Discussion
This new 24-70 lens is doing my head in! If has any advice to share, Id be very grateful to hear it 
1) Im still not convinced that the lens is focussing correctly on the EXACT (center) spot that it should. Im hoping its me not the lens, bearing in mind the "newbies always blame the lens" comments Ive read. Still, im dumbfounded as to why so many shots are so soft! And why I seem to have almost no control, however carefully I set up each shot (shutter spd, aperature, keeping still, focussing, etc)
2) Im finding it very VERY hard to actually get any shots in focus, and VERY few of my "general snaps" are keepers in this regard.
3) The tests I have done do not produce the pin-sharp results at 100% crop. Most are slightly blurry. Perhaps my expectations are too high for 100% crops, but something is amis. I have taken hundreds of photos, carefully, steadily, immediately after focussing before the subject moves, tried "one shot" and "ai servo" always at 120+ shutter speeds when light allows (24-70 with crop is roughly 38-112mm?) Im just getting such mixed results, and SO few keepers, I just cant (not for lack of trying!) determine whether its me, or the lens
I dont know where to begin with macro close up shots either, I have no ability at all to get the part of the flower that Im shooting in focus. The results are absolutely random (it seems) Again, im hoping its me.
But this 30d is proving impossible to work with compared to the G5. I dont mind the learning curve at all, what pisses me off, is that despite having tried bloody hard, I cant for the life of me:
a) Get any results at all with ANY consistency
b) Determine whether the lens is not performing as it should
c) Understand why, even after setting the focus to the dot in the middle, banging up the aperture to F8+, and shot at 120fps or higher, results are still not good.
If anyone can suggest a series of tests to try, that would be great. I'll post the results for scrutiny.
1) Im still not convinced that the lens is focussing correctly on the EXACT (center) spot that it should. Im hoping its me not the lens, bearing in mind the "newbies always blame the lens" comments Ive read. Still, im dumbfounded as to why so many shots are so soft! And why I seem to have almost no control, however carefully I set up each shot (shutter spd, aperature, keeping still, focussing, etc)
2) Im finding it very VERY hard to actually get any shots in focus, and VERY few of my "general snaps" are keepers in this regard.
3) The tests I have done do not produce the pin-sharp results at 100% crop. Most are slightly blurry. Perhaps my expectations are too high for 100% crops, but something is amis. I have taken hundreds of photos, carefully, steadily, immediately after focussing before the subject moves, tried "one shot" and "ai servo" always at 120+ shutter speeds when light allows (24-70 with crop is roughly 38-112mm?) Im just getting such mixed results, and SO few keepers, I just cant (not for lack of trying!) determine whether its me, or the lens
I dont know where to begin with macro close up shots either, I have no ability at all to get the part of the flower that Im shooting in focus. The results are absolutely random (it seems) Again, im hoping its me.
But this 30d is proving impossible to work with compared to the G5. I dont mind the learning curve at all, what pisses me off, is that despite having tried bloody hard, I cant for the life of me:
a) Get any results at all with ANY consistency
b) Determine whether the lens is not performing as it should
c) Understand why, even after setting the focus to the dot in the middle, banging up the aperture to F8+, and shot at 120fps or higher, results are still not good.
If anyone can suggest a series of tests to try, that would be great. I'll post the results for scrutiny.
More questions:
1) Does everyone sharpen EVERY photo they take? My sharpest ever photo still required (and benefited) from sharpening.
2) Can anyone post 100% crops of photos taken with a zoom lens (not prime). It would be nice to have a bench mark showing the level of sharpness I should hope to be able to achieve
1) Does everyone sharpen EVERY photo they take? My sharpest ever photo still required (and benefited) from sharpening.
2) Can anyone post 100% crops of photos taken with a zoom lens (not prime). It would be nice to have a bench mark showing the level of sharpness I should hope to be able to achieve
doodah said:Yes, zooming in at 70mm, always aiming on a fixed spot. Perhaps its my overly high expectations when zoomed in to 100% perhaps everyone sharpens with photoshop after taking each photo...
i had a dud 24-70 2.8l used it for months thinking it was me.
i'd put it on a tripod focus on a fixed spot and do some tests. if it aint as sharp as you think it should be take it back.
are you zooming in to focus? that's a must.
It would be nice if someone else could test the lens for me, and give me their opinion
let me phrase the question this way. Should it be possible under studio conditions, to take a photo (with a zoom lens like the 24-70) using a camera like the 30D (on standard picture style) which is so sharp, no PS sharpening is needed.
