Nativity plays - indoor shots help required

[Pints]

Greetings,

It's that time of year when the HalfPints are in the usual nativity plays at school. This time around, I'm ready with my DSLR but I have a problem. I'm not sure what settings to use.
I don't get much opportunity to shoot in a similar environment, so I stuck it on P and let rip at this mornings show. The results were disappointing. A bit too noisy, and nowhere near as sharp as I'd like.

I'm shooting from about 7 to 10 metres from the stage. Lighting in the hall comes from overhead fluorescent tubes.
I unfortunately don't have an external flash, so it's just the pop-up available on the 60D. I opted for my 55-250mm lens, which got me the zoom I was after.

Any pointers, please?

P.S.
School rules (which I don't want to fall foul of) dictate I can't post up anything I've taken, so I'd need to get EXIF data frm some of the shots, if that'll help.

[Simpo Two]

Low light is the problem.

Use aperture priority and open the lens as much as possible to shove as much light as possible in the front (unfortunately I guess you'll be in the 4.5-5.6 area, not great). Set ISO as high as you feel happy with before it gets too noisy. The pop up flash will do little or nothing at that range so I'd be inclined to leave it down and use ambient light. Hopefully with the aperture and ISO combo you can get a holdable shutter speed, say 1/200th.

Another idea is use a standard (50mm) lens for its probable f1.8 aperture and get in closer.

Fluorescent lighting is crap so if you know about RAW, shoot RAW and then you have a fair chance of getting decent colour.

[Pints]

Thanks, Simpo.

Unfortunately I won't be able to get close enough to use my 50mm. Will certainly give the 1/200 a go; I tried it in the other direction (1/60) and I suspect that was giving me enough shake at the focal length to contribute to lack of clarity.
Will jack up the ISO, because I could live with the extra noise if it means a steady, clear shot (IYSWIM).

Have never shot RAW, so probably not the time to try it out I'm guessing.

[markmullen]

Pints said:

Will jack up the ISO, because I could live with the extra noise if it means a steady, clear shot (IYSWIM).

A noisy but sharp photo (because ramping the ISO gave you a suitable shutter speed) is a much better bet than a clean but blurry shot (because you kept your ISO low but ended up with a slow shutter speed). Noise reduction can be very good, and a black and white conversion can disguise a lot of colour noise.

[mythos]

May be worth trying Shutter Priority at a speed equivalent to the focal length you are using, so for a 200mm lens, use 1/200th (but take account of the crop factor, if applicable). If you have image stabilisation, you can shoot a bit slower, but I'd reckon 1/100th is the minimum to avoid movement blur. A possible problem with AP is that in low light you may find the speed dropping too far.

If shooting jpeg, you may want to set your white balance to fluorescent,though auto WB does a pretty good job these days.

Edited by mythos on Friday 6th December 20:04

[Simpo Two]

markmullen said:

A noisy but sharp photo (because ramping the ISO gave you a suitable shutter speed) is a much better bet than a clean but blurry shot

Very true.

On the subject of shutter speed, if it turns out to be less than you hoped, you might be able to support the camera against a wall or chair back - it can really make a difference. However it won't freeze subject motion so wait until the children are fairly still.

It's a situation I meet sometimes in gloomy churches where I can't use flash; it's can be quite a juggling act of controls, technique and anticipation.

[Geordie MGmike]

You only get one shot at this and, having learned the hard way, I would go hire a 70-200 f2.8 IS for a day.
worth the £100 or so to get the shots.

You never know someone might take you for a pro and offer you some work

[markmullen]

If you're hiring a lens you might as well hire a 200mm f2, a lens you're not likely to buy in the future

[Pints]

mythos said:

May be worth trying Shutter Priority at a speed equivalent to the focal length you are using, so for a 200mm lens, use 1/200th (but take account of the crop factor, if applicable). If you have image stabilisation, you can shoot a bit slower, but I'd reckon 1/100th is the minimum to avoid movement blur. A possible problem with AP is that in low light you may find the speed dropping too far.

If shooting jpeg, you may want to set your white balance to fluorescent,though auto WB does a pretty good job these days.

Edited by mythos on Friday 6th December 20:04

I'm using a 60D, so not a FF (1.6x crop factor?). How would I use that to compensate on the 1/200th vs. 200mm length you refer to?
Had IS on today.

