Compact System Camera's
Discussion
I'm thinking of upgrading from simple point and shoot camera's as I am often frustrated by their limitations, both in terms of picture quality and the lack of control. I'd also like to learn a bit more about photography too so I've decided I want to invest in some better gear.
The obvious answer used to be to get an SLR BUT I'm not sure if I'm ready to go the whole hog, plus the thought of carrying a huge beast of a camera+lenses+other kit around almost guarantees that I'll get bored with it after a while and it will sit their gathering dust.
What has got my interest though is the relatively newer compact system\mirrorless call them what you will camera's. They seem to offer a lot of the advantages of an SLR such as bigger sensor size, ability to change lenses, more control\settings but in a handier to carry compact body. However having checked several pages on this forum, there is very little if any discussion about this new camera format, why is that?
Are they just not as good as a full on SLR or are they looked down of for various other reasons?
So what are people's thoughts on them, have people used them with any great success and what new camera's would people recommend in this segment? I've done a bit of reading\research already but am by no means an expert.
The obvious answer used to be to get an SLR BUT I'm not sure if I'm ready to go the whole hog, plus the thought of carrying a huge beast of a camera+lenses+other kit around almost guarantees that I'll get bored with it after a while and it will sit their gathering dust.
What has got my interest though is the relatively newer compact system\mirrorless call them what you will camera's. They seem to offer a lot of the advantages of an SLR such as bigger sensor size, ability to change lenses, more control\settings but in a handier to carry compact body. However having checked several pages on this forum, there is very little if any discussion about this new camera format, why is that?
Are they just not as good as a full on SLR or are they looked down of for various other reasons?
So what are people's thoughts on them, have people used them with any great success and what new camera's would people recommend in this segment? I've done a bit of reading\research already but am by no means an expert.
Guvernator said:
However having checked several pages on this forum, there is very little if any discussion about this new camera format, why is that?
Are they just not as good as a full on SLR or are they looked down of for various other reasons?
i've seen plenty of talk about them in other places. Certainly I started a thread on the Nikons when they first came out. A lot of professionals have used them for various jobs. The first I saw was a chap that rigged up half a dozen in a huge warehouse to record a substantial time-lapse project he'd been commissioned to do. Fabulous results.Are they just not as good as a full on SLR or are they looked down of for various other reasons?
A lot of people, but not all, on this forum are in the "enthusiast" category so an investment tends to be for a good few years - personally, although not exactly "locked in", it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to go to this area. Plus, I don't have huge desire to go to anything so light. Build quality is also a bit of an unknown, but viewfinder, sensor size, handling, lack of phase detect AF, and including ease of accessing settings have kept me away from them.
My "other camera" is a compact (a Nikon P7000) which just isn't as rewarding to use as a dSLR, and is slow to react and fiddly to set in comparison. I have some prejudice in believing the interchangeable compacts will also be slow!
My "other, other camera" is on my iPhone - and even that gets used more than my compact - so I guess those "mid-sized" have a little way to go in my book before they are a viable SLR alternative.
Others' mileage may vary....
It certainly appears that the first gen camera's in this category had their fair issues but it seems from what I've been reading that the latest 3rd gen camera's seem to have addressed many of these including most of the one's you've mentioned.
It just seems that the only thing holding them back at the moment is a slightly snobbish attitude by many who are in the "hardcore SLR" camp although this might just be me mis-reading the situation but a lot of the camera forums seem to give that impression.
I've read quite a few articles which state that mirror-less is the future and will eventually mean the death of the traditional SLR, not sure how much of that is sensationalist journalism though.
All I know is they seem to be the perfect compromise for someone wanting to step up from a standard point and shoot to something a bit more serious so just wondering why they don't seem to be that popular. The new Sony Nex 6\7's seem to be getting some fantastic reviews as are some of the Panasonic range. It's a pity my local Jessop's is now closed. Wouldn't have minded going to have a look at a few.
It just seems that the only thing holding them back at the moment is a slightly snobbish attitude by many who are in the "hardcore SLR" camp although this might just be me mis-reading the situation but a lot of the camera forums seem to give that impression.
I've read quite a few articles which state that mirror-less is the future and will eventually mean the death of the traditional SLR, not sure how much of that is sensationalist journalism though.
All I know is they seem to be the perfect compromise for someone wanting to step up from a standard point and shoot to something a bit more serious so just wondering why they don't seem to be that popular. The new Sony Nex 6\7's seem to be getting some fantastic reviews as are some of the Panasonic range. It's a pity my local Jessop's is now closed. Wouldn't have minded going to have a look at a few.
My personal experience with them...
