Which medium format camera?
Discussion
The film vs digital argument has got me thinking about MF/LF again, and as it seems loads of people are getting rid of their film equipment, it seems like a good time to buy one.
What I'd like is something good quality, usable for indoors stuff (still-life) as well as landscape, not too expensive and ideally able to accept a digital back at some point in the future too, but I guess this would restrict me to 6x4.5 or possibly 6x7 format?
I don't know much about MF cameras apart from the baics, so can anyone recommend a decent starting point?
What I'd like is something good quality, usable for indoors stuff (still-life) as well as landscape, not too expensive and ideally able to accept a digital back at some point in the future too, but I guess this would restrict me to 6x4.5 or possibly 6x7 format?
I don't know much about MF cameras apart from the baics, so can anyone recommend a decent starting point?
Or the Bronica GS1 (as per the other thread) With this you can get a 9 cm x 6 cm back - so about 3 times the info of a 35 mm.
To be considered is the weight and bulk - The GS1 with all the bits you'll need is pretty huge (and half way up the mountain you'll wish you'd left it in the car).
If you went GS1 - try and get a finder with TTL metering - although a light meter will still be better.
I sold my kit for £750 a while back, and as you say, prices are falling.
Steve
To be considered is the weight and bulk - The GS1 with all the bits you'll need is pretty huge (and half way up the mountain you'll wish you'd left it in the car).
If you went GS1 - try and get a finder with TTL metering - although a light meter will still be better.
I sold my kit for £750 a while back, and as you say, prices are falling.
Steve
If you want to try out MF without throwing too much money into it initially I'd suggest looking at a Bronica ETRS or ETRSi like 406 used to have.
I had an ETRS for a little while with landscape use in mind but them moved onto other things so sold it. ETRS's can be picked up pretty cheaply, around the £200 mark with lens and waist level finder. Also look at Mamiya 645 Pro, there was a full kit (motor winder and prism finder included) on ebay for £350 buy it now last week. Was temped to have it myself but managed to resist !!
I'd definatly recommend buying a hand held meter or preferably a spot meter for a MF camera though
I had an ETRS for a little while with landscape use in mind but them moved onto other things so sold it. ETRS's can be picked up pretty cheaply, around the £200 mark with lens and waist level finder. Also look at Mamiya 645 Pro, there was a full kit (motor winder and prism finder included) on ebay for £350 buy it now last week. Was temped to have it myself but managed to resist !!
I'd definatly recommend buying a hand held meter or preferably a spot meter for a MF camera though
As far as I know I think the lenses are specific to the make. i.e. You can't fit hasselblad or zeiss lenses to a Bronica or Mamiya. You may be able to get an adaptor of some sort though I've never seen one. I'm sure someone will be along to correct me if i'm wrong.
I've never used a Mamiya but I think Bronica's are easier to use if you're just starting out. I think I've heard it said that film loading is easier on a Bronica but again I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong....
I've never used a Mamiya but I think Bronica's are easier to use if you're just starting out. I think I've heard it said that film loading is easier on a Bronica but again I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong....
Hi Ed
The choices are larger than 35mm but, like buying into a 35mm system, it's a good idea to happy with your staring point rather than build up a collection of lenses/accessories and then decide you want to change systems.... can be expensive...... I know, I've done it..... three times!
Mamiya did make a TLR with interchangeable lenses but you wouldn't be able to put a dig back on. They were a PITA to use anyway. Actually, good cameras but I couldn't get on with them.
Wouldn't bother with 645 format to shoot film. Your 1ds would walk over it. However they are a choice of mount for digi backs... which would walk over your 1ds. IIRC, Mamiya and Fuji used to make rangefinder 6x7 film camera with interchangeable lenses. Good and lightweight for taking up mountains but no no for digi backs.
Other choices with my humble opinions.
Mamiya RZ: Good camera, sharp lenses but rather big and bulky though. Rotating back. Takes most digi backs.
Mamiya 645. Good cameras, lenses, although a mate had a lot of (out of focus) trouble with a digi back on the latter AF versions. Plenty of S/H and good value.
Fuji GS 680 6x8: I'll mention it out of interest. Nice format for landscape and as the advantages of lens movements but it's huge. Rotating back. Does take some dig backs... I believe. www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/gx680iii.shtml Rare in the S/H market.
Bronica: You get what you pay for. They are good value and the lenses are good. I did use a system for about 6 months (out of financial necessity), but hated it. Cheap tinny feel and not nice to use... IMHO. The GS1 mentioned is light in weight but has the disadvantage of having to tilt the whole camera over for upright shots. MF is not so pleasant to use this way. I don't think they are many digi backs that will mount on a Bronica though. Plenty of S/H and cheap.
