Do I need a manual control camera to achieve deep DOF?

[Deisel Weisel]

I’m looking to dismantle motorcycles, as a new business, and plan on taking good quality pics of parts, in a well-lit ‘lightbox’.

Knowing little about photography, I looked at food photography, to give me some clues. I thought it amusing how food snappers, having invested in expensive equipment, want to place much of the subject out of focus

I want the opposite. I want as much information conveyed in every photo. No arty farty out of focus, shallow DOF. I want deep DOF.

It tells you here, that aperture is mostly used to control DOF, combined with a change of shutter speed.

Looking for a suitable (low budget) camera, I found Camera Labs describe the IXUS 255 as an ‘entirely automatic camera’. This means I can’t adjust those required settings manually? What do I need to look out for in a camera’s spec, to insure I can do what I want?

[illmonkey]

You don't want an auto camera, as it'll just do what it thinks is best, rather a manual one.

Get one that allows you to change the aperture (the f number) manually. I imagine you'll maybe need to get a high end point and shoot or a medium budget hybrid to do this. Even better if it allows aperture priority, basically you set it to have the right DOF then it does the rest. I imagine most will allow this though.

Due to the potential slow shutter speed, get a tripod and a remote.

Edited by illmonkey on Wednesday 16th July 16:03

[SlidingSideways]

In short, you don't need anything special. Deep DoF is achieved by making the aperture smaller, which all cameras can do.
The Ixus should have modes you can select from (something like "landscape" should encourage it to close up the aperture), or will probably do a fine job of working it out itself.

[Deisel Weisel]

I wanted to spend as little as possible, £50-£100. These seem to be rated, but £160 http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/5... I like the articulated screen so I can pretend I've got a Hasselblad,while I'm looking down on the screen.

[fido]

SlidingSideways said:

In short, you don't need anything special. Deep DoF is achieved by making the aperture smaller, which all cameras can do.

That. My iPhone 5 does this perfectly.

[Mr Will]

For a given subject there only two things that control depth of field - aperture and sensor size. A smaller aperture or a smaller sensor will both give a deeper DoF.

The good news for you is that the very cheap cameras that you are discussing have very small sensors and moderate maximum apertures anyway, so struggle to generate anything less than almost infinite depth of field unless you're photographing lego-men.

I'd still be looking for manual control though for another reason - light. If you have a manual camera you can pair it with a cheap flash to get plenty of illumination inside your softbox. Figure out the settings once and then just recall them for each new part. Doing the same with an automatic camera and continuous illumination will prove far more troublesome and possibly more expensive.

[Lynchie999]

if you are taking pics of the parts don't go "wide angle" as this will distort the parts you are taking photos of and they may look funny... use around 35-50mm i would say..

[Deisel Weisel]

Thanks for everyones advice. Yep sensor size is something I'd read about too, as being a factor.

I take it this is fully auto? 'Aperture: Electronically-controlled ND filter (-2.7 AV) selection'?

Is there a comprehensive list somewhere, showing which cameras have manually controlable aperture?

[Zad]

As it is a business tool, I wouldn't even consider a compact. An inexpensive DSLR like that Lumix or a warrantied Canon refurb like www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canon-EOS-1100D-Digital-SLR-Cam... is far far better. Once you have it set up on a tripod, resonable lighting etc, it will be quicker and more consistent than any compact.

Basically big DOF = small aperture = lots of light needed.

Alternatively, you can move the camera further away and use a longer lens. The DOF will still be the same proportion of the focal distance but, because you are further away, the physical distance which is in focus will be larger.

[strudel]

Deisel Weisel said:

It tells you here, that aperture is mostly used to control DOF, combined with a change of shutter speed.

Shutter speed has nothing to do with it. DOF is controlled by geometry, so it depends only on pixel size, aperture and distance to the subject. Play around with:

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

to calculate what you need.

[Mr Will]

Zad said:

Alternatively, you can move the camera further away and use a longer lens. The DOF will still be the same proportion of the focal distance but, because you are further away, the physical distance which is in focus will be larger.

Camera to subject distance will not make any difference. The extra DoF you gain from moving back is negated by the longer lens.

OP - that Nikon is unlikely to be any better than a camera phone. If your budget really is that limited then I'd be looking second hand rather than new.

[Simpo Two]

strudel said:

Deisel Weisel said:

It tells you here, that aperture is mostly used to control DOF, combined with a change of shutter speed.

