No idea how much to charge for time!
Discussion
Hi everyone, hope your all ok on a particularly nice evening!
I'm here because I have a dilemma, and one that has been going on for quite some time! I have no idea where to even begin in terms of charging clients. I have done numerous jobs now but feel it is time to crack down on an actual realistic fee, one of the things holding me back in charging a high fee is that clients seem to expect less of me, being a student. I have now left and feel like there is no time like the present! I now have another event this sunday which involves me taking images of a cricket game, only around 20-30 images required and I feel like I can use this as a starting point. How about a starters rate per hour?
Any information, advice, tips from experience (or estimation for that matter!) would be so greatly appreciated!
Many Thanks,
Leighton
I'm here because I have a dilemma, and one that has been going on for quite some time! I have no idea where to even begin in terms of charging clients. I have done numerous jobs now but feel it is time to crack down on an actual realistic fee, one of the things holding me back in charging a high fee is that clients seem to expect less of me, being a student. I have now left and feel like there is no time like the present! I now have another event this sunday which involves me taking images of a cricket game, only around 20-30 images required and I feel like I can use this as a starting point. How about a starters rate per hour?
Any information, advice, tips from experience (or estimation for that matter!) would be so greatly appreciated!
Many Thanks,
Leighton
andy-xr said:
Why not charge on results then, rather than time spent shooting if you're not comfortable?
Having said that I think your results should be more of a reason why you should or shouldnt charge rather than whether you're a full time/part time student
Thing is, im confident, its just that clients aren't, that being said however it proves your point of charging with results, samples etc but even then, how much? Having said that I think your results should be more of a reason why you should or shouldnt charge rather than whether you're a full time/part time student
Cheers,
L
andy-xr said:
What are you giving them as output? Prints I'd presume?
From the initial sounds of it, you're not going to be retiring from this one, but if you like the idea of being published and you're covering your costs I'd personally be happy enough with that (as an amateur)
Normally it's a CD with the images on which adds an entirely new perspective on things, given that I am then handing copyright over which again bumps up the price. From the initial sounds of it, you're not going to be retiring from this one, but if you like the idea of being published and you're covering your costs I'd personally be happy enough with that (as an amateur)
Nolar Dog said:
Are you specifically stating/are they requesting copyright as handing a CD of images over does not mean copyright leaves you automatically.
Ah right, I thought that by handing over the file without explicitly saying that they i still retained copyright, they got it. Good to know that is not the case. Cheers
Pretty straighforward I'd have thought? Work out an hourly rate for a living wage, Tax, NI, insurance, liability insurance, equipment costs plus business costs & overheads and charge by that rate. Cricket match hours + travel to/from @ £0.50 per mile + cost of materials (CD's etc) + processing/editing time. To be honest, I doubt a local cricket club could afford to pay you a realistic fee?
Why on a CD?
Why on a CD?
Leighton.
I offer this as advice with the very best intensions in mind, so please take it that way.
I would suggest that you never hand copyright over. What happens is you suddenly find that you have a picture in your archives and it is worth a lot of money (IE the next Fred West playing polo with Prince Charles). You sell the picture only to be done for breach of copyright for a picture you have taken.....
You should always retain your copyright and issue 'licence to use' subject to payment being made in full. You then need to set out what the T&C's are at the time of quoting which will form part of a contract.
Working as a professional photographer you will be looking at two sets of law; Copyright and contractual law. One can have a knock on affect with the other.
May I ask where you were a Photography Student? and did they cover copyright as part of the course? Did they give you any advice in how you should conduct business?
The reason I ask is because I have been a professional photographer for a number of years and at one point I employed a couple of other photographers. I interviewed a number of graduates who were frankly commercially unemployable as photographers. I also recently looked into what would be required to be able to teach photography at colleges having had over 20 years at the sharp end of the business. I was horrified at what I saw.
Now here comes the hard bit. You might be the next person to be voted the best photographer in the world. But I guess at this early stage in your career you might have to wait a while for this to happen.