Now, it may be me and my very limited knowlege... But at normal "zoomed out resolutions" (ie when browsing the photo without zooming in on the PC) the photo looks sharp, very sharp, couldnt be sharper. But when zoomed in to 100%, the pixels dont seem nearly as sharp as they could be, could benefit from sharpen, or "sharpen more"
Just took a few test shots in a ray of sunlight, and the dust on the leaves is only sharp (at 100% crop) after sharpening.
Now, it may be me and my very limited knowlege... But at normal "zoomed out resolutions" (ie when browsing the photo without zooming in on the PC) the photo looks sharp, very sharp, couldnt be sharper. But when zoomed in to 100%, the pixels dont seem nearly as sharp as they could be, could benefit from sharpen, or "sharpen more"
Just took a few test shots in a ray of sunlight, and the dust on the leaves is only sharp (at 100% crop) after sharpening.
I'm not sure I've ever taken a photo that didn't benefit from a little bit of sharpening, but I wouldn't use "sharpen more" on any, unsharp mask gives better results.
From my Nikkor 28-70 f/2.8
f/4.0 1/250th @ 70mm
100% crop, no sharpening:
I don't think you should be having these sort of problems with the lens, setting up a proper focus test is probably in order.
This site refers to the D70 however I suspect that a canon camera will be ok...
www.focustestchart.com/chart.html
From my Nikkor 28-70 f/2.8
f/4.0 1/250th @ 70mm
100% crop, no sharpening:
I don't think you should be having these sort of problems with the lens, setting up a proper focus test is probably in order.
This site refers to the D70 however I suspect that a canon camera will be ok...
www.focustestchart.com/chart.html
You mention 120th sec . . . if your handheld technique is not very good that's not fast enough especially if you're a little juddery - everybody is different in this respect . . . anyway . . . as has been mentioned you need to take you out of the equation, use a tripod.
Perhaps you should post a websize and 100% crop . . .
Fd
Perhaps you should post a websize and 100% crop . . .
Fd
most dslr's in particular canon will need sharpening in post production.. its the nature of a cmos sensor and the quality of the lenses.
if you think you are missing focus.. turn off AF and shoot something with the lens wide open .. like a ruler and see what happens. ( one of my tutors always said "if you can't focus... get another job!" .. always use MF )
>> Edited by bacchus180 on Sunday 30th April 16:07
if you think you are missing focus.. turn off AF and shoot something with the lens wide open .. like a ruler and see what happens. ( one of my tutors always said "if you can't focus... get another job!" .. always use MF )
>> Edited by bacchus180 on Sunday 30th April 16:07
I took 3 shots of this chap at a car show this afternoon, all three photos came out the same. None of my other photos were any sharper, either 
The resized photo (f2.8, 70mm, 1600th/s)
The 100% crop (f2.8, 70mm, 1600th/s)
Note, the area I sharpened myself, vs the rest of the photo. In my opinion, the unsharpened area is unacceptable.
What do you think, problem with the lens or not?
I forgot to shoot at F8+ for testing purposes, but absolutely none of the photo is sharply in focus, not his nose, eyes, chin, hair behind... nothing at all.
>> Edited by UKBob on Sunday 30th April 17:00
The resized photo (f2.8, 70mm, 1600th/s)
The 100% crop (f2.8, 70mm, 1600th/s)
Note, the area I sharpened myself, vs the rest of the photo. In my opinion, the unsharpened area is unacceptable.
What do you think, problem with the lens or not?
I forgot to shoot at F8+ for testing purposes, but absolutely none of the photo is sharply in focus, not his nose, eyes, chin, hair behind... nothing at all.
>> Edited by UKBob on Sunday 30th April 17:00
To quote form the page www.bythom.com/sharpening.htm :
All digital cameras use in-camera interpolation to detect edge transitions, and use some form of digital sampling to create “in-between” values for those diagonal lines. The result? Instead of a precise transition from one pixel value to another, diagonal details (and sometimes small horizontal and vertical details) are rendered as a more gradual transition from one color to another. Our brains have been programmed to see blurry or soft edges as being out-of-focus, thus unmodified digital photographs always tend to look just a tad soft.
The whole thing is a good read.
All digital cameras use in-camera interpolation to detect edge transitions, and use some form of digital sampling to create “in-between” values for those diagonal lines. The result? Instead of a precise transition from one pixel value to another, diagonal details (and sometimes small horizontal and vertical details) are rendered as a more gradual transition from one color to another. Our brains have been programmed to see blurry or soft edges as being out-of-focus, thus unmodified digital photographs always tend to look just a tad soft.
The whole thing is a good read.
