Sequential Gearbox advice
Discussion
Hi , 1st time I've Posted on this forum , at the moment one of my cars I run is a modified sprite , with a 2litre Zetec ( 160 lb of torque and 200 horse ) wthe a long 1st BGH type 9 , and 4;1 lsd anglia back axle , this winter im going to fit a Quaife 6 speed 60G helical box , my qustion ( eventually lol ) has anyone gone from 5 speed to sequential , in either same car or like for like Caterham , and whats the difference like , does it make the car ( much ?? ) quicker ? , what are they like for slow driving in traffic ? , my car is used for sprints, autosolos , and trackdays , but also driven on the road aswell , and I live in the Southeast so will encounter slow driving 
, I've searched back through about 5 pages of posts just to make sure this wasnt an often repeated question , I've convinced myself 99.99 percent for the evolution of my car its the way to go , and Im going to buy it new , so a few experienced ideas would be helpfull , regards , Dal
, I've searched back through about 5 pages of posts just to make sure this wasnt an often repeated question , I've convinced myself 99.99 percent for the evolution of my car its the way to go , and Im going to buy it new , so a few experienced ideas would be helpfull , regards , Dal Edited by dal2litrefrogeye on Wednesday 4th December 15:15
Edited by dal2litrefrogeye on Wednesday 4th December 15:17
I had a 26z in my Caterham for 7 years.
It was pretty robust but expensive to fix when it did fail.
They require closed loop flat shift to avoid damage - the Geartronics system is good.
Clutchless downshifts do not work at all well, when its down 4 gears for a slow corner and require significant skill to perfect.
Your car will feel faster, but in reality there is very little difference. Spending the money on some other part of your car would likely give far more significant gains in times when competing.
It was pretty robust but expensive to fix when it did fail.
They require closed loop flat shift to avoid damage - the Geartronics system is good.
Clutchless downshifts do not work at all well, when its down 4 gears for a slow corner and require significant skill to perfect.
Your car will feel faster, but in reality there is very little difference. Spending the money on some other part of your car would likely give far more significant gains in times when competing.
Via Teflon Turd, but not his old box I have a 26Z in my 200bhp 1.8K which I only use on track. Much prefer it to the 6 speeder that was in it before, just feels right for track use although I'd need to be convinced for road use other than spirited driving. Up shifts are clutchless, downshifts I do with clutch. I have on the bench a geartronics system to go in, but now I'm in Singapore and the Caterham is in Storage it's not going to happen any time soon 
However I would still only use for ignition cut for up shifts rather than the accelerator lift I do now. The data traces show how much you actually come off the power for how long and therefore this can be reduced, but the performance gains are going to be very minimal for an amateur like me, its more the safety that a proper system like GT system will not re-engage the engine if the gear isn't selected fully.
On track the difference in lap speed I doubt I could even register and TT is right, it's an art form to get the downshifts right and working well. Also consider very carefully your clutch choice, as the reduced inertia of a smaller clutch does really help with gear changing as I ran mine originally on a cable operated 7" single plate before installing a 5" twin plate with hydraulic clutch and super lightweight flywheel - again all courtesy of Mr TT. This made a difference to the speed of change and measured through my calibrated limbs.
However, the twin plate 5 incher I imagine may be something you'd really have to adapt to on the road, depending on the combination of flywheel as mine has very little inertia on pull away and you have to get used to it. The other point is that sequentials need to be used very positively, no mucking about, no easing it into gear, they're designed to be slammed into gear up and down, it did take me sometime to get used to that.
However I would still only use for ignition cut for up shifts rather than the accelerator lift I do now. The data traces show how much you actually come off the power for how long and therefore this can be reduced, but the performance gains are going to be very minimal for an amateur like me, its more the safety that a proper system like GT system will not re-engage the engine if the gear isn't selected fully.On track the difference in lap speed I doubt I could even register and TT is right, it's an art form to get the downshifts right and working well. Also consider very carefully your clutch choice, as the reduced inertia of a smaller clutch does really help with gear changing as I ran mine originally on a cable operated 7" single plate before installing a 5" twin plate with hydraulic clutch and super lightweight flywheel - again all courtesy of Mr TT. This made a difference to the speed of change and measured through my calibrated limbs.
