Copyright question
Discussion
Hi everyone,
Just looking for a bit of insight into a particular avenue of copyright law. Essentially my employer wants to sell (commercially) my images of cars onto greetings cards. The images are of modified cars (Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Range Rovers etc). Do we need a commercial licence from the manufacturers to be able to do this?
In lamens terms, if I have a photograph of a Ferrari that a company wants to sell (they have my permission), do they need any sort of licence from Ferrari as well? If you can provide any useful links or sources of information as well that would be massively appreciated. I only ask as we were producing keyrings of a Veyron which we had photographed, then had the image traced into a render - we were advised only to have them produced if we removed the Bugatti badging from the car.
Just looking for a bit of insight into a particular avenue of copyright law. Essentially my employer wants to sell (commercially) my images of cars onto greetings cards. The images are of modified cars (Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Range Rovers etc). Do we need a commercial licence from the manufacturers to be able to do this?
In lamens terms, if I have a photograph of a Ferrari that a company wants to sell (they have my permission), do they need any sort of licence from Ferrari as well? If you can provide any useful links or sources of information as well that would be massively appreciated. I only ask as we were producing keyrings of a Veyron which we had photographed, then had the image traced into a render - we were advised only to have them produced if we removed the Bugatti badging from the car.
I think, and I dont specialise in this or really claim to know the ins and outs of it, but if you're trying to associate the company with these brands then you've got a problem. A Bugatti keyring for example, I'd guess whoever owns Bugatti (is it VW?) would own the brand patent, trademark and copyright, but a photo of a car that happened to be a Ferrari or a Ford Excort could be questionable
I wouldnt want to go down this without a bit more advice personally, actually I'd dodge it altogether as it sounds like hassle
I wouldnt want to go down this without a bit more advice personally, actually I'd dodge it altogether as it sounds like hassle
I don't know the law but I had an issue a few years ago. I wanted to make a few quid on the side so decided to use an image of an old Beetle I'd taken (Cal Bug look, not my car) and run it through photoshop for some effects. I signed up to one of those web sites that lets you set up your own shop.
Basically they let you upload your images and they supply t-shirts, mugs, mouse mats, etc. The idea being you promote your "shop" and the company takes their cut from all orders to cover delivery, printing and items and you get a bit of profit on top. It was never going to make me rich but the picture was cool and I added a few captions that might appeal to the VW scene set. After 2 days it was removed and I got an email saying MY image may be infringing copywrite (or words to that effect.) I deleted my account and moved on. I don't know if someone from VW saw it and reported it or what.
Basically they let you upload your images and they supply t-shirts, mugs, mouse mats, etc. The idea being you promote your "shop" and the company takes their cut from all orders to cover delivery, printing and items and you get a bit of profit on top. It was never going to make me rich but the picture was cool and I added a few captions that might appeal to the VW scene set. After 2 days it was removed and I got an email saying MY image may be infringing copywrite (or words to that effect.) I deleted my account and moved on. I don't know if someone from VW saw it and reported it or what.
It's a bit of a grey area, but I think if the car/brand is the main subject of the photo and you are making money from it then technically you would need their consent. I know that when I uploaded my car photos to a photo library (Alamy) they got taken down unless I supplied a photo release form for them.
I think that you will be fine using photographs that you have taken of pretty much anything. You can't copyright an object, so Ferrari/Lotus/whoever can't claim that. The problem is the use of the logo/badge, which is subject to copyright.
That used to be the case, however, Rhianna has just successfully stopped TopShop from using an image of herself on T-Shirts, despite the fact that photograph used is not her copyright.
That used to be the case, however, Rhianna has just successfully stopped TopShop from using an image of herself on T-Shirts, despite the fact that photograph used is not her copyright.
If you read the BBC story on the Rihanna case in detail it kind of explains this issue rather well.
"there is no "personality/image right" in UK law"
The Rihanna issue was a case of "passing off"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-30932...