I would advise you look at it this way. Contact a number of local photographers that operate in the field of photography that you plan to trade in. Find out what they charge and look at their work (view their websites etc) work out what the lowest and highest charges are and work out where you fit in the the greater scheme of things with the level of photography you can provide.
If you are starting out and have limited equipment and no client base. I don't see how you could compete with or against a photographer with years of experience and equipment what will enable him to get pictures you couldn't.
For example; your cricket match. If a sports photographer with a Canon 600mm f4 lens and a Canon 1Ds Mk111 and ten years of experience charges, say £ 300 for the day and provides pictures that are good enough to grace the back pages of national newspapers. I don't see how you could charge the same if say you only have a Canon D40 and an 80-200mm lens and can't supply the the same images. The market will dictate your fees and if you get repeat business.
If you see your future as a professional photographer I feel that you should give a great amount of thought to how you are going to run your business. I would say making it as a professional photographer is very hard and you have to be a good photographer to start with. Once you have achieved that, then being a good photographer is only 10% of being a successful professional photographer.
I see an number of people I know who have a keen interest in photography and are capable of taking a good picture, think that being a pro photographer is a walk in the park. Now that everyone seem to have a digital camera, I am astounded at how may people think that making the conversion from amateur to pro is easy. Recently I helped out at a pro camera dealers where I get my equipment from. I was shocked at some of the people who claimed to be earning a living from photography and how little they knew. I would suspect that they are making some money on the side, but not a pro living.
Colleges these days are not preparing students for the real world and there are very few jobs out there. Must pro photographers are self employed. Now that you have your qualification I would suggest that you find a good advertising studio / portrait & wedding business / press agency (Depending on what field of photography you plan to enter) and do some real work experience or get a juniors position. Within six months you will have forgotten what the college has taught you and you will have learnt what a college could never teach you. You will learn far more about taking pictures than you could have imagined, you will learn all about dealing with clients, the business aspect of being a photographer, copyright, what you can reasonably charge for work, how to get work, how to keep clients and to deal with people.
But in short; as an answer to your question if you are only supplying 20-30 images and it would take you all day to get that many acceptable images against a pro who could get that in say an hour, does your full day rate equate to a pro's hourly rate?
Sorry I can't give you a fixed price, but hopefully I have answered an much bigger question that you have not yet asked!
In relation to this posting:
A good advertising photographer may charge Say £ 1000 a day plus Exes. So you are now looking at say £ 2050.00 for the job (Not that many advertising photographers have a 600mm lens).
Would your client pay this?
A freelance local press photographer working for a regional weekly paper will be on less than £ 100 a day.
Is this really financially acceptable to live on? I would say no! But then they are quite possibly recently out of college and still learning their trade, building up a portfolio and trying to build a better client base
As for usage rights I would agree that you would need to agree that at the very beginning and be mindful that they might want a fairly extensive licence to use (IE: Website/Press Release and Match Program) and won't be paying as much as you would like.
I offer this as advice with the very best intensions in mind, so please take it that way.
I would suggest that you never hand copyright over. What happens is you suddenly find that you have a picture in your archives and it is worth a lot of money (IE the next Fred West playing polo with Prince Charles). You sell the picture only to be done for breach of copyright for a picture you have taken.....
You should always retain your copyright and issue 'licence to use' subject to payment being made in full. You then need to set out what the T&C's are at the time of quoting which will form part of a contract.
Working as a professional photographer you will be looking at two sets of law; Copyright and contractual law. One can have a knock on affect with the other.
May I ask where you were a Photography Student? and did they cover copyright as part of the course? Did they give you any advice in how you should conduct business?
The reason I ask is because I have been a professional photographer for a number of years and at one point I employed a couple of other photographers. I interviewed a number of graduates who were frankly commercially unemployable as photographers. I also recently looked into what would be required to be able to teach photography at colleges having had over 20 years at the sharp end of the business. I was horrified at what I saw.
