Any tips for achieving oil temp in winter w/Apollo tank?

[panickyjabofoppo]

I've covered around 500 extremely enjoyable miles in the Caterham since August. Best handling Caterham i've ever driven. However, a few miles after buying it, and after reading that senders were not Caterham's forte, I concluded that the temp gauge must be faulty. The temp gauge needle would never budge for fifteen minutes, after which I'd tend to assume the oil must be getting warm. A mystery toggle switch seemed to make it indicate a much higher temperature...
I'd then lean on the engine a little more, then a lot more, and the needle would crawl around to 75-80 after perhaps 20 minutes solid of really extending it.
A few miles later, I realised that the Minister-built car probably didn't have a thermostat. I ordered a remote thermostat, and laid the car up for winter, safe in the knowledge that the engine would soon be a more road-suitable and less thermal-shock prone unit.
Recently, the car came out of hibernation for the Oundle Classic Sprint on the 28th, still sans thermostat. I covered much of the radiator with cardboard to try and generate some heat. Oil temperature didn't seem to budge on the move (45 minutes idling would eventually get it up to an indicated 55 degrees...) but the other reading on the temp gauge, activated by the toggle switch, showed a temperature on the edge of being too hot.
This is when I realised this must be the coolant temperature. If the gauges are at least reasonably accurate (the coolant surely reads high - it reads 40 or 50 as soon as you turn on the ignition...) then I have to conclude that even with warm coolant, I cannot get the oil temp up.

I've read that a Laminova oil/water intercooler can help with this.
Problem is, not only am I about to spend quite a bit on the car to rid it of any remains of slack (new steering rack, new qr boss, new AP brake master cylinder), but I'd also like to keep it to the same spec as it was in 2006 when it did very well in the Roadsport B championship. The new thermostat i'm conceding to as I'd like to keep the engine healthy.

So, finally: Do I need to MTFU and concede that the Laminova is an equally necessary addition for road use? Or, and I'm serious/clutching at straws here, would totally covering the Apollo tank in heatwrap make any appreciable difference? My thinking is that you'd still have over seven litres of oil to warm, but at least you wouldn't have a(nother) giant heatsink in the loop. Any other suggestions on how to up the temperature would be much appreciated. I'm prepared to get saving again if 'proper' mods are the only way to keep the engine warm on the road.

[the_stoat]

I have a dry sumped C20 engined Westfield and had the same issue low oil temp issue despite running a thermostat. One Laminova oil water heat exchanger later and I have rock solid temps on both road and track. The only exception is when running between 40 and 50mph in 5th gear when the oil temp drops to 60 degrees, otherwise oil sits between 80 and 95 degrees and water sits solid at 85. The only point to consider for track use is does your coolant system have excess capacity for dumping heat.

The heat exchanger also does help the oil get up to temp more quickly .

[sjmmarsh]

Psnickyjabofoppo - from what you describe, it sounds like you definitely need a new water sensor as it should start at zero with a cold engine. The oil temp sounds less of a problem - at this time of year oil will take a long time to come up to temp if the engine is just idling. My 1.8 VVC with Apollo tank used to take about 10 minutes of driving to get up to 80 in the summer and longer in the winter. On track the oil temperatures rise quicker and peaked at around 110, which is a tad on the high side. That was after 40mins of track time though....

I am in Stamford if you want me to look it over.

Steve

[Shropcat]

Looking back at the Minister engine data pages with most of the engines they built (k series) they indicated that the engine water temperature should be 75C +or- 5 degrees. Mine has a 74c stat an sits around 70C the winter and 75-77C in the summer.

Check it out here - http://web.archive.org/web/20070620192153/http://w...

Go to the customer support pages and then engine data

[BertBert]

I think you should get the temp readings working properly, then you may be able to cover part of the water rad in winter and if you cvan get the oil to 60, you should be ok. It's on the cool side but will be ok. Insulatating the apollo for the winter also sounds a good idea. I'd not faff with an accusump as it shouldn't be needed.

Bert

[ajroberts]

Not sure this is much use but.
I have a K series with an apollo. Just come back from a rebuild 200 miles ago. It now kicks out under 200 bhp with short 4-1 exhaust. The temp on that water rises to 80 in about 5 mins or so of normal driving, oil would take a couple of mins longer maybe 10 mins to get up to temp. Sunday afternoon/night I drove it on the motorway do a constant 70ish the temp stayed at around 80 on both.
I do have a heater and this is on all the time as well, keeps me from freezing.

[panickyjabofoppo]

Thanks for the replies so far.
The stoat - the more I hear about the laminova exchangers the more I like them. My car has an alloy rad which I believe was an upgrade the racers could spec as an option. Everything points to a car designed to hold temperature when being thrashed around a circuit; in other words my feeling is that it has a decent amount of spare cooling capacity.
Steve - I think you're right about the water temp sensor. The oil temp reading, however, I think is correct (or not reading low), as on a single occasion when I first got the car in summer it climbed to 75-80ish and then stayed there during a period of extending the car on a B road. So around a circuit, you'd think it would level out at a standard operating temp. Thing is, if the oil temp reading is correct, I believe my car has more of a warming problem than your 1.8 vvc. The car simply will not show more than 55 degrees oil temp after any amount of time during 'normal' back road driving - and that was even the case back in August! Does that sound plausable ?
Shropcat - I found that link in another thread on here, and very useful it is too. Makes me wish I'd gone for a cooler rated thermostat instead of the 82 degree one I settled on when I bought the QED remote thermostat kit!

