Roadsport handling.
Discussion
Hi gents, I would like to go about inproving the handling of my s3 rd sport that has the vvc engine in it.
I have only done two track days one of which was at anglesea in the dry where I had a lot of fun and my only gripe was that in the higher speed corners I had lots of understeer, once I had the nose into the corner it was a blast though and enjoyed being one of the faster cars on track.
For my second track day I was at oulton park, it was frosty first thing and we were not allowed on till gone 10.30am. all day was wet with a dry line appearing on a few corners towards the end of the day.
The car was a handful all day and I had no confidance in the car at all having 3 "offs" during the course of the day.
There was a track focused sigma there and the speed that he was carrying though the corners compaired to me was mind boggling.
I know he had wide track and adjustable suspension that is corner weighted and nice sticky tyres that I can't afford to do at the moment but I'm wondering how best to make use of my funds and what is the best route to take on making the car handle better (I was one of the slower cars on track this day) and am looking to make improvements in this area.
I am on 15" wheels with yoko a539 tyres.
Any help as to where best to spend my money appreciated, the car is prodominantly for road use.
Thanks
I have only done two track days one of which was at anglesea in the dry where I had a lot of fun and my only gripe was that in the higher speed corners I had lots of understeer, once I had the nose into the corner it was a blast though and enjoyed being one of the faster cars on track.
For my second track day I was at oulton park, it was frosty first thing and we were not allowed on till gone 10.30am. all day was wet with a dry line appearing on a few corners towards the end of the day.
The car was a handful all day and I had no confidance in the car at all having 3 "offs" during the course of the day.
There was a track focused sigma there and the speed that he was carrying though the corners compaired to me was mind boggling.
I know he had wide track and adjustable suspension that is corner weighted and nice sticky tyres that I can't afford to do at the moment but I'm wondering how best to make use of my funds and what is the best route to take on making the car handle better (I was one of the slower cars on track this day) and am looking to make improvements in this area.
I am on 15" wheels with yoko a539 tyres.
Any help as to where best to spend my money appreciated, the car is prodominantly for road use.
Thanks
Manchestergas said:
I am on 15" wheels with yoko a539 tyres.
I would start here - look for tyres that are more suited to a lightweight sports car. I'd be looking for CR500s for a good all-weather balance. I can't think of anything cheaper that would have such a significant impact.Edited by framerateuk on Friday 9th January 14:07
Nothing better than getting it properly set-up by someone who knows their way round a Caterham. If you don't have adjustable platforms it may be limited to what can be done but basic geo check, corner weight, rake, and ride height, anti-roll bars, etc., check should identify where the problem is. On track, 15 inch wheels are not ideal.
But, without wanting to be patronising, driving technique can also transform feel - things such as trailing the brakes to improve turn-in. An experienced track driver can adjust their technique to accommodate most set-ups.
But, without wanting to be patronising, driving technique can also transform feel - things such as trailing the brakes to improve turn-in. An experienced track driver can adjust their technique to accommodate most set-ups.
I'm a complete novice when it comes to track driving and don't know all the terminology but my pal who has experience of track driving described it as a coffin with wheels in the wet. I will try to post a vid up to show you my dilemmas and embarras my self with my driving technique in the process.
So the concensus is cr500's would be a drastic improvement over the yokos in wet conditions then?
Can any one recommend a company in the northwest or ideally manchester to set up what ever bits are adjustable on the car? All that said, mine was built by a man in a shed so I presume it's never had anything more than a tracking machine look at it if that. (Only had 1900 miles on it at purchase)
I read a thread about different size role bars some where, that are different colours ? Do they do different strength ones or are they adjustable?
Tyres first or getting it set up first do you think?
Thanks for input.
So the concensus is cr500's would be a drastic improvement over the yokos in wet conditions then?
Can any one recommend a company in the northwest or ideally manchester to set up what ever bits are adjustable on the car? All that said, mine was built by a man in a shed so I presume it's never had anything more than a tracking machine look at it if that. (Only had 1900 miles on it at purchase)
I read a thread about different size role bars some where, that are different colours ? Do they do different strength ones or are they adjustable?
Tyres first or getting it set up first do you think?
Thanks for input.
Tyres may well make a difference, but on a wet/cold track the light weight of a Caterham actually works against it.
The heavier cars will cut through the water and get some heat in their tyres, so often a Seven will be slow in those conditions.
The fact that the other Seven was faster than you could be tyres, set up, driver experience or any number of things.
One thing is for sure, in the wet a Seven has to be driven very smoothly, the more you try to over drive, the slower you will be.
I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I did put my Westfield into the barrier at Brands on my first track day 24 years ago, so I know how tricky a Seven can be on a wet circuit.
The heavier cars will cut through the water and get some heat in their tyres, so often a Seven will be slow in those conditions.