I have a Sony DSLR with a nice f2.8 24-70 zoom, the vertical grip, the top Sony flashgun and wireless triggers. It's very nice as was the Canon 1D MKII I had with the 70-200 2.8 IS L glass & the TS/E lens. I used the Sony 3 times last year.
1 week ago I brought a Fuji X-E1 with the 35mm lens, I've used it everyday except for one since I brought it.
I'll not get drawn in to a discussion about IQ, noise, high ISO capability & the rest of the cr@p that inevitably gets bandied around in these sorts of threads all I say is the camera form factor means I take pictures & I take it with me whenever I've go out.
I have a Sony DSLR with a nice f2.8 24-70 zoom, the vertical grip, the top Sony flashgun and wireless triggers. It's very nice as was the Canon 1D MKII I had with the 70-200 2.8 IS L glass & the TS/E lens. I used the Sony 3 times last year.
1 week ago I brought a Fuji X-E1 with the 35mm lens, I've used it everyday except for one since I brought it.
I'll not get drawn in to a discussion about IQ, noise, high ISO capability & the rest of the cr@p that inevitably gets bandied around in these sorts of threads all I say is the camera form factor means I take pictures & I take it with me whenever I've go out.
GnuBee said:
My personal experience with them...
I have a Sony DSLR with a nice f2.8 24-70 zoom, the vertical grip, the top Sony flashgun and wireless triggers. It's very nice as was the Canon 1D MKII I had with the 70-200 2.8 IS L glass & the TS/E lens. I used the Sony 3 times last year.
1 week ago I brought a Fuji X-E1 with the 35mm lens, I've used it everyday except for one since I brought it.
I'll not get drawn in to a discussion about IQ, noise, high ISO capability & the rest of the cr@p that inevitably gets bandied around in these sorts of threads all I say is the camera form factor means I take pictures & I take it with me whenever I've go out.
This is my exact thought process, I'm not a professional photographer so can live with a bit of degradation in image quality if it means I actually use the camera rather than it sat gathering dust. They seem to be a decent enough compromise in size vs functionality so that it can replace the point and shoot as an every day camera while still being good enough for me when I feel like dabbling in photography proper.I have a Sony DSLR with a nice f2.8 24-70 zoom, the vertical grip, the top Sony flashgun and wireless triggers. It's very nice as was the Canon 1D MKII I had with the 70-200 2.8 IS L glass & the TS/E lens. I used the Sony 3 times last year.
1 week ago I brought a Fuji X-E1 with the 35mm lens, I've used it everyday except for one since I brought it.
I'll not get drawn in to a discussion about IQ, noise, high ISO capability & the rest of the cr@p that inevitably gets bandied around in these sorts of threads all I say is the camera form factor means I take pictures & I take it with me whenever I've go out.
How do you find the Fuji? It's one of options I'm looking at although it's one of the more expensive options in the CSC market.
Guvernator said:
How do you find the Fuji? It's one of options I'm looking at although it's one of the more expensive options in the CSC market.
It seems to be great, as I said the main thing is that it's meant I've taken pictures again. I didn't really do any great amount of research on other systems so I can't claim it's better than X or worse than Y.I'd advise staying away from the DPReview forum though - some very odd people lurk there and the level of misinformation and half reasoned opinion being offered as fact could put you off.
There's some information about it on Zack Arias's site (www.zackarias.com), he uses the XPro1 but the X-E1 is the same without the OVF and some more information on www.luminous-landscape.com.
I think they look pretty good but I don't really see any size advantage over a dslr. A canon S100 will fit in a trouser or jacket pocket, the mirrorless cameras won't and if you want to have a couple of lens with you then you need a bag, if you are carry about a camera bag you might as well put a dslr in there? I bought a blackrapid strap for my 450D and I've taken the camera out with me a lot more since getting that.
Edited by cjm on Tuesday 15th January 15:39
GnuBee said:
It seems to be great, as I said the main thing is that it's meant I've taken pictures again. I didn't really do any great amount of research on other systems so I can't claim it's better than X or worse than Y.
I'd advise staying away from the DPReview forum though - some very odd people lurk there and the level of misinformation and half reasoned opinion being offered as fact could put you off.
There's some information about it on Zack Arias's site (www.zackarias.com), he uses the XPro1 but the X-E1 is the same without the OVF and some more information on www.luminous-landscape.com.
Yep, dpreview is one of the sites I've looked at and they are somewhat odd (even odder than here I'd advise staying away from the DPReview forum though - some very odd people lurk there and the level of misinformation and half reasoned opinion being offered as fact could put you off.
There's some information about it on Zack Arias's site (www.zackarias.com), he uses the XPro1 but the X-E1 is the same without the OVF and some more information on www.luminous-landscape.com.