Rogue86 said:
Hi everyone,
Just looking for a bit of insight into a particular avenue of copyright law. Essentially my employer wants to sell (commercially) my images of cars onto greetings cards. The images are of modified cars (Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Range Rovers etc). Do we need a commercial licence from the manufacturers to be able to do this?
In lamens terms, if I have a photograph of a Ferrari that a company wants to sell (they have my permission), do they need any sort of licence from Ferrari as well? If you can provide any useful links or sources of information as well that would be massively appreciated. I only ask as we were producing keyrings of a Veyron which we had photographed, then had the image traced into a render - we were advised only to have them produced if we removed the Bugatti badging from the car.
No, you do not need any sort of licence from the Manufacturers. In simple terms the photographer owns the copyright of the photos. As the photographer you need to grant a licence to your employer.Just looking for a bit of insight into a particular avenue of copyright law. Essentially my employer wants to sell (commercially) my images of cars onto greetings cards. The images are of modified cars (Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Range Rovers etc). Do we need a commercial licence from the manufacturers to be able to do this?
In lamens terms, if I have a photograph of a Ferrari that a company wants to sell (they have my permission), do they need any sort of licence from Ferrari as well? If you can provide any useful links or sources of information as well that would be massively appreciated. I only ask as we were producing keyrings of a Veyron which we had photographed, then had the image traced into a render - we were advised only to have them produced if we removed the Bugatti badging from the car.
toon10 said:
I don't know the law but I had an issue a few years ago. I wanted to make a few quid on the side so decided to use an image of an old Beetle I'd taken (Cal Bug look, not my car) and run it through photoshop for some effects. I signed up to one of those web sites that lets you set up your own shop.
Basically they let you upload your images and they supply t-shirts, mugs, mouse mats, etc. The idea being you promote your "shop" and the company takes their cut from all orders to cover delivery, printing and items and you get a bit of profit on top. It was never going to make me rich but the picture was cool and I added a few captions that might appeal to the VW scene set. After 2 days it was removed and I got an email saying MY image may be infringing copywrite (or words to that effect.) I deleted my account and moved on. I don't know if someone from VW saw it and reported it or what.
This would not have been VW, it was most likely your competitors on the site.Basically they let you upload your images and they supply t-shirts, mugs, mouse mats, etc. The idea being you promote your "shop" and the company takes their cut from all orders to cover delivery, printing and items and you get a bit of profit on top. It was never going to make me rich but the picture was cool and I added a few captions that might appeal to the VW scene set. After 2 days it was removed and I got an email saying MY image may be infringing copywrite (or words to that effect.) I deleted my account and moved on. I don't know if someone from VW saw it and reported it or what.
4Lmike said:
It's a bit of a grey area, but I think if the car/brand is the main subject of the photo and you are making money from it then technically you would need their consent. I know that when I uploaded my car photos to a photo library (Alamy) they got taken down unless I supplied a photo release form for them.
It is not grey at all. In this case Alamy needs a license from you to use the photos on their site, not from the manufacturers.Edited by Martin4x4 on Thursday 22 January 18:26
Getty was succesfully sued by a furniture manufacturer (Le Corbusier) for selling a photo of a model with identifiable furniture from them - without a release.
Note selling products with trademarked likenesses is wholely different than publishing images as news/media.
EG I could take your image (in a public place) and put it in a magazine or newspaper story, but not in an advert or on a tshirt.
Note selling products with trademarked likenesses is wholely different than publishing images as news/media.
EG I could take your image (in a public place) and put it in a magazine or newspaper story, but not in an advert or on a tshirt.
http://www.istockphoto.com/help/sell-stock/trainin...
http://www.alamy.com/contributor/help/image-releas...
https://graphicartistsguild.org/tools_resources/tr...
