at or around r300 levels which on paper seems like the ideal performance for me at the moment.
So my question is, should I be ignoring the Sigma and going for a K instead? Seems more choice available and I've heard in some ways the K has a character more suited to the Caterham? Have been in 2 cars to date and both have been Sigma based cars, 1 was the standard 125 (too slow) and the other on Throttle bodies with the rest of CC 150bhp upgrades. The latter seemed very nice and made a great noise but test drive was cut short so hard to fully evaluate the difference over the base car.
In an ideal world I'd be going for a car with the Duratec engine but realistically I thinks it's going to be too expensive for me to realistically do that. A k series car could offer me similar performance for less hence the appeal. Would it be a step backwards from the sigma based cars though?
All thoughts appreciated.
Tom
I've just bought a car and asked similar questions.
I was convinced that a Ford engined car would be the way forward, newer design and no potential head gasket issues. Did my on line research and visited several area meetings of the Lotus Seven Owners Club.
I now have sitting in my garage a 1.8K 140bhp SV Roadsport, it is a 2004 car but has only done 5000 miles.
Budget for me was a consideration but many owners rave about the K series. I was concerned about the reliability of the headgasket and it would appear that whilst the issue can't be ignored if you let it warm up before you thrash it and keep an eye on the coolant levels your car shouldn't suffer. The money you save buying a K vs a Ford will give you "upgrade" money or fix the head gasket should it go.
As you say the K is a well known and upgrades are available.
The 2 best bits of advice I was given was to drive some cars and see what you like. There is no right or wrong answer to your question. Secondly you could agonise over K vs Ford for ever and a day. Just buy a car that you like and enjoy it.
I was convinced that a Ford engined car would be the way forward, newer design and no potential head gasket issues. Did my on line research and visited several area meetings of the Lotus Seven Owners Club.
I now have sitting in my garage a 1.8K 140bhp SV Roadsport, it is a 2004 car but has only done 5000 miles.
Budget for me was a consideration but many owners rave about the K series. I was concerned about the reliability of the headgasket and it would appear that whilst the issue can't be ignored if you let it warm up before you thrash it and keep an eye on the coolant levels your car shouldn't suffer. The money you save buying a K vs a Ford will give you "upgrade" money or fix the head gasket should it go.
As you say the K is a well known and upgrades are available.
The 2 best bits of advice I was given was to drive some cars and see what you like. There is no right or wrong answer to your question. Secondly you could agonise over K vs Ford for ever and a day. Just buy a car that you like and enjoy it.
Emily's dad said:
whilst the issue can't be ignored if you let it warm up before you thrash it and keep an eye on the coolant levels your car shouldn't suffer.
I don't want to sound anti-k as I love the 1600k caterham, but I don't think that the HG issues are specifically linked with working the engine hard before it's up to temp. Some of the things that cause the HG to go like liner heights are just there regardless of how much you warm up before giving it the beans.Bert
I don't understand all this focus on the head gasket issue, and I certainly don't think that it is important enough to be included in a K vs. Sigma evaluation. IF the head gasket fails it's a simple job to replace it, and that is a big IF as the newer K's seem to be much more solid than the first batch who earned the reputation as head gasket eaters.
That said, I would personally go for a Sigma. Simply because I like the idea of running an engine of a newer design.
ps. I own a 185bhp K-series SV, and I am very happy with it
That said, I would personally go for a Sigma. Simply because I like the idea of running an engine of a newer design.
ps. I own a 185bhp K-series SV, and I am very happy with it
I see what you are saying, but I don't agree. If we put aside the likelihood of k-hg failure for a minute, my point was that it's a false premise to think that by warming it up fully before giving it welly and all that stuff people say you will protect against it. I also think that for those people who haven't experienced it, they will think pah, overblown hype and never happened to me.
And over the years I've seen a procession of my own and other peoples' steaming k's in my garage (attached to my house, not a business) which makes me think it's worth taking into account.