) and they definitely seem to fall into several different camps. The SLR snobs who think the CSC camera's are sh*t because they can't take a picture at a 160000 ISO setting and those who have just bought a CSC and think they are the best thing since sliced bread, oh you've also got all the Canon\Nikon\Fuji fanboys giving us "unbiased opinion which is why I decided to post on PH as I thought I might get slightly more sensible responses. I want to go and have a play with a few, looks like I might need to make a trip down to Tottenham Court Rd at some point as that might be the nearest place I can actually get my hands on them.
I'm getting closer and closer to ditching the DSLR in favour of a CSC. I'm a big fan of the Olympus OMD and even though the sensor is smaller than some, there doesn't seem to be an IQ trade off and there is a huge range of M4/3 lenses.
The one thing that is stopping me though is the auto focus. I think it's fair to say that this is the downside of all Mirror-less cameras. Basically fast moving objects are the big problem and some suffer a bit in low light as well. Most DSLR's have this stuff nailed without seemingly having to try very hard. I have a Fuji X100 (sort of a CSC but fixed lens) as well a DSLR and I'd honestly be tempted to ditch the DSLR if it wasn't for this one issue. I have a toddler and unless she's asleep, getting a sharp picture of her indoors with the fuji is a a game of pot luck. I also like to shoot the odd motorsport event and again the Fuji (and I guess most/all CSC's) just wouldn't cut it. For nearly everything else I think they're near perfect but I'm sill in the camp of 'watch this space' to see how far the AF systems can be improved before I make a committed jump.
The one thing that is stopping me though is the auto focus. I think it's fair to say that this is the downside of all Mirror-less cameras. Basically fast moving objects are the big problem and some suffer a bit in low light as well. Most DSLR's have this stuff nailed without seemingly having to try very hard. I have a Fuji X100 (sort of a CSC but fixed lens) as well a DSLR and I'd honestly be tempted to ditch the DSLR if it wasn't for this one issue. I have a toddler and unless she's asleep, getting a sharp picture of her indoors with the fuji is a a game of pot luck. I also like to shoot the odd motorsport event and again the Fuji (and I guess most/all CSC's) just wouldn't cut it. For nearly everything else I think they're near perfect but I'm sill in the camp of 'watch this space' to see how far the AF systems can be improved before I make a committed jump.
cjm said:
I think they look pretty good but I don't really see any size advantage over a dslr. A canon S100 will fit in a trouser or jacket pocket, the mirrorless cameras won't and if you want to have a couple of lens with you then you need a bag, if you are carry about a camera bag you might as well put a dslr in there? I bought a blackrapid strap for my 450D and I've taken the camera out with me a lot more since getting that.
There's a big size difference to be fair. The Fuji weighs about 400g IIRC, my Sony is considerably more (e.g. ki0los rather than grams). The Fuji is is considerably smaller in every dimension to the Sony.Edited by cjm on Tuesday 15th January 15:39
But that aside I wanted to get away from the whole photographers luggage thing and also simplify so no bag, no additional lenses. I can see why some may not want that and for them the decision between CSCs and DSLRS may not be so clear cut.
Gad-Westy said:
I'm getting closer and closer to ditching the DSLR in favour of a CSC. I'm a big fan of the Olympus OMD and even though the sensor is smaller than some, there doesn't seem to be an IQ trade off and there is a huge range of M4/3 lenses.
The one thing that is stopping me though is the auto focus. I think it's fair to say that this is the downside of all Mirror-less cameras. Basically fast moving objects are the big problem and some suffer a bit in low light as well. Most DSLR's have this stuff nailed without seemingly having to try very hard. I have a Fuji X100 (sort of a CSC but fixed lens) as well a DSLR and I'd honestly be tempted to ditch the DSLR if it wasn't for this one issue. I have a toddler and unless she's asleep, getting a sharp picture of her indoors with the fuji is a a game of pot luck. I also like to shoot the odd motorsport event and again the Fuji (and I guess most/all CSC's) just wouldn't cut it. For nearly everything else I think they're near perfect but I'm sill in the camp of 'watch this space' to see how far the AF systems can be improved before I make a committed jump.
