basic starter kit?
Discussion
Hello folks.
Am visiting Caterham next month with a view to placing my order. (have a number of Seven-esque builds under my belt already, now finally splashing out on the big name).
Before I speak to them I'd just like to get a few facts straight in my head before I get bamboozled.
Given the mark-up on many of the parts from Caterham, I'd ideally like to source all the generic parts myself (wheels, tyres, plumbing, wiring loom, gauges, seat belts, lighting, OEM consumables/components, etc.) as well as donor running gear and only get the essential/specially-engineered components from Caterham. Similar to a basic starter kit from Westfield (albeit a hell of a lot more than £3k).
They obviously don't advertise such a package and I would imagine are going to be hesitant about losing so much quality control on a car with a Caterham badge, but was wondering if it was possible to negotiate one once I'd sitting in front of them - anyone had any luck with this?
My ideal build would end up on a Q as I'd like to use some components I already have: low milage 1.8 K-series from the family Freelander (to be fettled and appropriately tuned by Dave @DVA Power), an XR4i gearbox (going to BGH) I have in storage and a 2.0 XR4x4 (7" 3.9 LSD) diff. I realise that many of these parts are features of older Sevens.
Really from Caterham I'd like a chassis, body, interior, wishbones/de dion tube, etc etc - almost an order from their parts department.
I have the experience to do the build justice but could Caterham play ball or do I have to bite the bullet and order a new 270 inc 1.6 Sigma?
Am visiting Caterham next month with a view to placing my order. (have a number of Seven-esque builds under my belt already, now finally splashing out on the big name).
Before I speak to them I'd just like to get a few facts straight in my head before I get bamboozled.
Given the mark-up on many of the parts from Caterham, I'd ideally like to source all the generic parts myself (wheels, tyres, plumbing, wiring loom, gauges, seat belts, lighting, OEM consumables/components, etc.) as well as donor running gear and only get the essential/specially-engineered components from Caterham. Similar to a basic starter kit from Westfield (albeit a hell of a lot more than £3k).
They obviously don't advertise such a package and I would imagine are going to be hesitant about losing so much quality control on a car with a Caterham badge, but was wondering if it was possible to negotiate one once I'd sitting in front of them - anyone had any luck with this?
My ideal build would end up on a Q as I'd like to use some components I already have: low milage 1.8 K-series from the family Freelander (to be fettled and appropriately tuned by Dave @DVA Power), an XR4i gearbox (going to BGH) I have in storage and a 2.0 XR4x4 (7" 3.9 LSD) diff. I realise that many of these parts are features of older Sevens.
Really from Caterham I'd like a chassis, body, interior, wishbones/de dion tube, etc etc - almost an order from their parts department.
I have the experience to do the build justice but could Caterham play ball or do I have to bite the bullet and order a new 270 inc 1.6 Sigma?
Edited by Gasket999 on Saturday 30th May 12:56
I'm happy to be corrected, but I don't believe they'll supply you with just a chassis anymore.
A few years ago you could get the basic starter kit, but where as with most kit cars you have to supply your own donor vehicle/parts- a Caterham is more a "component car" where every part is supplied for you.
To be honest, that's part of the appeal and why used prices are so high - because you know the source of all the parts and that they were new when it was built.
EDIT:
Keep in mind too you'd need to make significant changes if you wanted to put a k-series in a new Sigma engined car (the exhaust is on the wrong side for one thing). If that's your project aim they you're probably best off going for a Westfield, Dax or GBS, as if you've changed the parts your suggesting, then it's not really a Caterham anymore, and you'll massively hit any re-sale value.
A few years ago you could get the basic starter kit, but where as with most kit cars you have to supply your own donor vehicle/parts- a Caterham is more a "component car" where every part is supplied for you.
To be honest, that's part of the appeal and why used prices are so high - because you know the source of all the parts and that they were new when it was built.
