What is photography?
Discussion
I have to ask the question of what is photography?
I have three examples in the last few months where I've seen a "professional" photographer at work, and each time I have had an issue. Are they photographers, or people with a nice camera taking snaps?
First example - wedding photographer. Didn't particularly think he was all that when he would line people up and take a single shot. I mean, he has a high end digital Nikon (don't they all??), but rather than take say three or four pictures and choose the best of the bunch, he does a single shot. Lets just hope that aunt Marion didn't blink cause thats a buggered picture.
This particular photographer did a tunnel shot at the request of the happy couple. People stand around and throw confetti. Its a once in a lifetime picture for the couple. So, he posed the shot in front of a drain cover. I stopped the shot, moved everyone forward so that the drain cover wasn't in the shot. The photographer retorted "we would have made sure it wasn't in the final picture anyway". I mean - HOW?? Sure you could photoshop it, which is going to be interesting since the confetti would make things random - but why not just set the shot up properly from the start??
The shot went ahead, and he took 2 whole pictures. Personally, I would have had my finger on the trigger and pick the very best shot. But hey. 2 shots was all that was required.
Second event was another wedding photographer. Single shots again, wouldn't want to waste one of those expensive memory cards with rubbish or anything. MsTinman even stepped in at one point to sort out the brides dress. I mean the photographer could not be arsed to get her dress looking good in the picture.
To some extent I shadowed the photographer with my camera and took the best part of 600 shots during the day.
When the couple got back from the honeymoon, the official pictures were ready and they were heartbroken. They were rubbish. They asked for my extensive catalogue and those are the ones that will be remembered. Very sad when the best man's camera has done the heavy lifting.
And finally, a graduation. 2 guys taking pictures of 500 students (3 breaks). One shot per person and they each took a turn. Back to single shots. I mean - why can't they do a couple of shots and quickly decide later on which are the best? At $95 a picture (if you buy) you would think they would do more than take a single picture.
So what is it with photographers? Are they just "snap" merchants, or do any of them have a creative bone in their body...
I have three examples in the last few months where I've seen a "professional" photographer at work, and each time I have had an issue. Are they photographers, or people with a nice camera taking snaps?
First example - wedding photographer. Didn't particularly think he was all that when he would line people up and take a single shot. I mean, he has a high end digital Nikon (don't they all??), but rather than take say three or four pictures and choose the best of the bunch, he does a single shot. Lets just hope that aunt Marion didn't blink cause thats a buggered picture.
This particular photographer did a tunnel shot at the request of the happy couple. People stand around and throw confetti. Its a once in a lifetime picture for the couple. So, he posed the shot in front of a drain cover. I stopped the shot, moved everyone forward so that the drain cover wasn't in the shot. The photographer retorted "we would have made sure it wasn't in the final picture anyway". I mean - HOW?? Sure you could photoshop it, which is going to be interesting since the confetti would make things random - but why not just set the shot up properly from the start??
The shot went ahead, and he took 2 whole pictures. Personally, I would have had my finger on the trigger and pick the very best shot. But hey. 2 shots was all that was required.
Second event was another wedding photographer. Single shots again, wouldn't want to waste one of those expensive memory cards with rubbish or anything. MsTinman even stepped in at one point to sort out the brides dress. I mean the photographer could not be arsed to get her dress looking good in the picture.
To some extent I shadowed the photographer with my camera and took the best part of 600 shots during the day.
When the couple got back from the honeymoon, the official pictures were ready and they were heartbroken. They were rubbish. They asked for my extensive catalogue and those are the ones that will be remembered. Very sad when the best man's camera has done the heavy lifting.
And finally, a graduation. 2 guys taking pictures of 500 students (3 breaks). One shot per person and they each took a turn. Back to single shots. I mean - why can't they do a couple of shots and quickly decide later on which are the best? At $95 a picture (if you buy) you would think they would do more than take a single picture.
So what is it with photographers? Are they just "snap" merchants, or do any of them have a creative bone in their body...
I think this "poor performance" has been around before digi cameras. My Dad was a very good photographer with a great eye. On more than one occasion he has given his photos of a couple's wedding as the so-called professional's were not up to the expectation.
I guess everyone has a bad day..? I wonder though, it is the belief that 'everything can be photoshopped'?