I believe the recently announced X100s & X20s have considerably better AF. Apparently the Nikon N1 V2 is the current gold standard for AF on CSCs.The one thing that is stopping me though is the auto focus. I think it's fair to say that this is the downside of all Mirror-less cameras. Basically fast moving objects are the big problem and some suffer a bit in low light as well. Most DSLR's have this stuff nailed without seemingly having to try very hard. I have a Fuji X100 (sort of a CSC but fixed lens) as well a DSLR and I'd honestly be tempted to ditch the DSLR if it wasn't for this one issue. I have a toddler and unless she's asleep, getting a sharp picture of her indoors with the fuji is a a game of pot luck. I also like to shoot the odd motorsport event and again the Fuji (and I guess most/all CSC's) just wouldn't cut it. For nearly everything else I think they're near perfect but I'm sill in the camp of 'watch this space' to see how far the AF systems can be improved before I make a committed jump.
I'm not sure how the X-E1/XPro compare to the X100 now - there's been a couple of firmware updates which have specifically targeted and improved the AF on them.
I think the latest breed of CSC's are excellent, and have largely remedied that faults of the earlier versions, AF speed, decent EVF (I just can't shoot without one!) and image quality. As much as I love my DSLR - I moved to FF a few months back (7D --> 5D MK3) and there are times when I wouldn't be without, but it's actually very liberating to have something much more discreet to shoot with, so you can catch more candid shots and not have everyone tag you as the "photographer". A Nex 6 with power zoom or excllent (and fast) pancake will fit in a jacket pocket and has a sensor on a par with the 7D.
StuH said:
IA Nex 6 with power zoom or excllent (and fast) pancake will fit in a jacket pocket and has a sensor on a par with the 7D.
...and also a completely s
tty autofocus which made it unusable for me and a battery that loses 3% every time you even touch the camera. Plus a 650D with a 40mm 2.8 pancake lens will be cheaper, easier to use, have better viewfinder, million times better battery life and auto focus while not being much bigger or heavier than a Nex 6. And I speak from experience - I bought a Nex 6 and three lenses including 24mm Zeiss just to find out that the AF is just pants. I bought a Canon G15 after that and it's MILES better.P.S. OP - what's with the " 's" in cameras? Your grammar seems very good with everything else.
Edited by rottie102 on Tuesday 15th January 21:02
rottie102 said:
...and also a completely stty autofocus which made it unusable for me and a battery that loses 3% every time you even touch the camera. Plus a 650D with a 40mm 2.8 pancake lens will be cheaper, easier to use, have better viewfinder, million times better battery life and auto focus while not being much bigger or heavier than a Nex 6. And I speak from experience - I bought a Nex 6 and three lenses including 24mm Zeiss just to find out that the AF is just pants. I bought a Canon G15 after that and it's MILES better.
P.S. OP - what's with the " 's" in cameras? Your grammar seems very good with everything else.
I think you must have had a duff Nex6. No such problems here. Battery life has been fine (just disable the pointless wifi features). tty autofocus which made it unusable for me and a battery that loses 3% every time you even touch the camera. Plus a 650D with a 40mm 2.8 pancake lens will be cheaper, easier to use, have better viewfinder, million times better battery life and auto focus while not being much bigger or heavier than a Nex 6. And I speak from experience - I bought a Nex 6 and three lenses including 24mm Zeiss just to find out that the AF is just pants. I bought a Canon G15 after that and it's MILES better.P.S. OP - what's with the " 's" in cameras? Your grammar seems very good with everything else.
Edited by rottie102 on Tuesday 15th January 21:02
The OP made it pretty clear he DOESN'T want the bulk and weight of a DSLR, so rather than just ranting why not make your post relevant to the question asked. a 650D even with the new 40mm is still way heavier and bulkier than a Nex6. A nex6 fits in a jacket pocket, a 650D doesn't. I also considered an EOS M (more relevant than a 650D comparison) but it just didn't balance well in the hand with the lenses I tried. A G15 isn't going to get near the Nex PQ and doesn't have the flexibility.
OK, I don't do telephoto (never have) and don't normally require AF speed, but I have gone lightweight (and very pleased that I have)
Fuji X100 445g
Fuji WCL-X100 wide angle 150g
Fuji Hood and Filter Holder plus Hoya ND8, ND400 filters 105g including protective cases
Giotto's GTMT8223-50 Tripod 1100kg
3 spare batteries 106g
Total 1.906kg including the Tripod!!!!
Haven't taken my Canon 40D out of the house since getting the Fuji. My next camera will almost certainly be a Fuji CSC, morelikely when the 14mm lens is at a decent price, or the 10-24 is out. However I may just just an X100s when available, and keep the WCL on the existing X100. Hell it will only add another 445g!!!!
Fuji X100 445g
Fuji WCL-X100 wide angle 150g
Fuji Hood and Filter Holder plus Hoya ND8, ND400 filters 105g including protective cases
Giotto's GTMT8223-50 Tripod 1100kg
3 spare batteries 106g
Total 1.906kg including the Tripod!!!!
