What would you do? - Photo theft
Discussion
I've had a funny old day.
Went into the local shop (one in 50 square miles) and there on a twiddly thing are a bunch of key rings and fridge magnets.... some of which have my photos inserted, obviously nicked from my website (the website says 'Photos copyright Steve Carter and may not be used without permission')
I find out that the company is not a charity (I could have forgiven that - just), but a Ltd Company - so can be sued to hell.
I phone up my Lawyer - who says 'they haven't a leg to stand on'
I phone up and (eventually) speak to the MD of the company... went like:
Hi, I see you are selling key rings using my photos that you've taken from my website without permission. You also haven't credited me for the photos or offered me any money for their use. Can you explain this?
<faff> I'll phone you back
(later)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi Mr Carter, It seems your photos have been used on our products - I've no idea how this happened. I've only just taken over the company (yea right ... ed) ... you have two options...
(me interupting) Sorry... 'I' have two options???? You've stolen my photos and are selling them for your profit.
I think stolen is a bit strong
Well what would you call it?
Well we have unknowingly taken your photos and without your permission put them on our products.
So If I unknowingly took your car and stuffed it into a tree, would you call that stealing?
OK... I take your point - so WE have two options.
That's very slightly better
Either we take all of the fridge magnets and key rings off the stands and destroy them, or we give you a fee for the use of the photo and a 10% cut on profits from sales.
Look. Let me make this clear. I'm not really interested in the money, apart from all the products you've already sold, which I may never see the money from, I'm really interested in why you think you can steal intellectual copyright, make money from it, and then have the gall and stupidity to sell the things in my local shop. Did you think I wouldn't recognise my own photos?
It wasn't me - it was the previous director.
Yea right. OK... so you are saying I have these two options, well I have a third. You write me a letter explaining why this happened (in detail) and I will send it to my laywer and I'll get his opinion as to my best course of action. I'm sorry I'm ruining your Wednesday, but I think you are taking the piss, and feel you should not be allowed to do it in future.
I don't think we need to involve lawyers.
You send me the letter with your best suggestion as to how we can resolve this issue, and I'LL decide whether I'll send it to my lawyer for his consideration. It's my decision whether to use lawyers, not yours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So I'm tempted to screw the money offered and make them destroy all the products. This may seem like a nose/face moment, but I wouldn't make much and it would cost them far more.
I could of course sue, but it's be a pain in the bum and I haven't got the time.
...however If they think I might sue they might make a big offer... which I would donate to charity.
What would you do?
... (edited to add) and now to make things worse I have to endure a mate on celebrity masterchef! tut
Went into the local shop (one in 50 square miles) and there on a twiddly thing are a bunch of key rings and fridge magnets.... some of which have my photos inserted, obviously nicked from my website (the website says 'Photos copyright Steve Carter and may not be used without permission')
I find out that the company is not a charity (I could have forgiven that - just), but a Ltd Company - so can be sued to hell.
I phone up my Lawyer - who says 'they haven't a leg to stand on'
I phone up and (eventually) speak to the MD of the company... went like:
Hi, I see you are selling key rings using my photos that you've taken from my website without permission. You also haven't credited me for the photos or offered me any money for their use. Can you explain this?
<faff> I'll phone you back
(later)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi Mr Carter, It seems your photos have been used on our products - I've no idea how this happened. I've only just taken over the company (yea right ... ed) ... you have two options...
(me interupting) Sorry... 'I' have two options???? You've stolen my photos and are selling them for your profit.
I think stolen is a bit strong
Well what would you call it?
Well we have unknowingly taken your photos and without your permission put them on our products.
So If I unknowingly took your car and stuffed it into a tree, would you call that stealing?
OK... I take your point - so WE have two options.
That's very slightly better
Either we take all of the fridge magnets and key rings off the stands and destroy them, or we give you a fee for the use of the photo and a 10% cut on profits from sales.
Look. Let me make this clear. I'm not really interested in the money, apart from all the products you've already sold, which I may never see the money from, I'm really interested in why you think you can steal intellectual copyright, make money from it, and then have the gall and stupidity to sell the things in my local shop. Did you think I wouldn't recognise my own photos?
It wasn't me - it was the previous director.
Yea right. OK... so you are saying I have these two options, well I have a third. You write me a letter explaining why this happened (in detail) and I will send it to my laywer and I'll get his opinion as to my best course of action. I'm sorry I'm ruining your Wednesday, but I think you are taking the piss, and feel you should not be allowed to do it in future.
I don't think we need to involve lawyers.
You send me the letter with your best suggestion as to how we can resolve this issue, and I'LL decide whether I'll send it to my lawyer for his consideration. It's my decision whether to use lawyers, not yours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So I'm tempted to screw the money offered and make them destroy all the products. This may seem like a nose/face moment, but I wouldn't make much and it would cost them far more.
I could of course sue, but it's be a pain in the bum and I haven't got the time.
...however If they think I might sue they might make a big offer... which I would donate to charity.
What would you do?
... (edited to add) and now to make things worse I have to endure a mate on celebrity masterchef! tut
Edited by GetCarter on Wednesday 20th September 18:57
Part of me says sue them - which would probably result in them having to both destroy the items and pay you a nice cheque. If they've done it to you, no doubt they've ripped off other people's work too.
On balance, though, I would negotiate a settlement with them, give it to charity, and get the local press to run a nice "wronged man donates compo to charity" story which will handily show up the company for the thieving wnakers that they are.
On balance, though, I would negotiate a settlement with them, give it to charity, and get the local press to run a nice "wronged man donates compo to charity" story which will handily show up the company for the thieving wnakers that they are.
I'd go ahead, squeeze them and make them suffer, frankly. Yours is the third case in as many weeks from just two (non-photography specific) forums that I've heard of and it's getting on my wick (one was via the BBC fercrissakes and it wasn't through entering one of their dodgy "we'll use it any way we wish without credit or payment" competitions either)
As you say, it's not the money, it's the principle. And it's getting more prevalent thanks to a) the intermaweb and b) the take up of digital photography. Doesn't help that a lot of people are happy to let it slide just to get their images "in print", mind.
That said, I do know of a charity case in Reading who wouldn't mind some Bowens and something to fill the gap between 105 and 400
As you say, it's not the money, it's the principle. And it's getting more prevalent thanks to a) the intermaweb and b) the take up of digital photography. Doesn't help that a lot of people are happy to let it slide just to get their images "in print", mind.
That said, I do know of a charity case in Reading who wouldn't mind some Bowens and something to fill the gap between 105 and 400
Edited by graham@reading on Wednesday 20th September 19:12
Seeing as you've caught him and he's admitted to it but has offered to make good by paying you I'd pursue that option. Work out a fair deal on your terms, then give the money to the sailors' misson or whatever you want. Legal option may give you a nice warm feeling in your trousers but it will cost a lot of money for your principles.
Don't forget to calculate how you want your reputation to be thought of in the local area especially seeing as you've just moved in. How long has the shop been there and how does the owner stand in the area ? How do you fancy being the subject of all the gossip for 100 square miles ? If he's a newbie too then you're on an even footing but if he's respected in the area and employs a number of people you might start having difficulties with tradesmen etc. ! I would try to track down who has been making the items though - is it them locally or a bigger manufacturer elsewhere ? If its a bigger place then the legal option becomes more practicable.
Don't forget to calculate how you want your reputation to be thought of in the local area especially seeing as you've just moved in. How long has the shop been there and how does the owner stand in the area ? How do you fancy being the subject of all the gossip for 100 square miles ? If he's a newbie too then you're on an even footing but if he's respected in the area and employs a number of people you might start having difficulties with tradesmen etc. ! I would try to track down who has been making the items though - is it them locally or a bigger manufacturer elsewhere ? If its a bigger place then the legal option becomes more practicable.
I'd do a little more leg work before going all John Cleese in Clockwork on them.
Have a quick word in the shop and see how long they have had the products in stock with your images on. Then this will confirm / deny any asertion the company makes in the promised letter to you.
They know full well they are in the wrong and should now be very scared.
So if the shop says they've only just got them in, the company story might be true. Then I'd make the company admit what they've done, when they did it and who did it and why they did not have any internal processes to pick up copyright clearance. Then decide how much you want to punish them with either a decent payment to you or destroying the stock. If it's cash the donation to charity and reporting should be a good start. The size of the payment should cover not only the image but also the number of these they have sold plus a penalty to cover their behaviour.
If the shop says they've had the products for ages and the company says it's only just happened then I'd grab the branch and start thrashing the car IYSWIM and really take them to the cleaners, and also grass them up to trading standards. Could be it's not just your images.
If you really get no satisfaction and want to put a spanner in their works then a simple call to Customs and Revenue can kick off a very very nasty investigation. These ghouls have some very serious powers and you do not want to mess with them.
Chris
Have a quick word in the shop and see how long they have had the products in stock with your images on. Then this will confirm / deny any asertion the company makes in the promised letter to you.
They know full well they are in the wrong and should now be very scared.
So if the shop says they've only just got them in, the company story might be true. Then I'd make the company admit what they've done, when they did it and who did it and why they did not have any internal processes to pick up copyright clearance. Then decide how much you want to punish them with either a decent payment to you or destroying the stock. If it's cash the donation to charity and reporting should be a good start. The size of the payment should cover not only the image but also the number of these they have sold plus a penalty to cover their behaviour.
If the shop says they've had the products for ages and the company says it's only just happened then I'd grab the branch and start thrashing the car IYSWIM and really take them to the cleaners, and also grass them up to trading standards. Could be it's not just your images.
If you really get no satisfaction and want to put a spanner in their works then a simple call to Customs and Revenue can kick off a very very nasty investigation. These ghouls have some very serious powers and you do not want to mess with them.
Chris
KB_S1 said:
It may be a very strong start point for a good earner.
Then again the integrity of the company is in dispute already.
It would be similar to starting a business with the bloke who just nicked your DVD player, would it not ?
Make em pay up, destroy the stock and give a written undertaking that it will not happen again. Then do with the money as you see fit.
CVP said:
I'd do a little more leg work before going all John Cleese in Clockwork on them.
....If the shop says they've had the products for ages and the company says it's only just happened then I'd grab the branch and start thrashing the car IYSWIM
....If the shop says they've had the products for ages and the company says it's only just happened then I'd grab the branch and start thrashing the car IYSWIM
That was Fawlty Towers
As for the photo thing, do not accidentally poo on a doorstep near yours and I imagine a cheque to a local Charity will go a long way to integrating with the local area.
Cheers
Matt
M@H said:
As for the photo thing, do not accidentally poo on a doorstep near yours and I imagine a cheque to a local Charity will go a long way to integrating with the local area.
Cheers
Matt
They have undoubtedly been underhand, but can they be making a massive surplus? You wouldn't want some local paper to twist the story so that it sounded like you were putting local people out of business. What area do they work in? Perhaps the solution would be to get them to take out a sizeable ad in the local press to apologise, and to say they had agreed with you that they would not produce any more product using your copyrighted material, and that THEY were giving £xxx to yyy local charity in settlement against the material already sold or distributed.
That way they admit wrongdoing, act as a lesson to others and you come out of it smelling of roses (you haven't taken any money from "small struggling local business"
. The net cost of the ad and the donation will also undoubtedly come to more than they would pay you in royalties (but less than either of you would be donating to the lawyers if you got down and dirty with them).Almost off subject, but similar..
Did you know certain companies can originate direct debits on your bank account without your, or your bank's authority? This happened (again) to our company this week. I considered calling in the police, because this is theft. (In fact I still might)
Did you know certain companies can originate direct debits on your bank account without your, or your bank's authority? This happened (again) to our company this week. I considered calling in the police, because this is theft. (In fact I still might)
Must admit, my first thought was "cheeky bastids", but in some strange way, half of me says it's flattering! 
A man of your resrouces certainly would not have much difficulty in putting this lot out of business, but is it worth that? I'm not convinced that they're big business looking to rip people off from what you've said, more the fact that they're inept. That said, I don't think you should let it lie.
I think I'd want the remaining stock handed over, an agreement they will not reproduce copyrighted material without consent and an apology. Perhaps (if you wished) you could even agree terms that they can produce items and sell them on your behalf - if that floats your boat...
A man of your resrouces certainly would not have much difficulty in putting this lot out of business, but is it worth that? I'm not convinced that they're big business looking to rip people off from what you've said, more the fact that they're inept. That said, I don't think you should let it lie.
I think I'd want the remaining stock handed over, an agreement they will not reproduce copyrighted material without consent and an apology. Perhaps (if you wished) you could even agree terms that they can produce items and sell them on your behalf - if that floats your boat...
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