Rollieflex: Quality camera and lenses. I went to the from Bronica. Lots of bells and whistles. Built in drives, meters, AF on new models. But this does make them heavier. Some digi backs available but there were none at the time I went digi, so I went back to Hasselblad. Not as common as Hasselblad so less on the S/H market.
Hasselblad: Quality camera and lenses. Large range of bodies to choice from. The classic 500 series is a nice mechanical camera, no batteries to worry about. Light in weight, joy to use. Zeiss lenses. Takes all digi backs. The older ones were dreadful though, they evolved over the years into a great camera. I would say I'd bring one to the Essex meet for you to play with but I'm going to the south coast for the day. More expensive but there is loads of S/H available.
The new 'blad is the H1, all singing and dancing, nice camera in the hands but new with limited lenses and accessories. The lenses are Japanese glass and, IMHO, not as good as Zeiss, with unpleasant bokeh. Expensive, although they do appear on ebay quite frequently.
Lenses between brands are not usually interchangeable but I dare say you can find the odd, obscure, adaptor.
You mentioned L/F. You would get some really nice results from a folding wooden camera like a Wista, or cheaper still, a Tachihara or Shenhao (www.robertwhite.co.uk/shenhao.htm ), a nice lens a Polaroid back and a box of Fuji Quickload (saves having darkslides). Inexpensive, light weight and compact plus movements on front & back. The results would be a match for a £20,000 digi back.... for about £850 new or around £4/500 second hand.
Some food for thought. If you think the choice between Canon/Nikon is tricky, welcome to a minefield. all theses cameras have quirks and just like the 35mm it comes down to personal choice.
Cheers
Paul
>> Edited by Bacardi on Wednesday 10th August 16:46
The choices are larger than 35mm but, like buying into a 35mm system, it's a good idea to happy with your staring point rather than build up a collection of lenses/accessories and then decide you want to change systems.... can be expensive...... I know, I've done it..... three times!
Mamiya did make a TLR with interchangeable lenses but you wouldn't be able to put a dig back on. They were a PITA to use anyway. Actually, good cameras but I couldn't get on with them.
Wouldn't bother with 645 format to shoot film. Your 1ds would walk over it. However they are a choice of mount for digi backs... which would walk over your 1ds. IIRC, Mamiya and Fuji used to make rangefinder 6x7 film camera with interchangeable lenses. Good and lightweight for taking up mountains but no no for digi backs.
Other choices with my humble opinions.
Mamiya RZ: Good camera, sharp lenses but rather big and bulky though. Rotating back. Takes most digi backs.
Mamiya 645. Good cameras, lenses, although a mate had a lot of (out of focus) trouble with a digi back on the latter AF versions. Plenty of S/H and good value.
Fuji GS 680 6x8: I'll mention it out of interest. Nice format for landscape and as the advantages of lens movements but it's huge. Rotating back. Does take some dig backs... I believe. www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/gx680iii.shtml Rare in the S/H market.
Bronica: You get what you pay for. They are good value and the lenses are good. I did use a system for about 6 months (out of financial necessity), but hated it. Cheap tinny feel and not nice to use... IMHO. The GS1 mentioned is light in weight but has the disadvantage of having to tilt the whole camera over for upright shots. MF is not so pleasant to use this way. I don't think they are many digi backs that will mount on a Bronica though. Plenty of S/H and cheap.
Rollieflex: Quality camera and lenses. I went to the from Bronica. Lots of bells and whistles. Built in drives, meters, AF on new models. But this does make them heavier. Some digi backs available but there were none at the time I went digi, so I went back to Hasselblad. Not as common as Hasselblad so less on the S/H market.
Hasselblad: Quality camera and lenses. Large range of bodies to choice from. The classic 500 series is a nice mechanical camera, no batteries to worry about. Light in weight, joy to use. Zeiss lenses. Takes all digi backs. The older ones were dreadful though, they evolved over the years into a great camera. I would say I'd bring one to the Essex meet for you to play with but I'm going to the south coast for the day. More expensive but there is loads of S/H available.
The new 'blad is the H1, all singing and dancing, nice camera in the hands but new with limited lenses and accessories. The lenses are Japanese glass and, IMHO, not as good as Zeiss, with unpleasant bokeh. Expensive, although they do appear on ebay quite frequently.