Haven't taken my Canon 40D out of the house since getting the Fuji. My next camera will almost certainly be a Fuji CSC, morelikely when the 14mm lens is at a decent price, or the 10-24 is out. However I may just just an X100s when available, and keep the WCL on the existing X100. Hell it will only add another 445g!!!!
Yep main priorities are that it's light and small first and foremost as I still want to use it as my normal day-to-day camera while being able to have a little play from time to time. I know some DSLR's can be pretty compact but I still don't think they are anywhere near the newer CSCs which are almost point-and-shoot small now and I don't really want to carry a kit bag unless I'm specifically going out to take pictures.
I did read about some of the drawbacks of CSC and AF performance definately seems to be the main bugbear. However the manufacturers are aware of this and seem to be working feverishly to solve it with improvements happening at a really fast rate so I don't think it will be too much longer before they have that licked.
As for my spelling I tend to type fast in an effort to get my thoughts down (some would say ramble) so I don't often get time to check my spelling\grammar too often which I know is a crime punishable by death on PH...
I did read about some of the drawbacks of CSC and AF performance definately seems to be the main bugbear. However the manufacturers are aware of this and seem to be working feverishly to solve it with improvements happening at a really fast rate so I don't think it will be too much longer before they have that licked.
As for my spelling I tend to type fast in an effort to get my thoughts down (some would say ramble
) so I don't often get time to check my spelling\grammar too often which I know is a crime punishable by death on PH...NJH said:
Its an old saying but it really is all about the lenses and the use cases for those lenses. Have a look at the likely lenses you will be buying to make your system and base the decision on that first and foremost.
Obviously sound advice, BUT, as a relative newbie to photography the OP isn't really going to know where his interest will lead him. So perhaps Micros 4/3 is the way to go due to the wider choice of available lenses? Some amazing deals on GF3's available online at the moment. For me personally the larger sensor of the Nex's won out over the 4/3's larger glass selection.GnuBee said:
Gad-Westy said:
I'm getting closer and closer to ditching the DSLR in favour of a CSC. I'm a big fan of the Olympus OMD and even though the sensor is smaller than some, there doesn't seem to be an IQ trade off and there is a huge range of M4/3 lenses.
The one thing that is stopping me though is the auto focus. I think it's fair to say that this is the downside of all Mirror-less cameras. Basically fast moving objects are the big problem and some suffer a bit in low light as well. Most DSLR's have this stuff nailed without seemingly having to try very hard. I have a Fuji X100 (sort of a CSC but fixed lens) as well a DSLR and I'd honestly be tempted to ditch the DSLR if it wasn't for this one issue. I have a toddler and unless she's asleep, getting a sharp picture of her indoors with the fuji is a a game of pot luck. I also like to shoot the odd motorsport event and again the Fuji (and I guess most/all CSC's) just wouldn't cut it. For nearly everything else I think they're near perfect but I'm sill in the camp of 'watch this space' to see how far the AF systems can be improved before I make a committed jump.
I believe the recently announced X100s & X20s have considerably better AF. Apparently the Nikon N1 V2 is the current gold standard for AF on CSCs.The one thing that is stopping me though is the auto focus. I think it's fair to say that this is the downside of all Mirror-less cameras. Basically fast moving objects are the big problem and some suffer a bit in low light as well. Most DSLR's have this stuff nailed without seemingly having to try very hard. I have a Fuji X100 (sort of a CSC but fixed lens) as well a DSLR and I'd honestly be tempted to ditch the DSLR if it wasn't for this one issue. I have a toddler and unless she's asleep, getting a sharp picture of her indoors with the fuji is a a game of pot luck. I also like to shoot the odd motorsport event and again the Fuji (and I guess most/all CSC's) just wouldn't cut it. For nearly everything else I think they're near perfect but I'm sill in the camp of 'watch this space' to see how far the AF systems can be improved before I make a committed jump.
Anyway, one thing that I would say is that CSC's are now at a stage where they tick all of the other boxes and that is why for many they are already a good alternative to a DSLR with possibly no drawbacks.
StuH said:
NJH said:
Its an old saying but it really is all about the lenses and the use cases for those lenses. Have a look at the likely lenses you will be buying to make your system and base the decision on that first and foremost.
Obviously sound advice, BUT, as a relative newbie to photography the OP isn't really going to know where his interest will lead him. So perhaps Micros 4/3 is the way to go due to the wider choice of available lenses? Some amazing deals on GF3's available online at the moment. For me personally the larger sensor of the Nex's won out over the 4/3's larger glass selection.As for the AF problem, a lot of new products announced recently are stating that they've solved this issue so hopefully we'll know very soon.
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