Car Companies / Trademark Rights
The car companies’ trademark rights may be invoked if images of their cars are used in a catalog to sell another entity’s products. Under trademark laws, a company’s name, sub-brands, logos, and any other symbols associated with a company, including the appearance of the company’s products (in this case, the cars), are owned by the company as its exclusive trademarks and “trade dress.” The car company has a right to stop any use of its trademarks or trade dress that falsely suggests that another company’s goods or services come from the car company, or that the car company endorses the other entity’s goods or services. When the company’s trademarks or trade dress are used to trade on the car company’s reputation in this way, the legal claim is for trade- mark infringement.
So in your case, the question is whether the photos are being used in your catalog in a way that could create an impression in the minds of those who receive the catalog that the carmakers are endorsing your products. Unfortunately, this is a case-by-case factual analysis. Sometimes photos can be used in a catalog in a way that is perceived as purely editorial—that is, showing images of general interest to your customers in a newsworthy way, without directly linking the image to selling a particular product. In that case you wouldn’t need the car company’s permission. But the line between editorial use and commercial use is not always clear. Sometimes it may depend upon whether the catalog text or photo captions suggest that your products are made or endorsed by the car company.
http://www.alamy.com/contributor/help/image-releas...
https://graphicartistsguild.org/tools_resources/tr...
Car Companies / Trademark Rights
The car companies’ trademark rights may be invoked if images of their cars are used in a catalog to sell another entity’s products. Under trademark laws, a company’s name, sub-brands, logos, and any other symbols associated with a company, including the appearance of the company’s products (in this case, the cars), are owned by the company as its exclusive trademarks and “trade dress.” The car company has a right to stop any use of its trademarks or trade dress that falsely suggests that another company’s goods or services come from the car company, or that the car company endorses the other entity’s goods or services. When the company’s trademarks or trade dress are used to trade on the car company’s reputation in this way, the legal claim is for trade- mark infringement.
So in your case, the question is whether the photos are being used in your catalog in a way that could create an impression in the minds of those who receive the catalog that the carmakers are endorsing your products. Unfortunately, this is a case-by-case factual analysis. Sometimes photos can be used in a catalog in a way that is perceived as purely editorial—that is, showing images of general interest to your customers in a newsworthy way, without directly linking the image to selling a particular product. In that case you wouldn’t need the car company’s permission. But the line between editorial use and commercial use is not always clear. Sometimes it may depend upon whether the catalog text or photo captions suggest that your products are made or endorsed by the car company.
Rogue86 said:
Thanks for the responses, seems I was right to be confused. Martin, do you have that in bonafide legal-speak anywhere? I need to be 100% on this before we even consider going down this route and "some bloke on pistonheads said" probably wont be my best response if we get it wrong!
GOV.UK said:
Who owns copyright in an image?
The person who creates an image (“the creator”), such as somebody who takes a photo, will generally be the owner of the original copyright. However, if it was created as part of the creator’s job, the employer will generally own the copyright.
A creator can license the work directly themselves. They can also “assign” (transfer) the copyright to another person or allow that other person to license the work on their behalf. Licensing is giving another person or organisation permission to use a work such as an image, often in return for payment and/or on certain conditions.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/305165/c-notice-201401.pdfThe person who creates an image (“the creator”), such as somebody who takes a photo, will generally be the owner of the original copyright. However, if it was created as part of the creator’s job, the employer will generally own the copyright.
A creator can license the work directly themselves. They can also “assign” (transfer) the copyright to another person or allow that other person to license the work on their behalf. Licensing is giving another person or organisation permission to use a work such as an image, often in return for payment and/or on certain conditions.
Martin4x4 said:
Rogue86 said:
Thanks for the responses, seems I was right to be confused. Martin, do you have that in bonafide legal-speak anywhere? I need to be 100% on this before we even consider going down this route and "some bloke on pistonheads said" probably wont be my best response if we get it wrong!
GOV.UK said:
Who owns copyright in an image?
The person who creates an image (“the creator”), such as somebody who takes a photo, will generally be the owner of the original copyright. However, if it was created as part of the creator’s job, the employer will generally own the copyright.