On the upside, I had already changed my white balance to fluorescent - a habit I'm getting used to already.

I'm now wondering if I could get away with using my tripod (as a monopod).

[Pints]

Geordie MGmike said:

You only get one shot at this and, having learned the hard way, I would go hire a 70-200 f2.8 IS for a day.
worth the £100 or so to get the shots.

You never know someone might take you for a pro and offer you some work

markmullen said:

If you're hiring a lens you might as well hire a 200mm f2, a lens you're not likely to buy in the future

As much as I love my kids, £100 for a 15 minute skit on stage is probably outside of this (very) amateur's humble reach.

[Gemm]

I've done it a few times! (Very) high ISO - definitely no flash! - wide open, preferably with fast lens, and I'd definitely recommend using custom WB as AWB can be a hit & miss. Good luck!

Oh, also, if you just cannot get fast enough shutter speed, then just under-exposed it slightly, even by 1/3 stop. You'd get much better result once you correct it in Photoshop (or whatever you use) later.

Edited by Gemm on Friday 6th December 21:40

[mythos]

Pints said:

mythos said:

May be worth trying Shutter Priority at a speed equivalent to the focal length you are using, so for a 200mm lens, use 1/200th (but take account of the crop factor, if applicable). If you have image stabilisation, you can shoot a bit slower, but I'd reckon 1/100th is the minimum to avoid movement blur. A possible problem with AP is that in low light you may find the speed dropping too far.

If shooting jpeg, you may want to set your white balance to fluorescent,though auto WB does a pretty good job these days.

Edited by mythos on Friday 6th December 20:04

I'm using a 60D, so not a FF (1.6x crop factor?). How would I use that to compensate on the 1/200th vs. 200mm length you refer to?
Had IS on today.

On the upside, I had already changed my white balance to fluorescent - a habit I'm getting used to already.

I'm now wondering if I could get away with using my tripod (as a monopod).

Multiply your focal length by the crop factor. So, with a 200mm and a 1.6 cropper, a shutter speed of 1/320-ish. This is only a guide. With IS you can get away with less, but how much depends on how good the IS is. If you have room (and permission!) to use a mono, that will certainly help, and a tripod is even better but will need a decent pan/tilt head to follow the action. This said,there is nothing you can do to prevent blur from subject movement except use a decent shutter speed. As wise people above have said, a noisy pic is always preferable to a blurry one, so up that ISO! The 60D will give decent results at 1600, and higher is likely to be acceptable, especially if you have some noise reduction stuff on your computer.

[Pints]

Some useful tips here, chaps. Thanks.

Will take it all on board and aim for a better set of shots at next week's episode.

[mythos]

Pints said:

Some useful tips here, chaps. Thanks.

Will take it all on board and aim for a better set of shots at next week's episode.

Good luck!

[Simpo Two]

Pints said:

I'm now wondering if I could get away with using my tripod (as a monopod).

You certainly can, assuming you don't have room to use it as a tripod.

One other thing, thinking of relatively small blobs of light called children moving against a relatively dark background, is focus. An average lens in low light can struggle to autofocus and can 'hunt' uselessly so you miss the shot. My preferred way out is to select the centre focus point, which is usually the best, lock focus with a half press, then reframe as required and fire. Or you could prefocus manually and just squirt away (assuming the critters don't move backwards and forwards too much). Just keep a cool head and check your shots as you go. If they're not good enough, figure out how to improve them while there's still time.

[mybrainhurts]

You do know you'll be accused of being a paedo, don't you...?

[covmutley]

Just be like the other parents and film it on your iPad. I'm sure other parents look at me like IM weird if I use my dslr at school nativity.

[Simpo Two]

And holding a tea tray in the air is not weird...

They're both recording images. Curious that one is fine and one is almost a jail sentence in these fked up times.

[wetny]

My wife has banned my DSLR's from the school for fear of looking like a weirdo, but as you say iPads and smart phones are fine. Have you seen the ad for that 41 mp phone camera? They seems to be doing a fair job of the school play with that, or so the marketing departement would have you believe.

[Pints]

covmutley said:

Just be like the other parents and film it on your iPad. I'm sure other parents look at me like IM weird if I use my dslr at school nativity.

The only apples in Chez Pints reside in the fridge and make excellent lunchtime snacks.