EDIT:
Keep in mind too you'd need to make significant changes if you wanted to put a k-series in a new Sigma engined car (the exhaust is on the wrong side for one thing). If that's your project aim they you're probably best off going for a Westfield, Dax or GBS, as if you've changed the parts your suggesting, then it's not really a Caterham anymore, and you'll massively hit any re-sale value.
Edited by framerateuk on Saturday 30th May 13:58
Before I built my Caterham I had built five other kit cars, so I know where you are coming from.
But the Caterham is very different. My advice would be 'don't do it'. Firstly, whatever you might think, the full kits are good value for money. You will struggle to match them like for like for the same cost as a full kit. This is not a kit car in the traditional sense and most parts are bespoke or heavily modified parts that can be sourced elsewhere, but not necessarily any cheaper.
Secondly, if you want your Caterham to hold its own in terms of market value, nothing beats a 'registered as new' V5. If cash is an issue then go for the cheapest spec, but if you haven't got the budget for that then don't do it, or it will end in tears and a significant hole in your pocket.
But the Caterham is very different. My advice would be 'don't do it'. Firstly, whatever you might think, the full kits are good value for money. You will struggle to match them like for like for the same cost as a full kit. This is not a kit car in the traditional sense and most parts are bespoke or heavily modified parts that can be sourced elsewhere, but not necessarily any cheaper.
Secondly, if you want your Caterham to hold its own in terms of market value, nothing beats a 'registered as new' V5. If cash is an issue then go for the cheapest spec, but if you haven't got the budget for that then don't do it, or it will end in tears and a significant hole in your pocket.
Thanks gents.
The budget is there, so no issues on that score - just loathed to part with it. I appreciate the Caterham is a performance car available in CKD form rather than a true-kit.
I'd never start to modify an existing chassis, it would kill the resale. But I'm sure that they (or Arch Motors) could supply an older spec chassis if they were willing to do so.
I have an old Caterham build manual and in it it gives recommended donor components, they say something like "in order to maximise resale value and to build to a tried and tested formula use these parts".
Thats the feel I'd go for - we agree on which components I'll be using (to a tested Caterham recipe), but I source them.
Oh well, look like its a non-starter - I'll still ask the question when I'm there but thought there could have been some sort of secret handshake situation ha ha.
The budget is there, so no issues on that score - just loathed to part with it. I appreciate the Caterham is a performance car available in CKD form rather than a true-kit.
I'd never start to modify an existing chassis, it would kill the resale. But I'm sure that they (or Arch Motors) could supply an older spec chassis if they were willing to do so.
I have an old Caterham build manual and in it it gives recommended donor components, they say something like "in order to maximise resale value and to build to a tried and tested formula use these parts".
Thats the feel I'd go for - we agree on which components I'll be using (to a tested Caterham recipe), but I source them.
Oh well, look like its a non-starter - I'll still ask the question when I'm there but thought there could have been some sort of secret handshake situation ha ha.
Thing is, at the moment there's a 6 month plus wait for any standard kit. Why would they want to make a retrograde step, in most eyes, to supply a base chassis plus some other parts to you?
Unfortunately I think Caterham are a step or two past the Westfield and the like philosophy these days. To be honest I reckon they'd actually prefer to supply only finished cars.
Unfortunately I think Caterham are a step or two past the Westfield and the like philosophy these days. To be honest I reckon they'd actually prefer to supply only finished cars.
I know where you're coming from. A very significant number of Caterham spares can be bought for about a third to half of what CC charge once you know what the donor part is.
Trouble is CC have moved away from the old kit car approach and are only interested in selling complete kits for assembly or turn-key cars. An alternate approach might be to find a complete dog/track hound and build it back up to your spec but even those don't come up at the right money very often.
Trouble is CC have moved away from the old kit car approach and are only interested in selling complete kits for assembly or turn-key cars. An alternate approach might be to find a complete dog/track hound and build it back up to your spec but even those don't come up at the right money very often.
Hi I understand the thoughts. BUT it just doesn't add up if as you have mentioned you take end value into consideration you will be much more out of pocket than if you had paid full value to Caterham for new parts.
