How do we know what is real? Colour and Light
Discussion
This popped up in another post, so though id make a new post dedicated to it.
What is a calibrated monitor, how do we know its calibrated, does it make any difference? Does it really matter when we come to view our photos in print?
I attended a talk on "Colour", and it was by a guy who had worked in the industry for many years, Gordan Jenkins. He waffled a lot, but basically there are very few monitors that can actually view the full colour spectrum. Most are limited to at best something like SRGB colour spectrum (P.S. big difference between Adobe RGB and Standard RGB (SRGB)), what colour space do you view your photos in (CS3 is normally default in sRGB or aRGB, sRGB is most accurate. What colour space is your monitor in?.
Then after all this viewing, you come to get a photo printed most printers are in CMYK colour spectrum. (http://www.colormatters.com/rgb.html) some of the basics. Then we have the biggest error of all... your eye. Do you really trust what you see?? http://www.colorcube.com/illusions/illusion.htm (< bit of fun)
Oh and your eyes only see true colour in the first few seconds... you gather the overall impact of a photo (or colour) in the first few seconds of seeing it. Any longer and strange things happen. When you stare at something your eyes can get fooled quite easy. So when we sit infront of a calibrated screen for hours photoshopping we aren't seeing true colour.
Also the colours in your photo make a big difference. http://www.colorcube.com/illusions/scstripe.htm depending on the colour pixel next to it can send the next one lighter, darker.
Alot of people forget that Light and Colour are the basics of photography.. but do any of us remember the basic laws we learnt in school?
And if all this fails, if you common try looking at your monitor from an angle, from above or below... wow the brightness changes, better get the set square out and make sure im viewing it head on. Could also turn the ambient light up or down.. suddenly again, light and dark.
So this is only some of the basics in Colour and Light world, it goes on and on.
So, with all of this error, does monitor calibration actually do anything? Does having a calibrated monitor actually mean your prints are going to be more accurate in colour. Do your photo printers allow for colour correction? I can bet a lot of them don't print in the same colour space as the monitors your viewing.
Really useful site for understanding stuff: http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm (Enjoy
, The colour management section is very good)
So, any views?
And if your really really bored, good old wiki has a mass of info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light
What is a calibrated monitor, how do we know its calibrated, does it make any difference? Does it really matter when we come to view our photos in print?
I attended a talk on "Colour", and it was by a guy who had worked in the industry for many years, Gordan Jenkins. He waffled a lot, but basically there are very few monitors that can actually view the full colour spectrum. Most are limited to at best something like SRGB colour spectrum (P.S. big difference between Adobe RGB and Standard RGB (SRGB)), what colour space do you view your photos in (CS3 is normally default in sRGB or aRGB, sRGB is most accurate. What colour space is your monitor in?.
Then after all this viewing, you come to get a photo printed most printers are in CMYK colour spectrum. (http://www.colormatters.com/rgb.html) some of the basics. Then we have the biggest error of all... your eye. Do you really trust what you see?? http://www.colorcube.com/illusions/illusion.htm (< bit of fun)
Oh and your eyes only see true colour in the first few seconds... you gather the overall impact of a photo (or colour) in the first few seconds of seeing it. Any longer and strange things happen. When you stare at something your eyes can get fooled quite easy. So when we sit infront of a calibrated screen for hours photoshopping we aren't seeing true colour.
Also the colours in your photo make a big difference. http://www.colorcube.com/illusions/scstripe.htm depending on the colour pixel next to it can send the next one lighter, darker.
Alot of people forget that Light and Colour are the basics of photography.. but do any of us remember the basic laws we learnt in school?
And if all this fails, if you common try looking at your monitor from an angle, from above or below... wow the brightness changes, better get the set square out and make sure im viewing it head on. Could also turn the ambient light up or down.. suddenly again, light and dark.
So this is only some of the basics in Colour and Light world, it goes on and on.
So, with all of this error, does monitor calibration actually do anything? Does having a calibrated monitor actually mean your prints are going to be more accurate in colour. Do your photo printers allow for colour correction? I can bet a lot of them don't print in the same colour space as the monitors your viewing.