If someone could just chime in with a nice 'I heat wrapped my Apollo tank and now my oil comes up to a stable 85deg within five minutes, in the snow' I will be eternally grateful.



Anyone?

[panickyjabofoppo]

Bert - points taken.
Ajrobert - firstly, I'm jealous, and secondly, your experience suggests that either my temp sensors are a bit out, or your tuned 1.8 generates a surely unlikely amount of extra heat than my 115hp 1.6, even when cruising. Fingers crossed my sensors are out.

[sjmmarsh]

Oil temps are nothing to worry about - just drive it harder!

winter temperatures

Lagging Apollo tank

Oil Temp too low

And....

I blank off one third or two thirds of the nosecone opening (depending on the air temp) using some black closed cell foam slipped between the 7 and mesh grilles. I also lag the Apollo tank with a wrap of the same stuff

There is plenty on www.lotus7.club in the archives - search using '"Oil temperature" AND winter'.

Steve

Edited by sjmmarsh on Tuesday 6th January 00:03

[panickyjabofoppo]

Ah look at that. Thanks. I think I'll lag the tank, get the sensors checked, and then try not to worry about it too much!

[Marshallman]

I have the same problem and was also concerned. (1.8VVC). Dry sumped, but no apollo tank. I only bought the car beginning of December.
I purchased the Dashcommand app (£7) for my iphone/ipad and the wifi plug (£13) that plugs into your ODB2 port (diagnostics port)
Pretty sure its also available for other phones types too.
This provides very interesting and useful data.
Shows me the sensor is working properly but the gauge is not providing the correct info on the oil.
Links: http://www.palmerperformance.com/products/dashcomm...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WIFI-iCar-ELM327-OBDII-O...
Hope this helps.
MikeM
North Wales.

Edited by Marshallman on Tuesday 6th January 08:36

[Agent Orange]

panickyjabofoppo said:

Ah look at that. Thanks. I think I'll lag the tank, get the sensors checked, and then try not to worry about it too much!

I would definitely look at the sender and gauge as whilst at New Techniques Tom did mention the gauge was erratic. Can't recall whether the oil pressure or temp but before he could investigate it had resolved itself and was unable replicate the issue.

[IBDAET]

Right, heres something that happened recently on my car. The car was being resprayed and stood outside while it was stripped under a cover. When I got it going I could not get the cooling system to work. The Stack read 110 degrees water temp and I was not brave enough to let it go much higher. This was at idle after 5 or 10 mins running.

I was using a pyrometer and getting warm temps 90 deg+ in the stat loopback part of the system, but at the rad it was pretty cold - especially the bottom hose.

I spent 3 days swapping the sensors and playing with different stats, even running with the stat out which certainly made the rad get much warmer. In time though temp would go off the scale. Strangely the fan never cut in (driven by the VDO switch on the rad) so that got replaced too.

After a lot of messing around things stabilised and and I headed off to France on the NTT trackday at Croix. Halfway down the M20 oil pressure warning. Jumping 20psi, 5psi, 50psi (it never reads much over 50 as Caterham fitted VDO sensors on Stack cars, so it under reads around 30% compared to a mechanical) Water temp and oil temp were also all over the place. At once point coolant was t 250 deg C! I took the decision that a lack of clattering noises and three odd instrument readings meant this was not a mechanical issue. (I was right, thank God)

The issue turned out to be the earth strap between the engine and chassis, where it bolts onto the two 5/16 bolts that hold the drivers side engine mount to the chassis. We found this with a decent multimeter, which showed 10 ohms between engine and batt -ve at idle, increasing to 90 ohms with the headlamps on.

So has it occurred your issue may be entirely electrical? WIth low oil AND water temps, that's where I'd be looking.

Edited by IBDAET on Tuesday 6th January 20:43

[Agent Orange]

IBDAET said:

The issue turned out to be the earth strap between the engine and chassis, where it bolts onto the two 5/16 bolts that hold the drivers side engine mount to the chassis. We found this with a decent multimeter, which showed 10 ohms between engine and batt -ve at idle, increasing to 90 ohms with the headlamps on.

So has it occurred your issue may be entirely electrical? WIth low oil AND water temps, that's where I'd be looking.

Based on my time owning the car that would be my gut feel.

[panickyjabofoppo]

Certainly has occurred to me that it may be partly electrical (water temp gauge surely reads very high [instead of low] and fan kicks in and out in a seemingly normal fashion), but entirely electrical? I'm not so sure, but I actually hope that's the case. If the oil temp gauge turns out to be reading 20 degrees under I'll be over the moon.
I'll check the earth strap fixing, and steve, I'll buy that app and plug, not least because it seems to offer an astounding amount of geekery for twenty quid.

[IBDAET]

Get a digital multimeter and measure your resistances directly between the engine black and battery -ve, and chassis and battery -ve.

Anything over 2 ohms means you have an electrical issue.

Also measure the case of the temp gauge in case it is grounded badly.



There is an earthing point the the top of the drivers side damper and on the wiper motor bracket. On older cars there is also one on the brake union just in front of the drivers footwell on the chassis diagonal. These are the first places to look if you have a problem after you have confirmed a good engine to chassis connection.