Lenses between brands are not usually interchangeable but I dare say you can find the odd, obscure, adaptor.
You mentioned L/F. You would get some really nice results from a folding wooden camera like a Wista, or cheaper still, a Tachihara or Shenhao (www.robertwhite.co.uk/shenhao.htm ), a nice lens a Polaroid back and a box of Fuji Quickload (saves having darkslides). Inexpensive, light weight and compact plus movements on front & back. The results would be a match for a £20,000 digi back.... for about £850 new or around £4/500 second hand.
Some food for thought. If you think the choice between Canon/Nikon is tricky, welcome to a minefield. all theses cameras have quirks and just like the 35mm it comes down to personal choice.
Cheers
Paul
>> Edited by Bacardi on Wednesday 10th August 16:46
TLRs like the Mamiya C330 have interchangeable lenses and are up on ebay fairly often. I've seen Toyo 4x5" large format cameras complete with lenses and backs go for £250 and have been tempted by them myself - ridiculously low prices really. There are also plenty of adaptors for fitting medium format or other backs to them...
C330
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MAMIYA-C330-CAMERA-PROFESSIONAL-SETUP-MEDIUM-FORMAT_W0QQitemZ7535507224QQcategoryZ3352QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Of course you can always make your own large format camera... www.benderphoto.com/
>> Edited by te51cle on Wednesday 10th August 22:06
C330
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MAMIYA-C330-CAMERA-PROFESSIONAL-SETUP-MEDIUM-FORMAT_W0QQitemZ7535507224QQcategoryZ3352QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Of course you can always make your own large format camera... www.benderphoto.com/
>> Edited by te51cle on Wednesday 10th August 22:06
hmm, I work with medium and large formats for a living, so here it goes...
1. first question, do you really want to be able to use digi backs later on...? If you do, your choices are "limited" to 6x4.5 cm (most of reflex 6x4.5 cameras from pentax, mamya, hasselblad, contax...) and some 6x7's (mamya, hasselblad, fuji)
separate digi backs are horrendously expensive, but they outperform, and will do so in the future, all digital SLR's on the market.
2. format choice... 6x4.5 is not that better than 35mm, so if you want to shoot film, and allready have a 35mm camera, stay away,.... 6x4.5 is a great choice if you really do not want anything bigger than that, and want ease of work similar to 35mm
6x6 - basic choice between bronica and hasselblad...
6x7 - big cameras like mamya RZ and RB, or, a Pentax 6x7 (not digi back compatible), or several rangefinders like mamya 7
6x9 - aha, great format, just available on older compact technical cameras like linhof and excellent fuji rangefinder...
IMHO, the great question is, do you really want to be digital compatible in the future??????
If you do, then get the hasselblad... stay away from the H system, it breaks down... I would go for some fully mechanical 500 V series, with centre (lens) shutter which will enable you to use fast sync speeds working with flash...... modern ones have nice bright viewfinders... Hasselblad has probably the best lenses in the business and will provide excellent results with film and digital backs... it is expensive, but for professional work it is the best all round package...
Mamya - well I have a RB 6x7, and while it is an excellent and quite nicely priced set, it is also bulky and the lenses (with the exception of some) are not up to scratch, too soft for my taste, but good if you work with people.... however, I do not see it as a good base for any digital work (I am talking about 6x7)...
Now, if you do not plan to go for digital back in the future... there is another excellent choice...
Pentax 6x7 (or the new 67).... This camera looks like a 35mm on steroids, it is heavier but handles like a big 35mmm.. It has only one major drawback, flash sync is only 1/30... .but.... the lenses are excellent.... almost as good as hasselblad, but considering you are working with a larger format (especially if you count in the crop one has to do to most 6x6 in order to put it in a magazine.) it has superb lenses.... I have two bodies (bodies cost as much as hasselblad magazines!!) and several lenses, and I am always surprised at the quality of images it does...
Rangefinder medium format cameras are a good place to start if you just want to experience the format.... mamya 7 is a good choice if you can find a cheap used one...
also good for experimenting are specialist 6x12 cm or even 6x18 cm panoramic cameras, and numerous large format ones, from cheap wooden field camers (like Vista..) to expensive Sinar's etc...
with the advent of popular digital SLR's medium and large format soon started to become overlooked... but try it (medium or large format) and you will get hooked... hope you have plenty of wall space, good luck..
cheers
vlado
1. first question, do you really want to be able to use digi backs later on...? If you do, your choices are "limited" to 6x4.5 cm (most of reflex 6x4.5 cameras from pentax, mamya, hasselblad, contax...) and some 6x7's (mamya, hasselblad, fuji)
separate digi backs are horrendously expensive, but they outperform, and will do so in the future, all digital SLR's on the market.