Really useful site for understanding stuff: http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm (Enjoy
, The colour management section is very good)So, any views?
And if your really really bored, good old wiki has a mass of info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light
Edited by Goldeeno on Sunday 14th December 11:34
Does that mean your printer is in the same colour workspace as your pc? If it isnt, then "what you see is what you get" isnt true. I get why you calibrate, ive had mine done with a Spyder through my local club, but with so many variables how can you be sure. Do the calibration tools come with a cert to say how accurate they are, or is it purely a yes/no it is or it isnt accurate.
In my understanding (although as a married man I except that I'm almost certainly wrong) the monitor profile ensures that your monitor displays the correct colours, this profile is then also used within PS to ensure that PS produces the correct colours and you then print using the correct profile for your printer (available from the manufacturer) to ensure that your printer prints colours correctly.
Of course, the accuracy of either profile depends on the quality of the tool used to create it. Whilst my £150 monitor calibrater and my £200 printer are by no means top of the range they seem to produce accurate enough colours for my purposes.
Of course, the accuracy of either profile depends on the quality of the tool used to create it. Whilst my £150 monitor calibrater and my £200 printer are by no means top of the range they seem to produce accurate enough colours for my purposes.
Have a read of this article
In a nutshell, the standard for colour is the CIE chromaticity space. Various colour profiles map the range of pixel values to a subset of this space in different ways. So, let's say you capture a RAW image in AdobeRGB colour space. Because the image software knows the mapping (which is all that the profile is), it knows what CIE chromaticity is represented by any given pixel. Now, if it also knows the profile of your monitor, it can adjust the value of the pixel displayed to match the CIE chromaticity - that is, it doesn't just bang the same RGB values out to the screen as it read from the image - it adjusts them to give the same colour (in absolute CIE terms) as was represented by the original. The same goes for output to the printer - if it knows the colour profile, it can adjust appropriately. All within limits, of course: different devices have different capabilities, so some squishing inevitably goes on.
BTW, if you read that Jeffrey Friedl article, he spends a lot of time moaning about how Safari is the only colour-aware browser. If you use Firefox, get hold of this extension and see how he's wrong.
In a nutshell, the standard for colour is the CIE chromaticity space. Various colour profiles map the range of pixel values to a subset of this space in different ways. So, let's say you capture a RAW image in AdobeRGB colour space. Because the image software knows the mapping (which is all that the profile is), it knows what CIE chromaticity is represented by any given pixel. Now, if it also knows the profile of your monitor, it can adjust the value of the pixel displayed to match the CIE chromaticity - that is, it doesn't just bang the same RGB values out to the screen as it read from the image - it adjusts them to give the same colour (in absolute CIE terms) as was represented by the original. The same goes for output to the printer - if it knows the colour profile, it can adjust appropriately. All within limits, of course: different devices have different capabilities, so some squishing inevitably goes on.
BTW, if you read that Jeffrey Friedl article, he spends a lot of time moaning about how Safari is the only colour-aware browser. If you use Firefox, get hold of this extension and see how he's wrong.
It's all too easy to overcomplicate this talking about perception and what your brain/eyes can resolve etc. It's really much more simple than that.
You calibrate your monitor so that what you see on screen matches what you print.
This happens because your image you send for printing has a colour profile embedded in it that matches your monitor profile.
Easy peasy.
You calibrate your monitor so that what you see on screen matches what you print.
This happens because your image you send for printing has a colour profile embedded in it that matches your monitor profile.
Easy peasy.
Edited by _dobbo_ on Sunday 14th December 23:42
_dobbo_ said:
It's all too easy to overcomplicate this talking about perception and what your brain/eyes can resolve etc. It's really much more simple than that.
You calibrate your monitor so that what you see on screen matches what you print.
This happens because your image you send for printing has a colour profile embedded in it that matches your monitor profile.
Easy peasy.
Damn right, and to comment on the original thread about photobox large printing - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... , all of their large printers use colour profiling, so as long as you have worked in a colour managed way and have the profiles embedded in your images then they will come out fine.You calibrate your monitor so that what you see on screen matches what you print.