However, the twin plate 5 incher I imagine may be something you'd really have to adapt to on the road, depending on the combination of flywheel as mine has very little inertia on pull away and you have to get used to it. The other point is that sequentials need to be used very positively, no mucking about, no easing it into gear, they're designed to be slammed into gear up and down, it did take me sometime to get used to that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anVp7VlwnPw
You'll really enjoy, this is from Spa when I was having to treat the engine carefully ... But it won't be the first video you've seen with a sequential box, but the accelerator trace is accurate and you can see I'm completely off the power fractionally and this can be corrected as TT highlights ...
You'll really enjoy, this is from Spa when I was having to treat the engine carefully ... But it won't be the first video you've seen with a sequential box, but the accelerator trace is accurate and you can see I'm completely off the power fractionally and this can be corrected as TT highlights ...dal2litrefrogeye said:
Thanks for advice as I said ive bassically convinced myself its the way to go , I (think ) appriciate that it is going to make it more raw , ( if it could get any more raw ?? ) but at least no ones said " no dont get one your regret it " , well not yet 
Well I'll say it. I hated driving a sequential caterham on the road. Nice on track, but it would stop me actually using it on the road as a recreational vehicle completely!I have a Elite IL200 sequential box with Dog engagement 5" twin plate super clutch and very light Flywheel in my 7, I only use the car on track and to put it quite bluntly its un drivable on the road and in traffic forget it , Now i am not sure about the Quaife box but if i was you i would try and find someone with that box fitted and get a ride on the road in it , I think you will regret spending all that money on a gearbox that was designed for the track application and never intended to be used on the road.
just out of interest what engine are you using ? torque / power ?I have a K series 255 BHP - 168ft lbs Torque , I know the Sadev box is more friendly to use on the road and Quaife do a semi helical sequential, The problem arises in traffic, If your in 5th gear and pushing along and suddenly hit a line of traffic you have to hit the clutch and change down to 1st quickly and coast to a stop with the clutch still engaged, You have to go through the hole box and its no good pulling up behind a car in 4th or 5th because once the car come to a standstill it becomes very difficult to then move the leaver down to 1st with the car stationary especially with dog engagement. On the up side on Track ONCE you have mastered the technique of the timing of the up change and using heel & toe that you have to use on the down changes presuming your not going to use any flat shifting equipment its very rewarding but it takes time to master especially if your under pressure with another car up your a-se , Further more to save over stressing the box its best not to change down through the gears to slow the car down, Break as late as you can just before you turn in and then flick down positively through the gears a set of break pads are cheaper than a gearbox rebuild.
and apply power through the apex, Its important to fit an Oil temp gauge to the box a lot of damage can done if the oil over heats and change the oil regularly.
Good luck whatever you choose
and apply power through the apex, Its important to fit an Oil temp gauge to the box a lot of damage can done if the oil over heats and change the oil regularly.
Good luck whatever you choose
I would add to Johno's post that I too spent £4k on a lightweight crank, 5.5" twin plate sintered clutch and a suitable flywheel whihc was more like a ring-gear holder. In road use (and considering on the road downshifts are easy to do clutchless) I got about 2k miles per clutch.
The downshifts on the 26z, if you were stuck in traffic were able to be done one at a time when stationary if you lifted the clutch just enough to let the dogs aling in the box.
The other thing about this setup was that it was very harsh on the diff mounts. I broke the chassis on my car twice, and only fixed it with extenisve bracing of the diff. You also need a 2.5" dia prop with better quality U/J's than used in the Caterham spec props.
People have also had bad prop failures, as the prop noses for the type 9 box (which all the bixes require) are only available from a Turkish factory (source Bailey Morris - Caterhams supplier) and the quality is very questionable. I have seen the aftermath of one breaking, and it was not pretty.