Rob,
Can't say I've ever had a focusing / sharpness problem with my 24-70.
You may however want to try this - I was going to try it to see how bad the 18-55 actually is but never got round to it.
Canon Digital SLR Focusing Chart
What else were you going to do on a Bank Holiday Monday.
If you were to do this as well as some others - you would have a base level onto which you could decide if your lens is worse / better than others.
If I get the time I'll do mine tomorrow.
Cheers
Craig
Can't say I've ever had a focusing / sharpness problem with my 24-70.
You may however want to try this - I was going to try it to see how bad the 18-55 actually is but never got round to it.
Canon Digital SLR Focusing Chart
What else were you going to do on a Bank Holiday Monday.
If you were to do this as well as some others - you would have a base level onto which you could decide if your lens is worse / better than others.
If I get the time I'll do mine tomorrow.
Cheers
Craig
UKBob said:
Does everyone sharpen EVERY photo they take? My sharpest ever photo still required (and benefited) from sharpening.
Yes, that's one of the first lessons about digital imaging I picked up at the camera club, every image requires sharpening(the old fuddy duddies are useful sometimes !). Looking at your images there I'd say they're what I'd expect through experience and your example seems to have sharpened up nicely with no visible artefacts.
I thought I was suffering from camera shake with my 350D when I first got it, but just needed to get used to using more sharpening than with my E550.
A point and shoot camera does all it's processing in the camera and these setting are tweaked by the manufacturer to give the best possible print, a dslr is different in that it hands the control of processing over to the operator. If you are shooting jpg what is your in camera sharpening set to? If you don't want to have to sharpen them on the computer, wind the setting up a bit. If you are shooting raw there will be no sharpening applied and this must be done when you post process the file. I would say that 1/120 is a little slow to test a handheld shot as there could still be some hand shake there, try it on a tripod with a remote release or if you haven't got one set the timer to take the shot.
I always have my sharpening set to zero as I prefer to do the post processing on the computer.
I always have my sharpening set to zero as I prefer to do the post processing on the computer.
Print out and use a focus test chart, easy to test. See if its front/back focusing.
At F2.8 (or wide open) most lenses are soft, and have a shallow DOF, mebe just DOF thats the problem, but it may be off focusing.
Print off the sheet, tripod the camera @ 45 degrees to the sheet , focus on the target line and take a picture at f2.8(or wide open), see whats in focus, should be about even back/front, except longer zooms tend to have more focus behind the target.
Use a tripod, used timed shot with mirror lockup (avoid mirror slap noise)- test shots at all apatures, and 3 points across the zoom. Yes lots of shots but its easy to do, then step through them at 100% see whats good and whats not.
I know my 50mm f1.8 is very soft(after doing this test) at anything below f2.2 so I try not to use that.
Only very expensive lenses will be sharp wide open.
You also may have handshake, 70mm *1.6 is 100mm, 1/120 is close to handheld minimum.
So it could be a poor lens, it could be focus issues (lens or body) it could be wide open, holding technique etc.
At F2.8 (or wide open) most lenses are soft, and have a shallow DOF, mebe just DOF thats the problem, but it may be off focusing.
Print off the sheet, tripod the camera @ 45 degrees to the sheet , focus on the target line and take a picture at f2.8(or wide open), see whats in focus, should be about even back/front, except longer zooms tend to have more focus behind the target.
Use a tripod, used timed shot with mirror lockup (avoid mirror slap noise)- test shots at all apatures, and 3 points across the zoom. Yes lots of shots but its easy to do, then step through them at 100% see whats good and whats not.
I know my 50mm f1.8 is very soft(after doing this test) at anything below f2.2 so I try not to use that.
Only very expensive lenses will be sharp wide open.
You also may have handshake, 70mm *1.6 is 100mm, 1/120 is close to handheld minimum.
So it could be a poor lens, it could be focus issues (lens or body) it could be wide open, holding technique etc.
Bob> The shot of the old boy in his car looks a little soft, but in focus. My D200 produces similar images unless I up the sharpening in-camera. If you're getting shots that are out of focus, I would check two things:
a)That you have the focussing area set in the right place
b)That the camera is set on Static focusing, rather than Continuous - i've knocked my D200 onto Continuous a couple of times and it just refocusses the moment you try to recompose your shot (as it should).
Good luck!
Dave
a)That you have the focussing area set in the right place
b)That the camera is set on Static focusing, rather than Continuous - i've knocked my D200 onto Continuous a couple of times and it just refocusses the moment you try to recompose your shot (as it should).
Good luck!
Dave
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