The fact that the other Seven was faster than you could be tyres, set up, driver experience or any number of things.
One thing is for sure, in the wet a Seven has to be driven very smoothly, the more you try to over drive, the slower you will be.
I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I did put my Westfield into the barrier at Brands on my first track day 24 years ago, so I know how tricky a Seven can be on a wet circuit.
As has been said, they'll always be hard to drive quickly in the wet.
I did a very wet trackday at Pembrey a couple of years ago (my first time there too), and when it was raining in the morning I was passed by absolutely everything, when the line dried off in the afternoon it was a different story. When I visited on a hot day last year I was only getting passed on the straights where cars with more power (and better aerodynamics!) had the grunt to get past.
I find the CR500s very good in the wet though, both on the road and on the track. I have them in both 15" and 13" and they've been great. I've only done one trackday on the 13s but I felt like I was going faster. The 15s feel harder to predict on the limit, where the 13s seem to be more communicative when the grip is on the limit.
I did a very wet trackday at Pembrey a couple of years ago (my first time there too), and when it was raining in the morning I was passed by absolutely everything, when the line dried off in the afternoon it was a different story. When I visited on a hot day last year I was only getting passed on the straights where cars with more power (and better aerodynamics!) had the grunt to get past.
I find the CR500s very good in the wet though, both on the road and on the track. I have them in both 15" and 13" and they've been great. I've only done one trackday on the 13s but I felt like I was going faster. The 15s feel harder to predict on the limit, where the 13s seem to be more communicative when the grip is on the limit.
I bought a spare set of wheels and used to use Formula Renault full wets. Used to buy them off the race teams when they were worn down, by the time I got them, they would be more like inters, but still have tread. Amazing in the wet, I could lap nearly as fast with these as I could with slicks on. Made wet track days a joy, in the wet, lots of track time, as most don't like driving in the rain. Tyres were only £50 each, but you do need wheels and a way to get them to the track.
Had a Supersport R, with full SL road cage, which stiffened the body up nicely. My advice, get the car setup correctly, get some driver training. Adjustable suspension is good, so you can adjust for dry and wet. If you do go for sticky tyres, you might want to dry sump the engine as well.
Had a Supersport R, with full SL road cage, which stiffened the body up nicely. My advice, get the car setup correctly, get some driver training. Adjustable suspension is good, so you can adjust for dry and wet. If you do go for sticky tyres, you might want to dry sump the engine as well.
Sorry to nip a queation in here, but on setup, where is the rear ride height measured from?
My 7 has recently had an LSD fitted, new springs all round and new bushes. The rear end feels quite live upon a hard corner. No slip, but not as planted. A few things have been altered, granted. I don't think it's the LSD as i'd assume this to feel different when the back end goes, not before (?). If the rear ride height was an inch too high, would this have a detrimental effect upon the rear end?
The rear has progressive (2 stage) rear springs.
Probably quite vague, but first imoressions?
My 7 has recently had an LSD fitted, new springs all round and new bushes. The rear end feels quite live upon a hard corner. No slip, but not as planted. A few things have been altered, granted. I don't think it's the LSD as i'd assume this to feel different when the back end goes, not before (?). If the rear ride height was an inch too high, would this have a detrimental effect upon the rear end?
The rear has progressive (2 stage) rear springs.
Probably quite vague, but first imoressions?
In regards to tyres.I have 185/60/13 up front and 205/60/13 at the rear. I used to run Yoko 48's, then Toyo 888's and now yoko 21's as an all year round tyre. The first two are dry weather tyres which are very grippy. The 21 is a wet motorsport tyre. Upon a dey Goodwood track day, I could feel it's limits in the corner when pushing, but it still held nice enough to carry a good speed through corners.
Tyre a nice sticky tyre. People often nearly give away their no longer road legal tyres which would still be fine for a track day. Maybe a cheap option to try.
Tyre a nice sticky tyre. People often nearly give away their no longer road legal tyres which would still be fine for a track day. Maybe a cheap option to try.
Gingerbread Man said:
Sorry to nip a queation in here, but on setup, where is the rear ride height measured from?
My 7 has recently had an LSD fitted, new springs all round and new bushes. The rear end feels quite live upon a hard corner. No slip, but not as planted. A few things have been altered, granted. I don't think it's the LSD as i'd assume this to feel different when the back end goes, not before (?). If the rear ride height was an inch too high, would this have a detrimental effect upon the rear end?
The rear has progressive (2 stage) rear springs.
Probably quite vague, but first imoressions?
If the rear is too high then the car will be more "tail happy" as more of the weight is over the front as opposed to the back, if the front is too high then there's more weight over the back which will have the opposite effect causing understeer.My 7 has recently had an LSD fitted, new springs all round and new bushes. The rear end feels quite live upon a hard corner. No slip, but not as planted. A few things have been altered, granted. I don't think it's the LSD as i'd assume this to feel different when the back end goes, not before (?). If the rear ride height was an inch too high, would this have a detrimental effect upon the rear end?