Now here comes the hard bit. You might be the next person to be voted the best photographer in the world. But I guess at this early stage in your career you might have to wait a while for this to happen.
I would advise you look at it this way. Contact a number of local photographers that operate in the field of photography that you plan to trade in. Find out what they charge and look at their work (view their websites etc) work out what the lowest and highest charges are and work out where you fit in the the greater scheme of things with the level of photography you can provide.
If you are starting out and have limited equipment and no client base. I don't see how you could compete with or against a photographer with years of experience and equipment what will enable him to get pictures you couldn't.
For example; your cricket match. If a sports photographer with a Canon 600mm f4 lens and a Canon 1Ds Mk111 and ten years of experience charges, say £ 300 for the day and provides pictures that are good enough to grace the back pages of national newspapers. I don't see how you could charge the same if say you only have a Canon D40 and an 80-200mm lens and can't supply the the same images. The market will dictate your fees and if you get repeat business.
If you see your future as a professional photographer I feel that you should give a great amount of thought to how you are going to run your business. I would say making it as a professional photographer is very hard and you have to be a good photographer to start with. Once you have achieved that, then being a good photographer is only 10% of being a successful professional photographer.
I see an number of people I know who have a keen interest in photography and are capable of taking a good picture, think that being a pro photographer is a walk in the park. Now that everyone seem to have a digital camera, I am astounded at how may people think that making the conversion from amateur to pro is easy. Recently I helped out at a pro camera dealers where I get my equipment from. I was shocked at some of the people who claimed to be earning a living from photography and how little they knew. I would suspect that they are making some money on the side, but not a pro living.
Colleges these days are not preparing students for the real world and there are very few jobs out there. Must pro photographers are self employed. Now that you have your qualification I would suggest that you find a good advertising studio / portrait & wedding business / press agency (Depending on what field of photography you plan to enter) and do some real work experience or get a juniors position. Within six months you will have forgotten what the college has taught you and you will have learnt what a college could never teach you. You will learn far more about taking pictures than you could have imagined, you will learn all about dealing with clients, the business aspect of being a photographer, copyright, what you can reasonably charge for work, how to get work, how to keep clients and to deal with people.
But in short; as an answer to your question if you are only supplying 20-30 images and it would take you all day to get that many acceptable images against a pro who could get that in say an hour, does your full day rate equate to a pro's hourly rate?
Sorry I can't give you a fixed price, but hopefully I have answered an much bigger question that you have not yet asked!
In relation to this posting:
dfen5 said:
Pretty straighforward I'd have thought? Work out an hourly rate for a living wage, Tax, NI, insurance, liability insurance, equipment costs plus business costs & overheads and charge by that rate. Cricket match hours + travel to/from @ £0.50 per mile + cost of materials (CD's etc) + processing/editing time. To be honest, I doubt a local cricket club could afford to pay you a realistic fee?
Why on a CD?
Cricket match lasts all day, 9am to 5pm (1x Hour Lunch) = 7x Hours + processing and editing time + Milage at 50p + CD + Postage etc. (I would say that post processing time is equal to time spent photographing the event, this now mean you are on 14 hours)Why on a CD?
A good advertising photographer may charge Say £ 1000 a day plus Exes. So you are now looking at say £ 2050.00 for the job (Not that many advertising photographers have a 600mm lens).
Would your client pay this?
A freelance local press photographer working for a regional weekly paper will be on less than £ 100 a day.
Is this really financially acceptable to live on? I would say no! But then they are quite possibly recently out of college and still learning their trade, building up a portfolio and trying to build a better client base
As for usage rights I would agree that you would need to agree that at the very beginning and be mindful that they might want a fairly extensive licence to use (IE: Website/Press Release and Match Program) and won't be paying as much as you would like.
Edited by Snapper7 on Saturday 30th May 00:19
Edited by Snapper7 on Saturday 30th May 18:03
Leighton.
I offer this as advice with the very best intensions in mind, so please take it that way.
I would suggest that you never hand copyright over. What happens is you suddenly find that you have a picture in your archives and it is worth a lot of money (IE the next Fred West playing polo with Prince Charles). You sell the picture only to be done for breach of copyright for a picture you have taken.....
You should always retain your copyright and issue 'licence to use' subject to payment being made in full. You then need to set out what the T&C's are at the time of quoting which will form part of a contract.
Working as a professional photographer you will be looking at two sets of law; Copyright and contractual law. One can have a knock on affect with the other.
May I ask where you were a Photography Student? and did they cover copyright as part of the course? Did they give you any advice in how you should conduct business?
The reason I ask is because I have been a professional photographer for a number of years and at one point I employed a couple of other photographers. I interviewed a number of graduates who were frankly commercially unemployable as photographers. I also recently looked into what would be required to be able to teach photography at colleges having had over 20 years at the sharp end of the business. I was horrified at what I saw.
Now here comes the hard bit. You might be the next person to be voted the best photographer in the world. But I guess at this early stage in your career you might have to wait a while for this to happen.
I would advise you look at it this way. Contact a number of local photographers that operate in the field of photography that you plan to trade in. Find out what they charge and look at their work (view their websites etc) work out what the lowest and highest charges are and work out where you fit in the the greater scheme of things with the level of photography you can provide.
If you are starting out and have limited equipment and no client base. I don't see how you could compete with or against a photographer with years of experience and equipment what will enable him to get pictures you couldn't.
For example; your cricket match. If a sports photographer with a Canon 600mm f4 lens and a Canon 1Ds Mk111 and ten years of experience charges, say £ 300 for the day and provides pictures that are good enough to grace the back pages of national newspapers. I don't see how you could charge the same if say you only have a Canon D40 and an 80-200mm lens and can't supply the the same images. The market will dictate your fees and if you get repeat business.
If you see your future as a professional photographer I feel that you should give a great amount of thought to how you are going to run your business. I would say making it as a professional photographer is very hard and you have to be a good photographer to start with. Once you have achieved that, then being a good photographer is only 10% of being a successful professional photographer.
I see an number of people I know who have a keen interest in photography and are capable of taking a good picture, think that being a pro photographer is a walk in the park. Now that everyone seem to have a digital camera, I am astounded at how may people think that making the conversion from amateur to pro is easy. Recently I helped out at a pro camera dealers where I get my equipment from. I was shocked at some of the people who claimed to be earning a living from photography and how little they knew. I would suspect that they are making some money on the side, but not a pro living.
Colleges these days are not preparing students for the real world and there are very few jobs out there. Most pro photographers are self employed. Now that you have your qualification I would suggest that you find a good advertising studio / portrait & wedding business / press agency (Depending on what field of photography you plan to enter) and do some real work experience or get a juniors position. Within six months you will have forgotten what the college has taught you and you will have learnt what a college could never teach you. You will learn far more about taking pictures than you could have imagined, you will learn all about dealing with clients, the business aspect of being a photographer, copyright, what you can reasonably charge for work, how to get work, how to keep clients and to deal with people.
But in short; as an answer to your question if you are only supplying 20-30 images and it would take you all day to get that many acceptable images against a pro who could get that in say an hour, does you full day rate equate to a pro's hourly rate?
Sorry I can't give you a fixed price, but hopefully I have answered a much bigger question that you have not yet asked!
In relation to this posting:
A good advertising photographer may charge Say £ 1000 a day plus Exes. So you are now looking at say £ 2050.00 for the job (Not that many advertising photographers have a 600mm lens).
Would your client pay this?
A freelance local press photographer working for a regional weekly paper will be on less than £ 100 a day.
Is this really financially acceptable to live on? I would say no! But then they are quite possibly recently out of college and still learning their trade, building up a portfolio and trying to build a better client base
As for usage rights I would agree that you would need to agree that at the very beginning and be mindful that they might want a fairly extensive licence to use (IE: Website/Press Release and Match Program) and won't be paying as much as you would like.