2. format choice... 6x4.5 is not that better than 35mm, so if you want to shoot film, and allready have a 35mm camera, stay away,.... 6x4.5 is a great choice if you really do not want anything bigger than that, and want ease of work similar to 35mm
6x6 - basic choice between bronica and hasselblad...
6x7 - big cameras like mamya RZ and RB, or, a Pentax 6x7 (not digi back compatible), or several rangefinders like mamya 7
6x9 - aha, great format, just available on older compact technical cameras like linhof and excellent fuji rangefinder...
IMHO, the great question is, do you really want to be digital compatible in the future??????
If you do, then get the hasselblad... stay away from the H system, it breaks down... I would go for some fully mechanical 500 V series, with centre (lens) shutter which will enable you to use fast sync speeds working with flash...... modern ones have nice bright viewfinders... Hasselblad has probably the best lenses in the business and will provide excellent results with film and digital backs... it is expensive, but for professional work it is the best all round package...
Mamya - well I have a RB 6x7, and while it is an excellent and quite nicely priced set, it is also bulky and the lenses (with the exception of some) are not up to scratch, too soft for my taste, but good if you work with people.... however, I do not see it as a good base for any digital work (I am talking about 6x7)...
Now, if you do not plan to go for digital back in the future... there is another excellent choice...
Pentax 6x7 (or the new 67).... This camera looks like a 35mm on steroids, it is heavier but handles like a big 35mmm.. It has only one major drawback, flash sync is only 1/30... .but.... the lenses are excellent.... almost as good as hasselblad, but considering you are working with a larger format (especially if you count in the crop one has to do to most 6x6 in order to put it in a magazine.) it has superb lenses.... I have two bodies (bodies cost as much as hasselblad magazines!!) and several lenses, and I am always surprised at the quality of images it does...
Rangefinder medium format cameras are a good place to start if you just want to experience the format.... mamya 7 is a good choice if you can find a cheap used one...
also good for experimenting are specialist 6x12 cm or even 6x18 cm panoramic cameras, and numerous large format ones, from cheap wooden field camers (like Vista..) to expensive Sinar's etc...
with the advent of popular digital SLR's medium and large format soon started to become overlooked... but try it (medium or large format) and you will get hooked... hope you have plenty of wall space, good luck..
cheers
vlado
Thanks for the replies all - especially Paul and vlado!
Lots of food for thought, but having read your posts, I'm actually really tempted by one of the large format cameras - especially one that does panoramic format, which I love.
Having done a bit of pixel peeping tonight, I'm not sure I'd want to bother with 6x4.5 as it won't offer any benefit over my 1Ds II, but those large format cameras look awesome.
They're a bit pricey though, so I'll probably put this idea on hold until I can afford one, or I find a bargain on ebay
Lots of food for thought, but having read your posts, I'm actually really tempted by one of the large format cameras - especially one that does panoramic format, which I love.
Having done a bit of pixel peeping tonight, I'm not sure I'd want to bother with 6x4.5 as it won't offer any benefit over my 1Ds II, but those large format cameras look awesome.
They're a bit pricey though, so I'll probably put this idea on hold until I can afford one, or I find a bargain on ebay
ehasler said:
- especially one that does panoramic format, which I love.
These are nice for that and would give your 1dsII more of a run for the money than the xpan:
I've always fancied one.
So, do you want me to bring a 'blad and a Sinar to the Sep meet for you to play with? Not sure I could get it all in the boot of the Griff .besides my sinars (4x5 and 5x7) I also have a 6x12 cm panoramic with a super wide angle lens that my father built... I mount it on cars and shoot "action" :-)
If I were you I would look into fuji 6x17 cm panoramics which are good value for money (especially if you can find a used one..) otherwise, if you have access to a good photo lab, and you say you want to shoot landscapes, I would go for a 4x5 "field camera" there are lots of old linhofs and vista's, wooden toyo's etc, get some nice lens (something like 90 mm, 150mm, 210 mm) and have fun...
I have also noticed that when people compare film vs. digital on this forum ther is always talk of nikon film scanners and flatbed scanners that people use to scan transparencies... well, I know of only one "budget" scanner that produces high quality results (and that is imacon flextight scanner, and that "buget" is not a small one.. :-)) and only scanners I consider to be high quality ones are high end prepress units (which do not necessarily have to be drum scanners, there are some high end flatbeads too, it is just that they are quite expensive..)