Your first and major issue is Q plate (which doesn't actually exisit anymore). IMHO it will take a min of 30% of the end value.
Forget the new car idea. Your going to be better off fining a low powered tatty car that is ripe for rebuild.
Its still not going to add up value wise IMHO but it will be lots lots closer with no IVA issues.
Your first and major issue is Q plate (which doesn't actually exisit anymore). IMHO it will take a min of 30% of the end value.
Forget the new car idea. Your going to be better off fining a low powered tatty car that is ripe for rebuild.
Its still not going to add up value wise IMHO but it will be lots lots closer with no IVA issues.
I bought a starter kit off them about 7 years ago, as I wanted to do just as you say. They had just started selling the Metric chassis, but I wanted an Arch built SV LHD imperial chassis, with spare wheel mount, and full weather gear, as at the time the Arch chassis was much nicer quality (i.e. no powder coated over weld spatter) I got one no problem, (at a premium, in true Caterham style!) I even specified which side I wanted the wiring harness run, and asked them not to cut out for the exhaust. No problems there either.
I bought suspension components at a later date. Here's what I had delivered from CC.
I'd be surprised if you still couldn't do this. But be warned, getting all the correct parts is a total f
king nightmare, and I'd never do it again! I had wrong parts sent to me up to three times in a row, on many many occasion's. They sent more out without quibble, but it was extremely frustrating!
If I knew what I know now, I would do as Simon suggests above, and buy an old car and do a total refurb.
I bought suspension components at a later date. Here's what I had delivered from CC.
I'd be surprised if you still couldn't do this. But be warned, getting all the correct parts is a total f
king nightmare, and I'd never do it again! I had wrong parts sent to me up to three times in a row, on many many occasion's. They sent more out without quibble, but it was extremely frustrating!If I knew what I know now, I would do as Simon suggests above, and buy an old car and do a total refurb.
I would second the 'restore an old one' method Simon suggests - redoing my Dad's old car at the moment and once you've had Arch go through the chassis and re-skin it then it's like doing a new one but without the IVA paperwork. And you can build it to your own spec and get Arch to upgrade the chassis if you want. Plus older cars can fetch good money on the continent. Get a De Dion car rather than live axle though...
Caterham do still offer the starter kit route. I was speaking to Dominic about it in the autumn of last year. You buy the kit in packs.. chassis pack, engine pack, suspension pack, interior pack etc. This allows you to buy the packs you want and build the car in a modular way at your own pace. There is a markup on the packs though, meaning the full kit is significantly more expensive when bought in this way.
What everyone has said here is correct though. Your plan doesn't make sense financially. You won't be able to source all the parts separately for less than the kit price. Unless you use second hand bits and stuff you've bodged together yourself. The resale value will take a massive hit also.
edit - by the way, when I say "bodged together" thats not a personal dig. I'm sure you'd do a first class job based on your car building experience, but you know what I mean.
A well spec'd and looked after caterham won't loose much money (if any at all). Thats the way to make financial sense of a caterham. Just take a look at used car prices and work out how little they've depreciated since new. Your plan to shell out for the most expensive 7 kit car and then build it in a way that doesn't take advantage of their rock solid residuals is only going to loose you money in the long run.
What everyone has said here is correct though. Your plan doesn't make sense financially. You won't be able to source all the parts separately for less than the kit price. Unless you use second hand bits and stuff you've bodged together yourself. The resale value will take a massive hit also.
edit - by the way, when I say "bodged together" thats not a personal dig. I'm sure you'd do a first class job based on your car building experience, but you know what I mean.
A well spec'd and looked after caterham won't loose much money (if any at all). Thats the way to make financial sense of a caterham. Just take a look at used car prices and work out how little they've depreciated since new. Your plan to shell out for the most expensive 7 kit car and then build it in a way that doesn't take advantage of their rock solid residuals is only going to loose you money in the long run.
Edited by mharris on Tuesday 2nd June 14:50
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