The downshifts on the 26z, if you were stuck in traffic were able to be done one at a time when stationary if you lifted the clutch just enough to let the dogs aling in the box.
The other thing about this setup was that it was very harsh on the diff mounts. I broke the chassis on my car twice, and only fixed it with extenisve bracing of the diff. You also need a 2.5" dia prop with better quality U/J's than used in the Caterham spec props.
People have also had bad prop failures, as the prop noses for the type 9 box (which all the bixes require) are only available from a Turkish factory (source Bailey Morris - Caterhams supplier) and the quality is very questionable. I have seen the aftermath of one breaking, and it was not pretty.
thanks for all the previous adsvise , in the end I went for a Quaife 60G , I know some said it would / could make the car ?? errrr ?? "Horrible " , but it was an itch I had to scratch , I looked at the Sadev box as this has nothing but good stuff said about it , but felt as my tunnel is tight the external rods / gearchange wouldnt fit in my car. so the monday after the Autosport show I ordered a box , alloy bellhousing ,(in for a penny etc ) and quaife gear display , all from Chris at Raceline , and went and collected it all 3 weeks later , the following week I stripped my car down , and with my type 9 sitting next to " MY " ?? new G60 , horror s to horror the Quaife was wrong , the input shaft was slightly longer 
, well a phone call to Criss and email back it turned out that I had a box for Caterham with Duratec , and mine was nowhere to be found , well ! the long and short of it Criss at Race line did an exellant job of chasing and sorting the problem , and Quaife were very good too got me another one built in a week and hand deliverd it too . Long story short ,after a bit of a struggle to fit ,my tunnel still needed a bit of fetling ,I got it up and running and had my 1st drive today , all be it a short one around the block , (no front end on car yet ) and so far well pleased , even though the oil was nowhere up to temp the gear change was good and precice and not notchy or noisy and the gear display looks well sexy , looking forward now to putting the rest of car together and giving it a dam good thrash 
, well a phone call to Criss and email back it turned out that I had a box for Caterham with Duratec , and mine was nowhere to be found , well ! the long and short of it Criss at Race line did an exellant job of chasing and sorting the problem , and Quaife were very good too got me another one built in a week and hand deliverd it too . Long story short ,after a bit of a struggle to fit ,my tunnel still needed a bit of fetling ,I got it up and running and had my 1st drive today , all be it a short one around the block , (no front end on car yet ) and so far well pleased , even though the oil was nowhere up to temp the gear change was good and precice and not notchy or noisy and the gear display looks well sexy , looking forward now to putting the rest of car together and giving it a dam good thrash If you are going for a flatshift system, ensure it has a cut *and retard* strategy where the power can be brought back gradually. This will massively help your drivetrain.
I have an aftermarket traction control system fitted to my racebike along with a quickshifter, which allows gearchanges under full power (limited by the TC) leant right over mid corner, without upsetting the bike's chassis. Cheaper "quickshifters" just cut the ignition via a switch/loadcell. This causes massive shocks through the drivetrain, and I wouldn't dare attempt a mid corner shift under power.
Give Neil Wallace at Geartronics a call and see how he handles the shift strategies.
I have an aftermarket traction control system fitted to my racebike along with a quickshifter, which allows gearchanges under full power (limited by the TC) leant right over mid corner, without upsetting the bike's chassis. Cheaper "quickshifters" just cut the ignition via a switch/loadcell. This causes massive shocks through the drivetrain, and I wouldn't dare attempt a mid corner shift under power.