A creator can license the work directly themselves. They can also “assign” (transfer) the copyright to another person or allow that other person to license the work on their behalf. Licensing is giving another person or organisation permission to use a work such as an image, often in return for payment and/or on certain conditions.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/305165/c-notice-201401.pdfThe person who creates an image (“the creator”), such as somebody who takes a photo, will generally be the owner of the original copyright. However, if it was created as part of the creator’s job, the employer will generally own the copyright.
A creator can license the work directly themselves. They can also “assign” (transfer) the copyright to another person or allow that other person to license the work on their behalf. Licensing is giving another person or organisation permission to use a work such as an image, often in return for payment and/or on certain conditions.
Shooting an identifiable car and making posters etc is a commercial purpose even if you own the car, the camera, take the image yourself etc.
Will come under Design rights or derrivative works, or covered under Trade Desss.
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/protect/p15_desi...
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p22_de...
RobDickinson said:
Thats for the photograph not the contents for commercial purposes.
Shooting an identifiable car and making posters etc is a commercial purpose even if you own the car, the camera, take the image yourself etc.
Will come under Design rights or derrivative works, or covered under Trade Desss.
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/protect/p15_desi...
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p22_de...
What part of those links do you think applies in this situation, because they are completely irrelevant to the OPs question.Shooting an identifiable car and making posters etc is a commercial purpose even if you own the car, the camera, take the image yourself etc.
Will come under Design rights or derrivative works, or covered under Trade Desss.
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/protect/p15_desi...
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p22_de...
Rogue86 said:
Hi everyone,
Just looking for a bit of insight into a particular avenue of copyright law. Essentially my employer wants to sell (commercially) my images of cars onto greetings cards. The images are of modified cars (Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Range Rovers etc). Do we need a commercial licence from the manufacturers to be able to do this?
Short answer: yes, depending on the age of the vehicle and the mods. Your employer need a design right licence from the car manufacturer, another one from the manufacturer of the mods (assuming that they are bodywork mods and visible) and (most likely) a trade mark licence from the can manufacturer and possibly the mod manufacturer. It's *possible* the design right has expired, but don't bank on it. Just looking for a bit of insight into a particular avenue of copyright law. Essentially my employer wants to sell (commercially) my images of cars onto greetings cards. The images are of modified cars (Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Range Rovers etc). Do we need a commercial licence from the manufacturers to be able to do this?
Longer answer: a copy of a copy is a copy. 2d<->3D doesn't matter. If you take a photo of something that is protected by a right that prevents copying, you're infringing that right. You may well have a separate copyright in your photo, and could stop someone else churning copies of your photo, but they'd be in as much s
t with the owner of the right that you've infringed as you would be. In short: something can be both a copyright work protected by A and also an infringement of B's work at the same time. BTW, if you took the photos in the course of your employment, then unless your employment contract says something to the contrary, your employer has always owned the copyright in them.
Trade mark infringement/passing off is completely different, and all about protecting the goodwill that has been built up in a a mark or brand or image/imagery; use that might be understood to misrepresent an association with the brand owner is unlawful. If you are putting Ferrari's prancing horse on a greetings card, you are very likely to need a licence to do so.
PS: IAAL. It's not an especially grey area - it's pretty clear. There's a lot of guesswork, misinformation and plain rubbish in this thread that is best ignored. I'm not looking at anyone in particular, but most of what Martin4x4 has said is the polar opposite of the correct position. He did get it right when he said it's not a grey area though.
The cars are modified by my employer (wheels mainly, bodykits, interiors) - we've used the images commercially in adverts and brochures already (with only a few small caveats put in place by OEM companies, usually to do with endorsement issues such as a photo of a wheel by itself not being allowed to have a manufacturer cap - though being allowed if the full car is visible). Im comfortable with my employee/employer contract with regards copyright but its the licenseship we're concerned with.
Thanks again for the replies!
Thanks again for the replies!
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