This happens because your image you send for printing has a colour profile embedded in it that matches your monitor profile.
Easy peasy.
Edited by _dobbo_ on Sunday 14th December 23:42
I shoot in sRGB, work in a colour calibrated environment (several machines (Mac and PC), several screens - all look the same) and the prints I send to photobox come out as I want them. I have tried lots of pro labs, and photobox win on price and ease of use (and in some cases customer service)
Last thing I want is people in a printing lab to be retouching the colour on my prints to what they think I would like!!! Even more so when customers are paying for them...
I also do printing at home on my Epson R1800 for specialist stuff, and that is calibrated too - I only use original inks and have a profile for every type of paper I use - also great results, meaning what I see on my screen is what I get on the page (allowing for additive/subtractive colour differences)
Edited by Bee_Jay on Monday 15th December 09:05
WOW 
Is it possible to calibrate your monitor without one of those spydery gizmo thingemy-light laser calibrater jobbers?
I have an Acer LCD monitor (L1912?) which is pants!! I've tried to calibrate it, sorta, but the best I could get to 'what you print is what you see' was by printing a pic out and then adjusting the brightness to get the screen to look the same. All my prints tend to be darker when printed, than when viewed so the screen is really quite dark to compensate for this.
I have photoshop if I can do it using this program.
I tried using Adobe Gamma but couldn't do it: "coz Oi'm too tick!!
Any help appreciated.
Scott
Is it possible to calibrate your monitor without one of those spydery gizmo thingemy-light laser calibrater jobbers?
I have an Acer LCD monitor (L1912?) which is pants!! I've tried to calibrate it, sorta, but the best I could get to 'what you print is what you see' was by printing a pic out and then adjusting the brightness to get the screen to look the same. All my prints tend to be darker when printed, than when viewed so the screen is really quite dark to compensate for this.
I have photoshop if I can do it using this program.
I tried using Adobe Gamma but couldn't do it: "coz Oi'm too tick!!
Any help appreciated.
Scott
kybo said:
WOW
Is it possible to calibrate your monitor without one of those spydery gizmo thingemy-light laser calibrater jobbers?
I have an Acer LCD monitor (L1912?) which is pants!! I've tried to calibrate it, sorta, but the best I could get to 'what you print is what you see' was by printing a pic out and then adjusting the brightness to get the screen to look the same. All my prints tend to be darker when printed, than when viewed so the screen is really quite dark to compensate for this.
I have photoshop if I can do it using this program.
I tried using Adobe Gamma but couldn't do it: "coz Oi'm too tick!!
Any help appreciated.
Scott
The only way to do it without a gizmo is using Adobe Gamma in reality...Is it possible to calibrate your monitor without one of those spydery gizmo thingemy-light laser calibrater jobbers?
I have an Acer LCD monitor (L1912?) which is pants!! I've tried to calibrate it, sorta, but the best I could get to 'what you print is what you see' was by printing a pic out and then adjusting the brightness to get the screen to look the same. All my prints tend to be darker when printed, than when viewed so the screen is really quite dark to compensate for this.
I have photoshop if I can do it using this program.
I tried using Adobe Gamma but couldn't do it: "coz Oi'm too tick!!
Any help appreciated.
Scott
The cheapest gizmo you can get is the Pantone Huey which is about £60-£80. Worth the investment if you are doing any photo editing.
Sorry, no experience with these calibraters; do they work on all monitors? I wouldn't be wasting my money if I bought one? Does it provide good results for that money?
I might give Adobe gamma another go, first. Any tips I can follow or is it down to just doing it and viewing the results?
Thx,
Scott
I might give Adobe gamma another go, first. Any tips I can follow or is it down to just doing it and viewing the results?
Thx,
Scott
kybo said:
Sorry, no experience with these calibraters; do they work on all monitors? I wouldn't be wasting my money if I bought one? Does it provide good results for that money?
Yup, work on all monitors, you wouldn't be wasting your money because you'd have the confidence that what you see on the screen is what you will get when you get it printed by someone like Photobox.It provides very good results for that money.
If you are printing at home, then you need to get profiles for your printer and each type of paper that you use (a whole different story)...
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