And yes it's not the hardest thing in the world to do. Drain coolant and oil, dismantle to get the head off, dismantle the head, get it skimmed, re-lap the valves, assemble the head, decide whether to fit verniers, do the slot trick or live with the slightly off cam timing, reassamble the engine, time the cams, refill with oil and coolant and off you go.
And to the OPs question, what would I do now? Well I have no desire for big horse power caterhams nor the need of an upgrade path, so it depends on budget for me. If budget allowed I'd go sigma or duranail. If not, I'd go k 135-160bhp. Suits my granny driving.
Bert
And over the years I've seen a procession of my own and other peoples' steaming k's in my garage (attached to my house, not a business) which makes me think it's worth taking into account.
And yes it's not the hardest thing in the world to do. Drain coolant and oil, dismantle to get the head off, dismantle the head, get it skimmed, re-lap the valves, assemble the head, decide whether to fit verniers, do the slot trick or live with the slightly off cam timing, reassamble the engine, time the cams, refill with oil and coolant and off you go.
And to the OPs question, what would I do now? Well I have no desire for big horse power caterhams nor the need of an upgrade path, so it depends on budget for me. If budget allowed I'd go sigma or duranail. If not, I'd go k 135-160bhp. Suits my granny driving.
Bert
BertBert said:
I see what you are saying, but I don't agree. If we put aside the likelihood of k-hg failure for a minute, my point was that it's a false premise to think that by warming it up fully before giving it welly and all that stuff people say you will protect against it. I also think that for those people who haven't experienced it, they will think pah, overblown hype and never happened to me.
And over the years I've seen a procession of my own and other peoples' steaming k's in my garage (attached to my house, not a business) which makes me think it's worth taking into account.
And yes it's not the hardest thing in the world to do. Drain coolant and oil, dismantle to get the head off, dismantle the head, get it skimmed, re-lap the valves, assemble the head, decide whether to fit verniers, do the slot trick or live with the slightly off cam timing, reassamble the engine, time the cams, refill with oil and coolant and off you go.
And to the OPs question, what would I do now? Well I have no desire for big horse power caterhams nor the need of an upgrade path, so it depends on budget for me. If budget allowed I'd go sigma or duranail. If not, I'd go k 135-160bhp. Suits my granny driving.
Bert
Thanks Bert, useful advice.And over the years I've seen a procession of my own and other peoples' steaming k's in my garage (attached to my house, not a business) which makes me think it's worth taking into account.
And yes it's not the hardest thing in the world to do. Drain coolant and oil, dismantle to get the head off, dismantle the head, get it skimmed, re-lap the valves, assemble the head, decide whether to fit verniers, do the slot trick or live with the slightly off cam timing, reassamble the engine, time the cams, refill with oil and coolant and off you go.
And to the OPs question, what would I do now? Well I have no desire for big horse power caterhams nor the need of an upgrade path, so it depends on budget for me. If budget allowed I'd go sigma or duranail. If not, I'd go k 135-160bhp. Suits my granny driving.
Bert
Budget will defo allow for Sigma car if required. Might even be able stretch to a new Supersport R if I could get the other half to rethink the idea of having to have an SV. It Adds £2500 grand that I could do without.
Of course the k-series issues are a concern but I guess what I'm really getting at is, when a k series is working as it should, is it actually a more preferable engine to the sigma? From what I hear the revvy nature is almost more suitable to the general characteristics of a Caterham.
The salesman at Caterham was certainly of the opinion that they would never have switched to Ford units had Rover not gone bust. This could possibly be more to do with the additional price they are paying for the Ford engines however and less about the K series being the engine of choice from a drive ability/ characteristic perspective.
I've not driven a Sigma, so not in a place to give a valid opionion! I think the k-series suits the 7 down to the ground though. Of the 7s I've owned (only 4), the 1600 k supersport was my fav and it was very well behaved. Blew it's HG before I bought it and after I sold it, but not when I owned it 
And to be fair, my k-R500 didn't actually blow its HG when it grenaded either!