The rear has progressive (2 stage) rear springs.
Probably quite vague, but first imoressions?
Caterham jack up the suspension of their drift experience cars so they're easier to throw around (they also fit sticky tyres up front and harder ones on the back!). You're probably experiencing this to some degree!
An inch is quite a large adjustment, I think you'd definitely notice the difference.
I think that's a bit simplistic. Best way to understand it is to think of the car as two halves - the rear, and the front. Both want to roll different amounts, but they can't as they are connected by the (stiff) chassis. So the half that is set up to roll more will do less work.
Raising the rear will raise the C of G at the rear and increase the rear roll moment. The the front will then do more work in an attempt to prevent the extra roll. In practice it loads the outer front wheel more when cornering.
Raising the rear will raise the C of G at the rear and increase the rear roll moment. The the front will then do more work in an attempt to prevent the extra roll. In practice it loads the outer front wheel more when cornering.
Edited by DCL on Saturday 10th January 20:10
Practically I would go for better tyres (AO21s or CR500s - both of which are being phased out btw due to EU regs coming in) first, and then get the car set up.
Don't underestimate the value of driver training in the meantime though (with someone who knows sevens). Always worth taking the driver tuition offered at some trackdays, eg L7Club or [url=http://www.bhptrackdays.co.uk]BHP Trackdays{/url] (both free tuition I think).
Don't underestimate the value of driver training in the meantime though (with someone who knows sevens). Always worth taking the driver tuition offered at some trackdays, eg L7Club or [url=http://www.bhptrackdays.co.uk]BHP Trackdays{/url] (both free tuition I think).
I'm going to take a slightly different standpoint given what you've said.
I built my car and after about 1000 miles I decided I'd check the geometry out as it didn't feel as good as I would have expected. The car went through its post build check at Carerham though so I figured it must just have been a 'safe' setup that they'd opted for at the factory and that the under steer could be the result of that.
So I went down to my local Kwick fit one Sunday and put it on their Hunter Laser alignment machine. Imagine my surprise when I found the front geometry was all over the place. The difference in camber between the left and right of the car was 1.5 degrees and the tracking was out both sides as well.
I spent 3 hours down there having a go at reconfiguring it with their guys using some measurements I'd got off the forums and taken down there with me.
The difference afterwards was a bit of a shock. The car actually turns into a corner properly now! I'd still like to get it fully setup by a professional outfit at some point but for now it's made it a much better drive.
Could it be yours is suffering the same? It certainly looks like setting up the geometry at Caterham is not something they are doing as part of their post build checks so it's quite possible yours is way out too?
The tyres will defo help but it's only going to cost you £60 to have the current geometry settings printed out for you so why not go get it done and see what the numbers are telling you?
Tom
I built my car and after about 1000 miles I decided I'd check the geometry out as it didn't feel as good as I would have expected. The car went through its post build check at Carerham though so I figured it must just have been a 'safe' setup that they'd opted for at the factory and that the under steer could be the result of that.
So I went down to my local Kwick fit one Sunday and put it on their Hunter Laser alignment machine. Imagine my surprise when I found the front geometry was all over the place. The difference in camber between the left and right of the car was 1.5 degrees and the tracking was out both sides as well.
I spent 3 hours down there having a go at reconfiguring it with their guys using some measurements I'd got off the forums and taken down there with me.
The difference afterwards was a bit of a shock. The car actually turns into a corner properly now! I'd still like to get it fully setup by a professional outfit at some point but for now it's made it a much better drive.
Could it be yours is suffering the same? It certainly looks like setting up the geometry at Caterham is not something they are doing as part of their post build checks so it's quite possible yours is way out too?
The tyres will defo help but it's only going to cost you £60 to have the current geometry settings printed out for you so why not go get it done and see what the numbers are telling you?
Tom
framerateuk said:
As has been said, they'll always be hard to drive quickly in the wet.
Caterhams are brilliant in the wet - as long as they are setup.Closest to you who know what they are doing is Bookatrack based at Donington Circuit. You could speak to Jonny there and see if it something they will do, from memory a full setups & corner weighting cost in the region of 3-400 notes.
i have some vids of my R300 in the wet somewhere in the video thread.
roll bar wise I will be running what ever got sent out in a 2006 rd sport kit for home build.
I'm Not sure what the current pressure of the tyres is but if you can recommend pressures next time its out I will check as my foot pump is only registering 10psi which can't be right. Will check at garage when I'm next out in it.
I'm Not sure what the current pressure of the tyres is but if you can recommend pressures next time its out I will check as my foot pump is only registering 10psi which can't be right. Will check at garage when I'm next out in it.
Gassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff