Solid State DV
Discussion
My birthday ina couple of weeks, so I'm planning to treat myself to a bulletcam (nice Sony one as recommended by the myriad of thread on here).
Problem is I've got to come up with something to record the footage onto.
NOT at all interested in a tape based system. They are obviously on the way out, and waiting to transfer data is never something I enjoy, in fact it drives me nuts.
So I'm looking at the various solid state options.
These seem to fall into two distinct camps.
Super high cost implementations (e.g. by stack instruments / dogcam) which seem to be more than capable of the job up to 720/480 but cost in the region of 2000 quid.
On the other hand there are very cheap hard disc based systems (as sold by dogcam - eg 200quid or so) but I am wary of these. Given that I'll be using the morgan for doing filming mostly, I'm concerned about the environment not being hard disc friendly with vibration etc.
Anyone used the cheaper solid state / hard disc capture systems and can give me an idea of whether they are reliable enough to use say on track or on bumpy roads?
The kit will also get a work out on the ski slopes, but this is slightly less important, and the major use will be in the car.
Problem is I've got to come up with something to record the footage onto.
NOT at all interested in a tape based system. They are obviously on the way out, and waiting to transfer data is never something I enjoy, in fact it drives me nuts.
So I'm looking at the various solid state options.
These seem to fall into two distinct camps.
Super high cost implementations (e.g. by stack instruments / dogcam) which seem to be more than capable of the job up to 720/480 but cost in the region of 2000 quid.
On the other hand there are very cheap hard disc based systems (as sold by dogcam - eg 200quid or so) but I am wary of these. Given that I'll be using the morgan for doing filming mostly, I'm concerned about the environment not being hard disc friendly with vibration etc.
Anyone used the cheaper solid state / hard disc capture systems and can give me an idea of whether they are reliable enough to use say on track or on bumpy roads?
The kit will also get a work out on the ski slopes, but this is slightly less important, and the major use will be in the car.
looks interesting, but nos creen to review footage in the filed, and no hard drive to back up onto unlike the dogcam systems.
Also you cna't buy online in the UK and there is no international shiping option on their website.
There appears to be a local site in the UK, but it's not exactly inspiring with it's lack of info.
I guess it might be a good product though, not very easy to tell.
http://www.dogcamsport.co.uk/hybrid-solid-state-ha...
Looks like a decent option with option to record onto solid state, and ability to review footage without downloading to a pc, plus instant backup to hard drive too..
ANyone used one of these? Any idea what the quality is like?
The like of the stack / pro recorders retail at around 2000 quid - which suggests that the quality of these ddevices has got some way to go yet..
also - is there a quality difference between MP2 and MP4 if recorded at the same resolution and frame rate. The pro is all MP2, the consumer seem to be mostly mp4...
Also you cna't buy online in the UK and there is no international shiping option on their website.
There appears to be a local site in the UK, but it's not exactly inspiring with it's lack of info.
I guess it might be a good product though, not very easy to tell.
http://www.dogcamsport.co.uk/hybrid-solid-state-ha...
Looks like a decent option with option to record onto solid state, and ability to review footage without downloading to a pc, plus instant backup to hard drive too..
ANyone used one of these? Any idea what the quality is like?
The like of the stack / pro recorders retail at around 2000 quid - which suggests that the quality of these ddevices has got some way to go yet..
also - is there a quality difference between MP2 and MP4 if recorded at the same resolution and frame rate. The pro is all MP2, the consumer seem to be mostly mp4...
If you want good quality, you have to look at the record resolution and frame rate of the device. IMO the only quality worth bothering with if you want to watch the footage on a TV (as opposed to a little window on your laptop) is what is referred to as full D1 quality which is 720 x 576 for UK PAL TVs.
That hybrid recorder is 640 x 480 which would look pretty crappy on a TV screen.
MP4 is available is loads of flavours. The best MP4 quality uses an algorithm referred to as H.264 but there aren't many portable video recorders using this flavour of MP4 yet. Whatever happens, Mpeg2 will be better quality than Mpeg4 although Mpeg4 will be very close.
If you want good quality (both picture quality and build quality of the recorder itself) then you have to spend more than a couple of hundred quid.
The Chasecam recorder looks like good value, but I know a lot of people who have been using them and quite a few of them have had problems. Reliabilty and getting repairs/replacements seems to be an issue with them from what I've heard.
Whatever happens, stick to flashcard and stay away from hard disks.
Even road cars can transmit enough shock and vibration to kill a hard disk. There are purpose-built vehicle mounted video recorders on the market, but they are usually bigger with anti-shock mounting etc. and even then I know that the hard disks need replacing regularly to keep them reliable.
The Stack recorder is overpriced for what it is. A company called Drivedata sell the exact same unit in a smaller housing for less money (although it is still >£1500) but the quality is the best you'll get and the hardware is proven in military and law enforcement applications.
I see they also have announced a cheaper flashcard recorder now for about £500 so that one may be worth taking a look at: www.drivedata.com. Their bullet cameras have some advantages over the others I've seen, so maybe a package from them is the answer?
That hybrid recorder is 640 x 480 which would look pretty crappy on a TV screen.
MP4 is available is loads of flavours. The best MP4 quality uses an algorithm referred to as H.264 but there aren't many portable video recorders using this flavour of MP4 yet. Whatever happens, Mpeg2 will be better quality than Mpeg4 although Mpeg4 will be very close.
If you want good quality (both picture quality and build quality of the recorder itself) then you have to spend more than a couple of hundred quid.
The Chasecam recorder looks like good value, but I know a lot of people who have been using them and quite a few of them have had problems. Reliabilty and getting repairs/replacements seems to be an issue with them from what I've heard.
Whatever happens, stick to flashcard and stay away from hard disks.
Even road cars can transmit enough shock and vibration to kill a hard disk. There are purpose-built vehicle mounted video recorders on the market, but they are usually bigger with anti-shock mounting etc. and even then I know that the hard disks need replacing regularly to keep them reliable.
The Stack recorder is overpriced for what it is. A company called Drivedata sell the exact same unit in a smaller housing for less money (although it is still >£1500) but the quality is the best you'll get and the hardware is proven in military and law enforcement applications.
I see they also have announced a cheaper flashcard recorder now for about £500 so that one may be worth taking a look at: www.drivedata.com. Their bullet cameras have some advantages over the others I've seen, so maybe a package from them is the answer?
Thanks Freddy.
I'm reasonably happy I understand the frame rates etc in terms of quality (takes me back to my days as a games programmer!).
Weighing things up realistically, how much will I watch the in car footage on the TV? Honestly probably not that often. Having said that higher resolution is at least some way towards futureproofing.
I'll check out the alternative stack you mention - sounds like a good option - cheers
I'm reasonably happy I understand the frame rates etc in terms of quality (takes me back to my days as a games programmer!).
Weighing things up realistically, how much will I watch the in car footage on the TV? Honestly probably not that often. Having said that higher resolution is at least some way towards futureproofing.
I'll check out the alternative stack you mention - sounds like a good option - cheers
Dogcamsport seem to sell the Chasecams
http://www.dogcamsport.co.uk/chasecam-pdr100.htm
A couple of friends of mine have them and rave about them. Some of their vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOshLdT_lak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPEvhI8cDDU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZisM4_yphg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo-rgUZW8JA
http://www.dogcamsport.co.uk/chasecam-pdr100.htm
A couple of friends of mine have them and rave about them. Some of their vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOshLdT_lak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPEvhI8cDDU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZisM4_yphg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo-rgUZW8JA
furtive said:
Dogcamsport seem to sell the Chasecams
http://www.dogcamsport.co.uk/chasecam-pdr100.htm
A couple of friends of mine have them and rave about them. Some of their vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOshLdT_lak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPEvhI8cDDU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZisM4_yphg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo-rgUZW8JA
Actually, those clips illustrate very well a problem I've heard about frequently from Chasecam users where the audio input level can't be adjusted to a low enough level and comes out distorted on the recording. A small point, but it can actually be pretty useful to be able to hear the engine note clearly so you can tell what the engine's doing, whether you had any wheelspin etc. etc.http://www.dogcamsport.co.uk/chasecam-pdr100.htm
A couple of friends of mine have them and rave about them. Some of their vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOshLdT_lak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPEvhI8cDDU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZisM4_yphg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo-rgUZW8JA
I don't want this to sound like I'm favouring one brand over another, but I personally know a lot of people who have invested in camera systems over the last few months and it certainly seems to me that most video systems costing 'a few hundred quid' don't last very long in a car or on a bike. As always, if you pay more, you get a much better product.
longevity is always going to be an issue on equiment like this, but the cheap stack system looks solid enough to survive the kind of kicking it would probably get from me...
Still at 500 quid it's not a 'cheap' option, so I'll take my time before buying. Not like I'll be recording much with it until after christmas unless something odd happens to the weather...
Still at 500 quid it's not a 'cheap' option, so I'll take my time before buying. Not like I'll be recording much with it until after christmas unless something odd happens to the weather...
It's worth considering that the only real alternative to these memory card recorders up to about a year ago was the good old Mini-DV camcorder with AV Input. Still being used by a lot of people for racing and track days and also by a lot of onboard TV specialists.
The Sony Camcorders with AV input and LANC socket (for remote control) were £600-£800 when I last looked, so I'd personally be looking to spend at least that amount of money to get a recorder of comparable quality.
Just because these new fangled devices don't have moving parts, it doesn't necessarily mean we can expect a DV quality solid state recorder to cost a lot less. Maybe in a year or so the prices will drop but by then we'll probably all be wanting to record in HD, so we'll be buying the next generation recorders and cameras and be back to paying £500-£1000 for a system.
The Sony Camcorders with AV input and LANC socket (for remote control) were £600-£800 when I last looked, so I'd personally be looking to spend at least that amount of money to get a recorder of comparable quality.
Just because these new fangled devices don't have moving parts, it doesn't necessarily mean we can expect a DV quality solid state recorder to cost a lot less. Maybe in a year or so the prices will drop but by then we'll probably all be wanting to record in HD, so we'll be buying the next generation recorders and cameras and be back to paying £500-£1000 for a system.
Essentially there is nothing out on the market at the moment like the chasecam. It's not without it's faults, but to be fair, it seems to do the best job of what is currently available.
Sound-wise, you can use an external powered mic. I've used the 'zorst-mic' sold by DogCam and it worked fine, provided your vehicle is actually loud enough. However for most situations the internal mic is perfectly acceptable. Placement of the unit can cause a lot of problems in that respect also. For example, the last outing with it I put it in the boot box of a Caterham (between the back wheels). The engine noise and wind noise was absolutely fine, but the tyre squeel was somewhat excessive...
Also, careful with some of the Dogcam cameras. I've had a couple of them not work with the Chasecam as some of them do not comply strictly to PAL specifications. I have a low-res bullet from them that works fine apart from it has vertical lines on the output (I assume down to the resolution?). I couldn't get either their 520 or 580pro cameras to sync properly with the PDR100. On the flip side it works perfectly and gives an incredible picture with the Sony Varifocal bullet I got from RF Concepts.
As for Chasecam the company, I got mine from the states no problem. They seem to be having a few issues with their UK agents, get in touch with them via e-mail or on their forums and I'm sure they'll make arrangements if you want one.
Sound-wise, you can use an external powered mic. I've used the 'zorst-mic' sold by DogCam and it worked fine, provided your vehicle is actually loud enough. However for most situations the internal mic is perfectly acceptable. Placement of the unit can cause a lot of problems in that respect also. For example, the last outing with it I put it in the boot box of a Caterham (between the back wheels). The engine noise and wind noise was absolutely fine, but the tyre squeel was somewhat excessive...
Also, careful with some of the Dogcam cameras. I've had a couple of them not work with the Chasecam as some of them do not comply strictly to PAL specifications. I have a low-res bullet from them that works fine apart from it has vertical lines on the output (I assume down to the resolution?). I couldn't get either their 520 or 580pro cameras to sync properly with the PDR100. On the flip side it works perfectly and gives an incredible picture with the Sony Varifocal bullet I got from RF Concepts.
As for Chasecam the company, I got mine from the states no problem. They seem to be having a few issues with their UK agents, get in touch with them via e-mail or on their forums and I'm sure they'll make arrangements if you want one.
I have recently fitted the £700 chasecam to my caterham- fantastic. You won't be disappointed. Bought it from Goldstar, here in the UK
John@goldstar-racecam.com
No I'm not on commission!
John@goldstar-racecam.com
No I'm not on commission!
fastfreddy said:
It's worth considering that the only real alternative to these memory card recorders up to about a year ago was the good old Mini-DV camcorder with AV Input. Still being used by a lot of people for racing and track days and also by a lot of onboard TV specialists.
The Sony Camcorders with AV input and LANC socket (for remote control) were £600-£800 when I last looked, so I'd personally be looking to spend at least that amount of money to get a recorder of comparable quality.
Just because these new fangled devices don't have moving parts, it doesn't necessarily mean we can expect a DV quality solid state recorder to cost a lot less. Maybe in a year or so the prices will drop but by then we'll probably all be wanting to record in HD, so we'll be buying the next generation recorders and cameras and be back to paying £500-£1000 for a system.
320 quid for a Sony HC96E which accepts LANC and AV in. Its obviously tape tho so no good for what this guy wants. Just wanted to point out the prices are tumblingThe Sony Camcorders with AV input and LANC socket (for remote control) were £600-£800 when I last looked, so I'd personally be looking to spend at least that amount of money to get a recorder of comparable quality.
Just because these new fangled devices don't have moving parts, it doesn't necessarily mean we can expect a DV quality solid state recorder to cost a lot less. Maybe in a year or so the prices will drop but by then we'll probably all be wanting to record in HD, so we'll be buying the next generation recorders and cameras and be back to paying £500-£1000 for a system.
KANEIT said:
There are a few flash format HD 720p handheld jobbies on the internet for a few hundred quid. Aiptek do one (z300?) or the GO-HD or A-HD. What about a Sanyo Xacti? There are sample clips on youtube. The main issue would be crappy optics and suspect reliability/build.
The HD based systems will still be susceptible to jitter, disc heads are relatively fragile things, so unless it's built in a rugged industrial heady duty shock mountedd case, then I'd steer clear and look for a good SD card based machine.Not to mention the fact that hard discs / camcorders are heavy / bulky and require space to keep them wile filming with a bulletcam. Not such an issue in car, but for skiing / boarding small light and indestructable are important features.
Lots of mates have destroyed camcorders on the slopes, and the nicad batteries have a habit of crapping out in sub zero temperatures.
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