The Fujifilm FinePix F200EXR

[Simpo Two]

For some time I've been half-looking for a new compact. However I've always been deterred by the pixel density - I just know the performance is going to be disappointing.

The Fujifilm FinePix F200EXR is interesting. Fuji started well by having a larger sensor than usual (hurrah!), but then undid it by putting 12Mp on it (boo!), but then introduced two 6Mp shooting modes, (1) for high DR (2) for low light (hurrah!)

It's not in the shops yet but I'll be following its progress with inteest.

[VxDuncan]

Simpo Two said:

For some time I've been half-looking for a new compact. However I've always been deterred by the pixel density - I just know the performance is going to be disappointing.

The Fujifilm FinePix F200EXR is interesting. Fuji started well by having a larger sensor than usual (hurrah!), but then undid it by putting 12Mp on it (boo!), but then introduced two 6Mp shooting modes, (1) for high DR (2) for low light (hurrah!)

It's not in the shops yet but I'll be following its progress with inteest.

Ditto. If it's any good at all it will possibly be the perfect compact...
- Bigger than normal compact sensor with only 6MP for high iso (wahoo!)
- Sensible zoom, limited range to keep the quality, but crucially goes down to 28mm
- Optical IS
- Full manual and aperture priority modes!
- Well respected face detection ( probably the best way to focus a compact)
- Sensible size

Just hope the lens is fast and you can adjust the in camera noise reduction/sharpening. Suppose RAW is too much to ask?

Seems it will be $399 in the US. Bu@@er.

[SamHH]

Does using turning down the resolution have the same effect as having a lower res sensor in the first place? I hadn't thought so. Fuji made a camera a while back that was recommended for its low noise. I think it was called F30 or something like that.

[VxDuncan]

SamHH said:

Does using turning down the resolution have the same effect as having a lower res sensor in the first place? I hadn't thought so. Fuji made a camera a while back that was recommended for its low noise. I think it was called F30 or something like that.

Depends how it's done. I think the idea with this (if it's the same as previous Fuji sensors) is that it has a mix of large sensitive phtosites and smaller less sensitive sites, that way getting a larger dynamic range. It's my assumption that this sensor is the same, but switches off the smaller sites,leaving lots of bigger pixels.

Basically noise is a function of pixel density - the reason why the previous F series Fujis were so good is they didn't use massive pixel counts, and had a larger sensor to start with.

[Cabinet Enforcer]

VxDuncan said:

SamHH said:

Does using turning down the resolution have the same effect as having a lower res sensor in the first place? I hadn't thought so. Fuji made a camera a while back that was recommended for its low noise. I think it was called F30 or something like that.

Depends how it's done. I think the idea with this (if it's the same as previous Fuji sensors) is that it has a mix of large sensitive phtosites and smaller less sensitive sites, that way getting a larger dynamic range. It's my assumption that this sensor is the same, but switches off the smaller sites,leaving lots of bigger pixels.

Basically noise is a function of pixel density - the reason why the previous F series Fujis were so good is they didn't use massive pixel counts, and had a larger sensor to start with.

The different size photosites were only used on the DSLRS, the compacts used the hexagonal photosites with downsampled interpolation, this plus the larger than usual photosite size gave them their noise advantage.

The new sensor is native 12mp but for low noise averages 2 6mp exposures (basically the same as downsampling to reduce noise though I think possibly more effective) and for DR does a simple HDR image from 2 6MP images at different exposures (think this is a sensitivity based trick).
It's nothing fundamentally different or new, it's all just implemented seamlessly in a P+S, I still think there is another quantum leap to be made in imaging, though it would be very interesting to see all of the fujis tricks implemented in a FF DSLR, maybe sonys next model will be 30mp with a 15mp HDR low noise mode

[Simpo Two]

Cabinet Enforcer said:

maybe sonys next model will be 30mp with a 15mp HDR low noise mode

Just a 15Mp 'HDR low noise mode' would be fine. In fact I'd be happy with a 10Mp 'HDR low noise mode', and I'll put the extra pixels on eBay

[VxDuncan]

Cabinet Enforcer said:

The new sensor is native 12mp but for low noise averages 2 6mp exposures (basically the same as downsampling to reduce noise though I think possibly more effective)

If that's true, then this thing should blow everything else out of the water. Ignoring the "fixed" noise for a second (dead pixels etc), the average of two exposures hould half the random noise (twice the signal). I'm guessing it's gunna be pretty good...

[Cabinet Enforcer]

VxDuncan said:

Cabinet Enforcer said:

The new sensor is native 12mp but for low noise averages 2 6mp exposures (basically the same as downsampling to reduce noise though I think possibly more effective)

If that's true, then this thing should blow everything else out of the water. Ignoring the "fixed" noise for a second (dead pixels etc), the average of two exposures hould half the random noise (twice the signal). I'm guessing it's gunna be pretty good...

I'm not so sure, to half the noise I'm pretty sure you need to quarter the resolution, however it should still be better than the competition, since fuji was already better with noise before.
What will be interesting is if fuji have managed to wrap all of this up in solid enough patents, if so we should see some real innovation from the rest to try and catch up.

[VxDuncan]

Cabinet Enforcer said:

VxDuncan said:

Cabinet Enforcer said:

The new sensor is native 12mp but for low noise averages 2 6mp exposures (basically the same as downsampling to reduce noise though I think possibly more effective)

If that's true, then this thing should blow everything else out of the water. Ignoring the "fixed" noise for a second (dead pixels etc), the average of two exposures hould half the random noise (twice the signal). I'm guessing it's gunna be pretty good...

I'm not so sure, to half the noise I'm pretty sure you need to quarter the resolution, however it should still be better than the competition, since fuji was already better with noise before.
What will be interesting is if fuji have managed to wrap all of this up in solid enough patents, if so we should see some real innovation from the rest to try and catch up.

Ah, I was refering to the averaging of two exposures, so in terms of signal to noise ratio if the signal is the same across both exposures (and lets hope it is!) then if the noise is random you should get 1/2 the noise. However I have no idea how the averaging works, presumably they take two exposures at the same time, each using half the pixels? In that case the benefits may not be quite so straightforward (additional heating across the sensor, additional address lines etc). Think I should go away and do some reading up before speculating any further.

What I do know is I need to start saving.