Give Neil Wallace at Geartronics a call and see how he handles the shift strategies.
just a little up date on the quaife box ,( incase anyone else is looking for sequential box advice ) had it in the car for a month now , and covered approx 500 miles , so far the box has been used for local car gattherings a couple of motorway trips from kent to north weald , a sprint , and a drive it day run crossing all the bridges along the Thames , with plenty central London stop start driving , after 300 miles I changed the gear oil filtering it as it drained , and I found the oil to be absolutly clean with no swarf what so ever , things Ive noticed , yes its noisier than my old Type 9 , but just by putting head phones in from phone and having volume half way ish it completly blocked any harshness , (Harshness probably wrong word to use ) , the more positive / quicker you change gear the snicker the change is ,
even after a 3 hrs stop start london run the quality of change was just as good at the end as it was at the start , its not a problem / mission to change down through the box if you are statioary or vertually stopped ,
not only has the gear change speeded things up but having better / closser ratios has transformed the car , as far as flat or clutcless shifting goes , I havent ,Im still dipping the clutch both up and down changes , ( is this a bad or good thing or just a slower way ?? )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TPuIZilTwY
yes very pleased with it and would reconmend , both Quaife and Raceline
even after a 3 hrs stop start london run the quality of change was just as good at the end as it was at the start , its not a problem / mission to change down through the box if you are statioary or vertually stopped ,
not only has the gear change speeded things up but having better / closser ratios has transformed the car , as far as flat or clutcless shifting goes , I havent ,Im still dipping the clutch both up and down changes , ( is this a bad or good thing or just a slower way ?? )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TPuIZilTwY
yes very pleased with it and would reconmend , both Quaife and Raceline
If you have a lazy slow revving engine with a heavy flywheel and clutch your current gear changing method is probably ok. If not...
On the up shifts try loading the gear lever whilst your foot is flat to the floor, then lift off a bit and go back onto the throttle as quickly as your right foot will allow. The box will seamlessly slot into the next gear. The first time you try it only do the liftoff, that way if you get it all wrong, which is difficult to do, you won't be slamming the power back on when the dogs aren't properly engaged.
For the down shifts you have a few options but the easiest is to heal and toe with the clutch, as you are probably already doing. If you can left foot brake you can use a similar method where you blip the throttle except you only need a light pressure on the lever as you've not got the power of the engine keeping the dogs engaged. Too much pressure will just shove it into gear. Left foot braking and blipping takes a bit of practice to get right. Some people just shove it down the box but I have far too much mechanical sympathy to do that.
Dog boxes are better if used positively and placed into gear, but not forced. Being slow and dainty with your shifts will increase the rate of dog wear.
On the up shifts try loading the gear lever whilst your foot is flat to the floor, then lift off a bit and go back onto the throttle as quickly as your right foot will allow. The box will seamlessly slot into the next gear. The first time you try it only do the liftoff, that way if you get it all wrong, which is difficult to do, you won't be slamming the power back on when the dogs aren't properly engaged.
For the down shifts you have a few options but the easiest is to heal and toe with the clutch, as you are probably already doing. If you can left foot brake you can use a similar method where you blip the throttle except you only need a light pressure on the lever as you've not got the power of the engine keeping the dogs engaged. Too much pressure will just shove it into gear. Left foot braking and blipping takes a bit of practice to get right. Some people just shove it down the box but I have far too much mechanical sympathy to do that.
Dog boxes are better if used positively and placed into gear, but not forced. Being slow and dainty with your shifts will increase the rate of dog wear.
Hi I guess its each to thier own, I've had less then good service from Quaife repeatedly for the past 10 years, Sw Motorsport eclipse them for service and the Sadev product is light years ahead,like a few other transmission manufacturers,and Geartronics are the best and unbeatable in every respect but its always tough deciding, and how many times have we all found out the hard and expensive route!! horses for courses etc.Enjoy what ever you have.
BSA said:
I have a Elite IL200 sequential box with Dog engagement 5" twin plate super clutch and very light Flywheel in my 7, I only use the car on track and to put it quite bluntly its un drivable on the road and in traffic forget it , Now i am not sure about the Quaife box but if i was you i would try and find someone with that box fitted and get a ride on the road in it , I think you will regret spending all that money on a gearbox that was designed for the track application and never intended to be used on the road.
I have the same box in my Westfield and it's fine on the road. I'm just looking into a flat shift system. Xoomspeed do an excellent one, plenty of vids on YouTube. Can fit the whole system for a about £1000. Outstanding service tooGassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff