CSC's (Mirrorless) - Talk to me
Discussion
Hi all,
Looking at moving from a Canon 70d to something else. To be honest, never really got on with the Canon, especially the auto focus system so fancy a change. Mainly take portraits, landscapes and static car photography, very very rarely any action shots or video.
For some reason i'm at a complete loss at what to get but think I fancy a mirrorless due to the compact nature (took my Canon on holiday and it was a huge PITA). Have a budget of around £1500 (which I'd like a lens at this price too).
I've had a look at:
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark II - I think is a beautiful looking camera, but the four-thirds sensor size puts me off and feels awkward to hold due to being too small.
FujiFilm X-T1 or X-T2 - Once again, love the styling but i'd prefer the X-T2 (better sensor, prefer the ergonomics) and the fact it's newer. But lens opions are limited and seem pricey.
Sony Alpha A7 Mark II - Felt the best quality, best ergonomics and full frame. Good lens selection at decent prices. Ony concern here it's 2 years old, at a guess they'll bring a new one out soon, should I wait?
Are there any other cameras I should look at, even DSLR?
Looking at moving from a Canon 70d to something else. To be honest, never really got on with the Canon, especially the auto focus system so fancy a change. Mainly take portraits, landscapes and static car photography, very very rarely any action shots or video.
For some reason i'm at a complete loss at what to get but think I fancy a mirrorless due to the compact nature (took my Canon on holiday and it was a huge PITA). Have a budget of around £1500 (which I'd like a lens at this price too).
I've had a look at:
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark II - I think is a beautiful looking camera, but the four-thirds sensor size puts me off and feels awkward to hold due to being too small.
FujiFilm X-T1 or X-T2 - Once again, love the styling but i'd prefer the X-T2 (better sensor, prefer the ergonomics) and the fact it's newer. But lens opions are limited and seem pricey.
Sony Alpha A7 Mark II - Felt the best quality, best ergonomics and full frame. Good lens selection at decent prices. Ony concern here it's 2 years old, at a guess they'll bring a new one out soon, should I wait?
Are there any other cameras I should look at, even DSLR?
I'm not necessarily pushing the Olympus as the best choice but it's the one I have most experience of so just thought I'd stick my 2p in.
The EM5ii is quite small to hold in it's basic form and whilst that's a huge advantage when travelling it can be a pain when you're using it for anything serious. The good news is that a grip transforms it completely. I don't necessarily mean a full on battery grip, Olympus and 3rd parties do a variety of grips that give you a much deeper hand grip for normal operation. It makes the camera far more comfortable to hold. You should also consider the EM1. It's very close to the EM5 spec wise, has some features that camera doesn't and vice versa but the big bonus is that you get a proper grip. The OIS system on either needs to be tried to be believed, it's incredible and AF on static subjects is instant with a fast lens. You can get either from Panamoz with the superb 12-40 2.8 lens for about £1100. That leaves change for one of the amazing little primes on offer (a 17mm 1.8 might work well for your usage).
The EM5ii is quite small to hold in it's basic form and whilst that's a huge advantage when travelling it can be a pain when you're using it for anything serious. The good news is that a grip transforms it completely. I don't necessarily mean a full on battery grip, Olympus and 3rd parties do a variety of grips that give you a much deeper hand grip for normal operation. It makes the camera far more comfortable to hold. You should also consider the EM1. It's very close to the EM5 spec wise, has some features that camera doesn't and vice versa but the big bonus is that you get a proper grip. The OIS system on either needs to be tried to be believed, it's incredible and AF on static subjects is instant with a fast lens. You can get either from Panamoz with the superb 12-40 2.8 lens for about £1100. That leaves change for one of the amazing little primes on offer (a 17mm 1.8 might work well for your usage).
EnthusiastOwned said:
I've had a look at:
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark II - I think is a beautiful looking camera, but the four-thirds sensor size puts me off and feels awkward to hold due to being too small.
FujiFilm X-T1 or X-T2 - Once again, love the styling but i'd prefer the X-T2 (better sensor, prefer the ergonomics) and the fact it's newer. But lens opions are limited and seem pricey.
Sony Alpha A7 Mark II - Felt the best quality, best ergonomics and full frame. Good lens selection at decent prices. Ony concern here it's 2 years old, at a guess they'll bring a new one out soon, should I wait?
Are there any other cameras I should look at, even DSLR?
There is a vast difference between a 2.0 crop m43rds sensor and the 35mm sensor in the a7 series.Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark II - I think is a beautiful looking camera, but the four-thirds sensor size puts me off and feels awkward to hold due to being too small.
FujiFilm X-T1 or X-T2 - Once again, love the styling but i'd prefer the X-T2 (better sensor, prefer the ergonomics) and the fact it's newer. But lens opions are limited and seem pricey.
Sony Alpha A7 Mark II - Felt the best quality, best ergonomics and full frame. Good lens selection at decent prices. Ony concern here it's 2 years old, at a guess they'll bring a new one out soon, should I wait?
Are there any other cameras I should look at, even DSLR?
A7 mk2 will likely get an upgrade early next year, but its sony, it'll cost more, and do very little new. key thing here though is it wont make the A7 mk2 any worse!
The mirrorless are nice and compact right up until you put that 2.8 zoom or 1.4 prime on, then its very close to an SLR.. the good thing with the sony etc is you can throw on a pancake or the 35/2.8 etc and still have a compact setup if needed.
RobDickinson said:
There is a vast difference between a 2.0 crop m43rds sensor and the 35mm sensor in the a7 series.
A7 mk2 will likely get an upgrade early next year, but its sony, it'll cost more, and do very little new. key thing here though is it wont make the A7 mk2 any worse!
The mirrorless are nice and compact right up until you put that 2.8 zoom or 1.4 prime on, then its very close to an SLR.. the good thing with the sony etc is you can throw on a pancake or the 35/2.8 etc and still have a compact setup if needed.
I've heard this a lot but I think there is still a huge difference when looking at m4/3 in particular with Fuji sitting somewhere in the middle. I guess it's inevitable that a Sony A7 is going to have some pretty big lenses but here's a photo I found of a Nikon DSLR (looks like a d750 so not even the biggest) with a 24-70 vs. an EM1 with a 12-40 2.8 attached. Huge difference. A7 mk2 will likely get an upgrade early next year, but its sony, it'll cost more, and do very little new. key thing here though is it wont make the A7 mk2 any worse!
The mirrorless are nice and compact right up until you put that 2.8 zoom or 1.4 prime on, then its very close to an SLR.. the good thing with the sony etc is you can throw on a pancake or the 35/2.8 etc and still have a compact setup if needed.
When I had an EM5ii, I also had a 40-150 2.8 so equivalent of 80-300. It seemed huge compared to the little Olympus body but it was amazing sitting the set up next to my D3 with a 70-200 attached. It made it look like a toy. Ultimately though, I preferred going down the prime route as ~(as Rob says) that is where real size and weight saving could be made. That makes for a really compact set up.
I'm something of a hypocrite though as despite singing the praises and the size benefits, I ultimately ended up back with an FX Nikon. It's just what I feel most comfortable using and I love the DR on those big sensors.
How about used ? Mpb have an e-m1 for £499
https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/used-equipment/used-phot...
There are loads of great lenses, for example the oly 45 1.8 goes for around £115 used. If that's too long, the 25 1.8 is around £200-220 and they're both tiny. The EZ 14-42 pancake is surprisingly good for a kit lens.
Regarding IQ, I think you'll be surprised. I came to m43 from a d7000 two years ago and image quality is easily on par. Unless you're pushing the shadows, you probably won't see any difference. For cars, focus is quick and accurate. Tracking moving subjects which rapidly change direction isn't so good.
The other thing the e-m1 isn't good at is long exposures where they get quite noisy, the lower models are much better. You can always use live composite instead
https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/used-equipment/used-phot...
There are loads of great lenses, for example the oly 45 1.8 goes for around £115 used. If that's too long, the 25 1.8 is around £200-220 and they're both tiny. The EZ 14-42 pancake is surprisingly good for a kit lens.
Regarding IQ, I think you'll be surprised. I came to m43 from a d7000 two years ago and image quality is easily on par. Unless you're pushing the shadows, you probably won't see any difference. For cars, focus is quick and accurate. Tracking moving subjects which rapidly change direction isn't so good.
The other thing the e-m1 isn't good at is long exposures where they get quite noisy, the lower models are much better. You can always use live composite instead
These days I usually take a Fuji XE-2 travelling rather than the Nikon kit. Admittedly it's comparing a c. 2 year old sensor with a 7 year old D700 and D90, but the Fuji performs better in low light, has better dynamic range and high ISO performance, and sits in a small bag. Even with 2-3 spare lenses, a couple of batteries and a charger, it all fits in a Thule sling bag. Instead of a backpack.
When I was toying with the idea of a safari, I was worried about long lenses. Then Fuji came out with the 100-400 4-5.6 which, combined with the higher ISO capability, made me happy. I would probably have added an XT-2 for the faster AF and ergonomics, as an addition to the XE-2 which would have been kept for wider and casual shooting.
In summary - there is probably a mirrorless solution for you out there. Unless you shoot hi-speed low light/sports/lots of flash work. And for those, give it a couple of years for the tech/platforms to address.
When I was toying with the idea of a safari, I was worried about long lenses. Then Fuji came out with the 100-400 4-5.6 which, combined with the higher ISO capability, made me happy. I would probably have added an XT-2 for the faster AF and ergonomics, as an addition to the XE-2 which would have been kept for wider and casual shooting.
In summary - there is probably a mirrorless solution for you out there. Unless you shoot hi-speed low light/sports/lots of flash work. And for those, give it a couple of years for the tech/platforms to address.
Edited by Whoozit on Tuesday 13th December 23:13
damianmkv said:
How about used ? Mpb have an e-m1 for £499
https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/used-equipment/used-phot...
There are loads of great lenses, for example the oly 45 1.8 goes for around £115 used. If that's too long, the 25 1.8 is around £200-220 and they're both tiny. The EZ 14-42 pancake is surprisingly good for a kit lens.
Regarding IQ, I think you'll be surprised. I came to m43 from a d7000 two years ago and image quality is easily on par. Unless you're pushing the shadows, you probably won't see any difference. For cars, focus is quick and accurate. Tracking moving subjects which rapidly change direction isn't so good.
The other thing the e-m1 isn't good at is long exposures where they get quite noisy, the lower models are much better. You can always use live composite instead
Yeah, stuff that moves fast, DSLR's just seem to make that so easy. The EM5ii was capable of doing it in the right conditions but never ever inspired confidence like even a moderate DSLR does. I'm hearing good things about the Fuji XT2 and EM1 ii on that front though. Would be good to see the gap narrowing. https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/used-equipment/used-phot...
There are loads of great lenses, for example the oly 45 1.8 goes for around £115 used. If that's too long, the 25 1.8 is around £200-220 and they're both tiny. The EZ 14-42 pancake is surprisingly good for a kit lens.
Regarding IQ, I think you'll be surprised. I came to m43 from a d7000 two years ago and image quality is easily on par. Unless you're pushing the shadows, you probably won't see any difference. For cars, focus is quick and accurate. Tracking moving subjects which rapidly change direction isn't so good.
The other thing the e-m1 isn't good at is long exposures where they get quite noisy, the lower models are much better. You can always use live composite instead
I'd heard that the EM1 was worse for long exposure noise but again the EM5 isn't perfect with that. For low iso stuff, it's absolutely fine particularly because you can use wider apertures than big sensor cameras and retain DOF so exposure times are low but... you do see far more noise if you go looking for it but fine for moderate prints. For high iso really dark stuff, like starscapes etc, M4/3 definetly wouldn't be my tool of choice although there are some good lenses for it. But all systems have their pros and cons, it's just important to recognise them and make an informed decision.
In an ideal world I'd have an FX set up and a modest m4/3 set up but you know....£'s. Now that I'm back with FX, I do miss the Olympus IBIS system and strangely the flippy touch screen. It just opened up so many interesting possibilities.
EnthusiastOwned said:
FujiFilm X-T1 or X-T2 - Once again, love the styling but i'd prefer the X-T2 (better sensor, prefer the ergonomics) and the fact it's newer. But lens opions are limited and seem pricey.
Gad-Westy said:
I'd heard that the EM1 was worse for long exposure noise but again the EM5 isn't perfect with that. For low iso stuff, it's absolutely fine particularly because you can use wider apertures than big sensor cameras and retain DOF so exposure times are low but... you do see far more noise if you go looking for it but fine for moderate prints. For high iso really dark stuff, like starscapes etc, M4/3 definetly wouldn't be my tool of choice although there are some good lenses for it. But all systems have their pros and cons, it's just important to recognise them and make an informed decision.
You're right - I've had better results on the Milky Way with the rx100 mk2 than my em1I have an X-T2 (and X-E2) and have owned X-T1, X-E1, etc
I don't find the Fuji lens range limited, in fact just about every base apart from a decent macro is now covered, and as another poster said they are all good lenses, even the 'kit' 18-55 is a great lens and shouldn't really be considered as a kit lens.
The OP has said portraits, landscapes and static car shots, all of those can be done quite happily on any of the mentioned cameras, and none are too taxing, eg fast tracking, quick focus etc.
If you wanted to go down the Fuji route (and at the end of the day it's the OP choice) then your £1500 budget could go a long way, I would go for the following:-
X-T1 (s/h expect to pay £400-£450, there are loads about since lots were traded in when the X-T2 was released, a few weeks ago WEX has 67 of them s/h!!!)
18-55 (s/h £250-£275), a great lens covering most shooting.
56 (s/h £550), the Fuji portrait lens of choice, though also consider teh XF90mm if you are doing outdoor shots where you have more space, I have both and really rate the 90mm, there is something very special about the colour rendition.
Thats spent £1,275
Now if you need wider for landscapes then to keep in budget consider a s/h Samyang 12mm lens
Should all be possible for £1500
I don't find the Fuji lens range limited, in fact just about every base apart from a decent macro is now covered, and as another poster said they are all good lenses, even the 'kit' 18-55 is a great lens and shouldn't really be considered as a kit lens.
The OP has said portraits, landscapes and static car shots, all of those can be done quite happily on any of the mentioned cameras, and none are too taxing, eg fast tracking, quick focus etc.
If you wanted to go down the Fuji route (and at the end of the day it's the OP choice) then your £1500 budget could go a long way, I would go for the following:-
X-T1 (s/h expect to pay £400-£450, there are loads about since lots were traded in when the X-T2 was released, a few weeks ago WEX has 67 of them s/h!!!)
18-55 (s/h £250-£275), a great lens covering most shooting.
56 (s/h £550), the Fuji portrait lens of choice, though also consider teh XF90mm if you are doing outdoor shots where you have more space, I have both and really rate the 90mm, there is something very special about the colour rendition.
Thats spent £1,275
Now if you need wider for landscapes then to keep in budget consider a s/h Samyang 12mm lens
Should all be possible for £1500
EnthusiastOwned said:
Have a budget of around £1500 (which I'd like a lens at this price too).
....... i'd prefer the X-T2 (better sensor, prefer the ergonomics) and the fact it's newer. But lens opions are limited and seem pricey.
Keep you eye on Camera Price Buster;....... i'd prefer the X-T2 (better sensor, prefer the ergonomics) and the fact it's newer. But lens opions are limited and seem pricey.
The XT-2 with the kit lens has been around your budget.
Elderly said:
EnthusiastOwned said:
Have a budget of around £1500 (which I'd like a lens at this price too).
....... i'd prefer the X-T2 (better sensor, prefer the ergonomics) and the fact it's newer. But lens opions are limited and seem pricey.
Keep you eye on Camera Price Buster;....... i'd prefer the X-T2 (better sensor, prefer the ergonomics) and the fact it's newer. But lens opions are limited and seem pricey.
The XT-2 with the kit lens has been around your budget.
Cheers for the input, guys. I've done some more research and I quite fancy the Sony. Issue is rumours show it's out Q2 so March onwards, do I wait? I've just had a nasty (£800) vet bill so the camera could do with waiting anyway...
Either way it seems all the cameras have been a better price, might be best waiting till January sales?
Either way it seems all the cameras have been a better price, might be best waiting till January sales?
RobDickinson said:
Sony always has something new coming out lol. But they usually bump the prices..
Yes - by the measure of 'something new's coming out' a Sony is unbuyable! 
But, the old model doesn't go down in price, and usually for the new features you pay a totally disproportionate amount additionally for.
I bought the RX100 when it came out at £300. Is the new MKV RX100 in the same league at £949!?
Same with the A6000 series, you can pick that up with the kit lens at £400-£500, but if you were holing out on the A6500, as good as it it, it's £1500!
A good piece of kit does not get any worse. With Sony, honestly, a lot of the time I feel like "That new feature on the new model's great, but, at that price I wouldn't have bought it anyway."
Edited by JustinP1 on Sunday 18th December 10:54
JustinP1 said:
A good piece of kit does not get any worse.
^ that.. I'll be hanging on to my Merrills until they fall apart..The first few generation and iterations of mirrorless camera models saw big step changes in features and performance that made the previous model look very weak compared to the next model. But the pace of change has slowed to something similar to that of DSLRs.
There are few bad cameras out there, but always lots of people with the thought "if only I had that I'd be better"..
I'm a Canon full frame user, but with the OP's needs and budget I'd be buying the X-T1 and a lens to suit my needs. Don't get caught up in the silly must-have-the-latest trap, the X-T1 produces beautiful images if you are capable of using any camera properly. And, it feels like a proper, quality, long lasting body. Fuji are very serious about these cameras and lenses, and when my stuff is either dead or too heavy for me, I'll be heading their way.
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