I guess everyone has a bad day..? I wonder though, it is the belief that 'everything can be photoshopped'?
Hi.
I have a feeling that what you experienced is more common than you'd think and certainly not limited to the photographic industry.
I'd say that one problem is that photography is accessible to so many people and so many people love using it as a creative outlet, the issue is when your creative outlet becomes your source of income. I love photography, always have done, I can spend loads of time on it or none at all, there's no pressure. I am lucky that I sell a bit of work but it's all a bonus. I have thought many times of being a full time photographer but the thought of needing to sell work or my services in order to live, pay the mortgage and put food on the table would destroy everything that photography is to me.
I should think that a lot of people who turn a passion into a job find themselves compromised in their creativity at some point. It's a sad fact that when it comes down to it, getting paid and surviving is sometimes more important than integrity and being true to your creativity.
I have total respect for wedding photographers, I would be terrible at it! I'd want every shot just right, the big day would end up being the big couple of days! The role of wedding photographer is a very difficult one, lets face it, people want to celebrate and enjoy themselves, not stand around for endless staged photographs. It must also be difficult knowing that loads of people can afford decent cameras and when there is no pressure at all can happily snap away and take some great pictures. I think in the end, recommendations, speaking to people who have used a specific photographer and really doing your homework will go some way to ensuring you get what you pay for, same with loads of industries.
Mat.
I have a feeling that what you experienced is more common than you'd think and certainly not limited to the photographic industry.
I'd say that one problem is that photography is accessible to so many people and so many people love using it as a creative outlet, the issue is when your creative outlet becomes your source of income. I love photography, always have done, I can spend loads of time on it or none at all, there's no pressure. I am lucky that I sell a bit of work but it's all a bonus. I have thought many times of being a full time photographer but the thought of needing to sell work or my services in order to live, pay the mortgage and put food on the table would destroy everything that photography is to me.
I should think that a lot of people who turn a passion into a job find themselves compromised in their creativity at some point. It's a sad fact that when it comes down to it, getting paid and surviving is sometimes more important than integrity and being true to your creativity.
I have total respect for wedding photographers, I would be terrible at it! I'd want every shot just right, the big day would end up being the big couple of days! The role of wedding photographer is a very difficult one, lets face it, people want to celebrate and enjoy themselves, not stand around for endless staged photographs. It must also be difficult knowing that loads of people can afford decent cameras and when there is no pressure at all can happily snap away and take some great pictures. I think in the end, recommendations, speaking to people who have used a specific photographer and really doing your homework will go some way to ensuring you get what you pay for, same with loads of industries.
Mat.
There are good photogs and poor photographers, and the line between them is determined by the quality of their output rather than the quality of their input. However, I agree that it is sensible to take as many as possible to make sure there is more chance of getting great pics, rather than just a record of the events.
From the photographer's perspective, I'm sure he'd rather trawl through 200 shots and produce average results than 6-700 and get better results. The shame is that he'll use 1 or 2 great ones from a wedding to show future couples how great he is and then produce crap on the day.
I got some great photos from my wedding, but the guy was very difficult to deal with and was miffed because I didn't buy all the pics from him. It seems that most people buy everything the photographer shoots, regardless of quality.
From the photographer's perspective, I'm sure he'd rather trawl through 200 shots and produce average results than 6-700 and get better results. The shame is that he'll use 1 or 2 great ones from a wedding to show future couples how great he is and then produce crap on the day.
I got some great photos from my wedding, but the guy was very difficult to deal with and was miffed because I didn't buy all the pics from him. It seems that most people buy everything the photographer shoots, regardless of quality.
I think that a photographers poor peformance is pretty much down to how they get paid which in turn is related to how hungry they are at the point of taking the pictures . . .
Wedding Photographer - paid upfront - little or no comeback
Freelance Photographer - paid upon results - enough said
khushy
Wedding Photographer - paid upfront - little or no comeback
Freelance Photographer - paid upon results - enough said
khushy
khushy said:
I think that a photographers poor peformance is pretty much down to how they get paid which in turn is related to how hungry they are at the point of taking the pictures . . .
Wedding Photographer - paid upfront - little or no comeback
Freelance Photographer - paid upon results - enough said
khushy
You can hardly say it's as black and white as that. In any industry there are good people and bad people - people that give a toss and people that don't, the togs the OP described seem to fall in to the latter category.Wedding Photographer - paid upfront - little or no comeback
Freelance Photographer - paid upon results - enough said
khushy
Simpo Two said:
Sounds like you're ready to step up to the plate and add wedding photography to your list of skills Justin!
Anyone who does that, and does it well gets a lot of respect from me. At my mates wedding it rained (so couldnt go outside with big white dress), the interior decor was salmon coloured and lit from vertical wall lights, the photo room had a huge mirror over a fireplace and to top it all off the tog had to contend with the guests and their compacts flashing away from 2 feet behind him
Simpo Two said:
Sounds like you're ready to step up to the plate and add wedding photography to your list of skills Justin!
Its something that has crossed my mind to be honest as the downtime between events is absolutely killing me.edit
I'll chat more tomorrow. Just realised my flight is 6 hours earlier than expected and it leave in 90 minutes. Cue some speedy packing.
Edited by tinman0 on Monday 5th January 15:15
andy-xr said:
Anyone who does that, and does it well gets a lot of respect from me.
Me too. I've a mate who's recently started doing weddings, doing well and plenty of bookings. He takes a great pic and has plenty of upcoming work. Takes a lot of pics on the day and (mostly his wife) spends a lot of time processing them after as well. IMO a tough job I wouldnt want to get wrong.
The photogrpaher in the post does seem pretty poor. I'm still an amateur (although I'm looking to turn at least semi-pro eventuaally) I did a shoot for a driver last year and for every set up we did I took loads of shots (Individually taken not on motordrive which I never use!). It seems daft to only take one shot however confident you are that it's fine, especially with digital all sorts of things could happen to spoil the shot which you might not notice at the time. I also try and get things as good as I can when taking the shot rather than relying on comuter editing.
I've always thought its better to take too many shots then not enough. For the racing driver shoot, I took well over 800 photos. I narrowed this down to just under 200 to show them from which they chose about 30. There were lots from the day where if I had taken just that shot they would have been no good (Wind blowing hair unexpectedly, last minute expression change etc). I'd do pretty much the same thing if I shot a wedding.
I've always thought its better to take too many shots then not enough. For the racing driver shoot, I took well over 800 photos. I narrowed this down to just under 200 to show them from which they chose about 30. There were lots from the day where if I had taken just that shot they would have been no good (Wind blowing hair unexpectedly, last minute expression change etc). I'd do pretty much the same thing if I shot a wedding.
Edited by Marc W on Monday 5th January 20:07
Edited by Marc W on Tuesday 6th January 10:38
) I'd rather stick to motorsport.the fact is that digital makes things cheap once you've got the kit. This means anyone can start taking shots and call themselves a photographer. Me, I call myself a student as I've still got s
t loads to do, dont charge etc and do it for the love.
Now of course I, being an artiste, believe my shizzle to be good. If I didn't I wouldn't try and there is always some horn tootin to be had.
In my local town there are some very good photographers with sites to back them up and then there are what can only be described as ste. I get embarrassed for them and more so for the people that pay them, who's the mug though? The crap photographer charging for work, the punter that pays for it or me bhing about people paying for st I know I could do better but dont bother trying?
t loads to do, dont charge etc and do it for the love.Now of course I, being an artiste, believe my shizzle to be good. If I didn't I wouldn't try and there is always some horn tootin to be had.
In my local town there are some very good photographers with sites to back them up and then there are what can only be described as s
te. I get embarrassed for them and more so for the people that pay them, who's the mug though? The crap photographer charging for work, the punter that pays for it or me bhing about people paying for st I know I could do better but dont bother trying?Clearly there are good and bad photographers, as there are good and bad in all professions. Some people are lazy, some go the extra mile. Not wishing to jump to the defense of this photographer in question as the fact that the couple were heart broken speaks volumes but it isn't as simple as you state.
Sometimes one shot is all it takes. I personally hate snap happy crappy digital photography. Digital has made people lazy. I get lazy sometimes. It takes discipline to get the right shot. When doing reportage, and much wedding photography is like reportage, you have to be primed, ready to get the shot. Taking a zillion shots on a motor drive is leaving things to chance. When I do weddings I feel like a sniper, waiting patiently for that fleeting glance, that key moment that sums up the emotion, that captures the essence of that moment and the event itself. Quite often you know when you have the shot so taking a second is pointless. Other times you are so clear as to the set up you want that you need only take a few shots. I do take a minimum of two shots when doing groups, the larger the group the more shots, as you can guarantee someone will have their eyes shut or be pulling a face. Sometimes people blink every time the flash goes off so it might take six shots before you have one with their eyes open.
And being professional isn't about mega pixels or having the latest and greatest camera. It is about doing a job well and delivering the goods each and every time. What is photography? Well that is an awfully big question that you could write a huge book on. Taken at its most basic, it is the formation of an image using a simple lens, a dark box and light. You - the OP - showed quite clearly that it isn't all about the camera. It is about having a vision and being able to translate it into a two dimensional image. Creating a lasting image, one that people enjoy looking at, that has real significance is the real trick.
Sometimes one shot is all it takes. I personally hate snap happy crappy digital photography. Digital has made people lazy. I get lazy sometimes. It takes discipline to get the right shot. When doing reportage, and much wedding photography is like reportage, you have to be primed, ready to get the shot. Taking a zillion shots on a motor drive is leaving things to chance. When I do weddings I feel like a sniper, waiting patiently for that fleeting glance, that key moment that sums up the emotion, that captures the essence of that moment and the event itself. Quite often you know when you have the shot so taking a second is pointless. Other times you are so clear as to the set up you want that you need only take a few shots. I do take a minimum of two shots when doing groups, the larger the group the more shots, as you can guarantee someone will have their eyes shut or be pulling a face. Sometimes people blink every time the flash goes off so it might take six shots before you have one with their eyes open.
And being professional isn't about mega pixels or having the latest and greatest camera. It is about doing a job well and delivering the goods each and every time. What is photography? Well that is an awfully big question that you could write a huge book on. Taken at its most basic, it is the formation of an image using a simple lens, a dark box and light. You - the OP - showed quite clearly that it isn't all about the camera. It is about having a vision and being able to translate it into a two dimensional image. Creating a lasting image, one that people enjoy looking at, that has real significance is the real trick.
I think the problem with wedding photography is that the good ones are really good and worth the money, but then again there are some that still charge a lot and are absolutely awful. I don't know how some of them get away with crap shot after crap shot, but they do, I'm amazed some are still in business.
Is it just a supply and demand issue? Not enough good photographers to go about?
Is it just a supply and demand issue? Not enough good photographers to go about?
Bob_Defly said:
I think the problem with wedding photography is that the good ones are really good and worth the money, but then again there are some that still charge a lot and are absolutely awful. I don't know how some of them get away with crap shot after crap shot, but they do, I'm amazed some are still in business.
Prices range from £300 to £3,000+ so you'd expect massive variability in abilities and results. The cheaper end are usually people with regular day jobs earning some extra cash - digital has of course made this much easier. However if you can earn your living doing it, then you can't be so awful. So one test might be to ask 'Is it your living?' For my part, it is. I find it endlessly fascinating and challenging and love doing it.ETA: However it does seem that 'wedding photographer' carries a certain stigma, a certain 'Divison 4' quality. I see myself as a people photographer; the fact they're getting married is a bonus
Edited by Simpo Two on Tuesday 6th January 11:25
Simpo Two said:
It's interesting how people sg off wedding photographers, then decide to become wedding photographers...
We hired a pro photographer for our wedding many years ago.g off wedding photographers, then decide to become wedding photographers...It was a partnership business with a number of guys in it and they were absolutely brilliant.
As part of the service they took you off to a ruined church and took you through what poses were flattering, how to make it look like you actually like your other half in a picture and more that I forget. On the day they were unobtrusive during the proceedings and efficient during the picture taking.
The results were, to our untrained eyes I admit, absolutely great.
They weren't cheap but they were so, so worth it.
In comparison a guy who took studio shots for a family re-union was s
t...and the crappy results spoke for themselves. No attention to detail at all.When booking a photographer check out their portfolio. If it's as excellent as some of the work on here they're probably worth booking.
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