So for best results, try to get in contact with prepress companies in your area and try some of their scans...
If I were you I would look into fuji 6x17 cm panoramics which are good value for money (especially if you can find a used one..) otherwise, if you have access to a good photo lab, and you say you want to shoot landscapes, I would go for a 4x5 "field camera" there are lots of old linhofs and vista's, wooden toyo's etc, get some nice lens (something like 90 mm, 150mm, 210 mm) and have fun...
I have also noticed that when people compare film vs. digital on this forum ther is always talk of nikon film scanners and flatbed scanners that people use to scan transparencies... well, I know of only one "budget" scanner that produces high quality results (and that is imacon flextight scanner, and that "buget" is not a small one.. :-)) and only scanners I consider to be high quality ones are high end prepress units (which do not necessarily have to be drum scanners, there are some high end flatbeads too, it is just that they are quite expensive..)
So for best results, try to get in contact with prepress companies in your area and try some of their scans...
Bacardi said:Stop it!
- especially one that does panoramic format, which I love.
These are nice for that and would give your 1dsII more of a run for the money than the xpan:
I was drooling over those earlier Bacardi said:I'd love to have a look at a "proper" camera, but I'm worried about leaving the meet by foot, lugging a couple of cameras with me
So, do you want me to bring a 'blad and a Sinar to the Sep meet for you to play with? Not sure I could get it all in the boot of the Griff
If you're looking at some large format stuff, look at the used section on https://secure.ffordes.com/index.htm
They have a decent range of stuff.
On the TLR front, I love my Mamiya C220. There's no way it'll accept a digi back, but the camera and 80mm f2.8 lens in superb condition cost me £150, and then a 55mm f4.5 wide angle cost me another £150.
At these prices you could try one, sell when/if you wanted to up to a digi back or large format, and then sell the TLR and probably loose little or no money.
You might even make a profit!
Incidentally Ffordes usually have a reasonable amount of Mamiya TLR equipment.
They have a decent range of stuff.
On the TLR front, I love my Mamiya C220. There's no way it'll accept a digi back, but the camera and 80mm f2.8 lens in superb condition cost me £150, and then a 55mm f4.5 wide angle cost me another £150.
At these prices you could try one, sell when/if you wanted to up to a digi back or large format, and then sell the TLR and probably loose little or no money.
You might even make a profit!
Incidentally Ffordes usually have a reasonable amount of Mamiya TLR equipment.
kikiturbo said:I'd love a Fuji GX617, and was so tempted to grab one of the last to be sold, but my sensible side won the battle
If I were you I would look into fuji 6x17 cm panoramics which are good value for money (especially if you can find a used one..) otherwise, if you have access to a good photo lab, and you say you want to shoot landscapes, I would go for a 4x5 "field camera" there are lots of old linhofs and vista's, wooden toyo's etc, get some nice lens (something like 90 mm, 150mm, 210 mm) and have fun...
I may well look for a used one at some point in the future though. kikiturbo said:For most people here photography is just a hobby, so spending £6k on a Imacon, or sending slides out to prepress companies isn't really a viable option, so the best realistic solution is a decent film scanner.
I have also noticed that when people compare film vs. digital on this forum ther is always talk of nikon film scanners and flatbed scanners that people use to scan transparencies... well, I know of only one "budget" scanner that produces high quality results (and that is imacon flextight scanner, and that "buget" is not a small one.. :-)) and only scanners I consider to be high quality ones are high end prepress units (which do not necessarily have to be drum scanners, there are some high end flatbeads too, it is just that they are quite expensive..)
So for best results, try to get in contact with prepress companies in your area and try some of their scans...
There is usually something better out there, but cost and convenience have to enter the equation at some point unfortunately.
Out of interest though, would there really be *that* much difference in scanning a 35mm slide on say a Nikon Coolscan 5000 compared to an Imacon? Also, if you're scanning MF or LF slides, does the quality of the scanner matter as much as with 35mm, or can you get away with cheaper/lower res scanners more as the area you're scanning is larger, and you're using a lower ppi setting?
Bacardi said:Nothing to beat them !
Hi Ed
Fuji GS 680 6x8: I'll mention it out of interest. Nice format for landscape and as the advantages of lens movements but it's huge. Rotating back. Does take some dig backs... I believe. www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/gx680iii.shtml Rare in the S/H market.
Paul
>> Edited by Bacardi on Wednesday 10th August 16:46
and my (mint) outfit will soon be for sale !!!!!
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