Shutter speed has nothing to do with it. DOF is controlled by geometry

He means with exposure in mind.

You can get a small aperture with a compact - blast the scene with light and it should close down to whatever the minimum is.

How big are these parts in a lightbox and how far away do you plan to be?

[DIW35]

Mr Will said:

Camera to subject distance will not make any difference.

Wrong. On old lenses that have markings that show depth of field for any given aperture, you can see that the range at close distances is vastly reduced compared to focussing on something that is further away.

[Mr Will]

DIW35 said:

Mr Will said:

Camera to subject distance will not make any difference.

Wrong. On old lenses that have markings that show depth of field for any given aperture, you can see that the range at close distances is vastly reduced compared to focussing on something that is further away.

You missed this bit:

Mr Will said:

...The extra DoF you gain from moving back is negated by the longer lens.

A headshot with taken with a 200mm lens at f/2.8 will have the same depth of field as one taken with a 14mm lens at f/2.8. You'll have to stand in very different places to take them, but the DoF does not change.

Sure, if you move back without zooming in you get more depth of field but you also get a completely different shot - a full length portrait rather than a headshot for example. Same applies with zooming out; stay where you are and zoom out and you'll get more DoF but again the framing of your subject changes completely.

If you want to take a picture of something of a given size then changing camera to subject distance is no use.

Edited by Mr Will on Thursday 17th July 07:06

[fido]

I think you are both talking about two different situations .. 1) framing a particular subject (where as Mr Will says the focal length doesn't matter) and 2) a portrait where the focal length will determine how much of the scene is in focus for a given subject distance. I mean we all know that it is easier to get bokeh even with a cheapo telephoto lens e.g. EF-S 55-250.

[Mr Will]

fido said:

I think you are both talking about two different situations .. 1) framing a particular subject (where as Mr Will says the focal length doesn't matter) and 2) a portrait where the focal length will determine how much of the scene is in focus for a given subject distance. I mean we all know that it is easier to get bokeh even with a cheapo telephoto lens e.g. EF-S 55-250.

You are making another common mistake there - the confusion arises because usually when people talk about shallow DoF what they actually want is the blurred background ("bokeh") but the DoF and the amount of blur are not directly related. A longer focal length will result in a background that appears more blurred but will not change the amount of the subject that is in focus (the DoF).

[Jon1967x]

strudel said:

Deisel Weisel said:

It tells you that aperture is mostly used to control DOF, combined with a change of shutter speed.

Shutter speed has nothing to do with it

OP - you do need to change shutter speed to give the right exposure. If you change the aperture (and to increase depth of field this is to a higher f stop which means smaller physical hole,) you will need a longer exposure time.

If you want to start very budget then the brighter you can make it the more an auto camera will adjust to quicker shutter speed (reducing camera shake if hand holding) and smaller aperture (so better depth of field) . It's far from ideal so don't be put off.

[DIW35]

Mr Will said:

DIW35 said:

Mr Will said:

Camera to subject distance will not make any difference.

Wrong. On old lenses that have markings that show depth of field for any given aperture, you can see that the range at close distances is vastly reduced compared to focussing on something that is further away.

You missed this bit:

Mr Will said:

...The extra DoF you gain from moving back is negated by the longer lens.

I didn't miss that bit, just wanted to point out that the initial statement was incorrect. You qualified it by including the point about using a longer lens to get the same framing, but for someone who is only using one lens subject to camera distance will make a difference.

Edited by DIW35 on Saturday 19th July 21:30

[boxsternoob56]

Zad said:

As it is a business tool, I wouldn't even consider a compact. An inexpensive DSLR like that Lumix or a warrantied Canon refurb like www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canon-EOS-1100D-Digital-SLR-Cam... is far far better. Once you have it set up on a tripod, resonable lighting etc, it will be quicker and more consistent than any compact.

Basically big DOF = small aperture = lots of light needed.

he's got it....don't waste money on a P&S, get a second hand DSLR...Canon 1100D, a 500D/550D something like that....I sold 500D with kit lens for about £250 a year ago, couple it with a cheap tripod (I had a £30 one and it was fine for a 'budget' start to things) and later add a flash and that's a good start..

amazon has the 1000D (old model) at £149-190 used and a brand new 1100D at £247, I'm sure ebay could well produce plenty of examples for not much more than a new point and shoot too...

[Simpo Two]

Note that the Lumix, if you mean the GH1, isn't a DSLR.