Bert
And to be fair, my k-R500 didn't actually blow its HG when it grenaded either!Bert
I've got one of each, not fair to compare them as the are at the moment (230bhp K and 125bhp Sigma) but I did start out with a 140bhp K and have had a 165bhp as well (all in the same car) plus I've driven a 1600k with 115bhp as well. Both engines are good but have different characters. The K loves to rev whereas the Sigma feels a bit torquier at lower revs and there doesn't seem to be much point in pushing it to the rev limit as there is no extra power up there.
Personally I like the K, I think it suits the car very well and in 28,000 miles I haven't had any head gasket issues. For a mainly road use car with the occasional trackday then I think 160 bhp is about right, my 230bhp does very few road miles now as you just can't have the fun of wringing out the performance, it's too bonkers.
There does seem to be some good Sigma tuning work out there now, Premier Motorsport are offering upgrades to 200bhp now so the Sigma can take you to R400 territory should you want to go there!
As for upgrades impacting resale - yes there is some truth in this, people can be put off by non=standard cars a bit, mainly first time buyers I suspect, also if you do pay for upgrades you'll not recover the cost at resale time. If you are planning on long term ownership then this is less of an issue of course.
There is a quite nice SV for sale on blatchat as well if you haven't seen it http://www.blatchat.com/t.asp?id=228790
Personally I like the K, I think it suits the car very well and in 28,000 miles I haven't had any head gasket issues. For a mainly road use car with the occasional trackday then I think 160 bhp is about right, my 230bhp does very few road miles now as you just can't have the fun of wringing out the performance, it's too bonkers.
There does seem to be some good Sigma tuning work out there now, Premier Motorsport are offering upgrades to 200bhp now so the Sigma can take you to R400 territory should you want to go there!
As for upgrades impacting resale - yes there is some truth in this, people can be put off by non=standard cars a bit, mainly first time buyers I suspect, also if you do pay for upgrades you'll not recover the cost at resale time. If you are planning on long term ownership then this is less of an issue of course.
There is a quite nice SV for sale on blatchat as well if you haven't seen it http://www.blatchat.com/t.asp?id=228790
Drive equivalent examples of each car and make your choice.
Remember that the K series engine dates from the 1980s and went out of production in 2005 (I think that is correct but may be wrong) however there is an extensive support network and there are lots of enthusiastic drivers of K Series engined Caterhams.
The Sigma is still gaining popularity and its only just realising its potential. It has been slow to gain popularity, partly because the Duratec preceded it.
Remember that the K series engine dates from the 1980s and went out of production in 2005 (I think that is correct but may be wrong) however there is an extensive support network and there are lots of enthusiastic drivers of K Series engined Caterhams.
The Sigma is still gaining popularity and its only just realising its potential. It has been slow to gain popularity, partly because the Duratec preceded it.
Golf Juliet Tang said:
Drive equivalent examples of each car and make your choice.....
Absolutely this. As has been said the K Series has a certain character that is different to the Sigma. Personally I wanted something that suited my use of the car, ie a weekend toy, so I went for a 1.8K with a light weight flywheel and roller barrel throttle bodies. Only by driving different cars will you be able to match the experience to your expectation.I love my Sigma and feel no guilt or worry thrashing it on trackdays. It's in 140 tune and has't burn or leaked a drop of oil so far (in 2000 miles including 2 trackdays, it's on 13,500 since '09).
I was put off by the K series after reading plenty of horror stories about them in Elises. I've read since that they're not as bad as all that, but for peace of mind I chose the Ford enginged car.
Of course, after a couple of trackdays, I already want more power! But I'm happy to enjoy what I have for the next few years, and then I'll look at going for a R400 or similar.
I was put off by the K series after reading plenty of horror stories about them in Elises. I've read since that they're not as bad as all that, but for peace of mind I chose the Ford enginged car.
Of course, after a couple of trackdays, I already want more power! But I'm happy to enjoy what I have for the next few years, and then I'll look at going for a R400 or similar.
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