I offer this as advice with the very best intensions in mind, so please take it that way.
I would suggest that you never hand copyright over. What happens is you suddenly find that you have a picture in your archives and it is worth a lot of money (IE the next Fred West playing polo with Prince Charles). You sell the picture only to be done for breach of copyright for a picture you have taken.....
You should always retain your copyright and issue 'licence to use' subject to payment being made in full. You then need to set out what the T&C's are at the time of quoting which will form part of a contract.
Working as a professional photographer you will be looking at two sets of law; Copyright and contractual law. One can have a knock on affect with the other.
May I ask where you were a Photography Student? and did they cover copyright as part of the course? Did they give you any advice in how you should conduct business?
The reason I ask is because I have been a professional photographer for a number of years and at one point I employed a couple of other photographers. I interviewed a number of graduates who were frankly commercially unemployable as photographers. I also recently looked into what would be required to be able to teach photography at colleges having had over 20 years at the sharp end of the business. I was horrified at what I saw.
Now here comes the hard bit. You might be the next person to be voted the best photographer in the world. But I guess at this early stage in your career you might have to wait a while for this to happen.
I would advise you look at it this way. Contact a number of local photographers that operate in the field of photography that you plan to trade in. Find out what they charge and look at their work (view their websites etc) work out what the lowest and highest charges are and work out where you fit in the the greater scheme of things with the level of photography you can provide.
If you are starting out and have limited equipment and no client base. I don't see how you could compete with or against a photographer with years of experience and equipment what will enable him to get pictures you couldn't.
For example; your cricket match. If a sports photographer with a Canon 600mm f4 lens and a Canon 1Ds Mk111 and ten years of experience charges, say £ 300 for the day and provides pictures that are good enough to grace the back pages of national newspapers. I don't see how you could charge the same if say you only have a Canon D40 and an 80-200mm lens and can't supply the the same images. The market will dictate your fees and if you get repeat business.
If you see your future as a professional photographer I feel that you should give a great amount of thought to how you are going to run your business. I would say making it as a professional photographer is very hard and you have to be a good photographer to start with. Once you have achieved that, then being a good photographer is only 10% of being a successful professional photographer.
I see an number of people I know who have a keen interest in photography and are capable of taking a good picture, think that being a pro photographer is a walk in the park. Now that everyone seem to have a digital camera, I am astounded at how may people think that making the conversion from amateur to pro is easy. Recently I helped out at a pro camera dealers where I get my equipment from. I was shocked at some of the people who claimed to be earning a living from photography and how little they knew. I would suspect that they are making some money on the side, but not a pro living.
Colleges these days are not preparing students for the real world and there are very few jobs out there. Most pro photographers are self employed. Now that you have your qualification I would suggest that you find a good advertising studio / portrait & wedding business / press agency (Depending on what field of photography you plan to enter) and do some real work experience or get a juniors position. Within six months you will have forgotten what the college has taught you and you will have learnt what a college could never teach you. You will learn far more about taking pictures than you could have imagined, you will learn all about dealing with clients, the business aspect of being a photographer, copyright, what you can reasonably charge for work, how to get work, how to keep clients and to deal with people.
But in short; as an answer to your question if you are only supplying 20-30 images and it would take you all day to get that many acceptable images against a pro who could get that in say an hour, does you full day rate equate to a pro's hourly rate?
Sorry I can't give you a fixed price, but hopefully I have answered a much bigger question that you have not yet asked!
In relation to this posting:
dfen5 said:
Pretty straighforward I'd have thought? Work out an hourly rate for a living wage, Tax, NI, insurance, liability insurance, equipment costs plus business costs & overheads and charge by that rate. Cricket match hours + travel to/from @ £0.50 per mile + cost of materials (CD's etc) + processing/editing time. To be honest, I doubt a local cricket club could afford to pay you a realistic fee?
Why on a CD?
Cricket match lasts all day, 9am to 5pm (1x Hour Lunch) = 7x Hours + processing and editing time + Milage at 50p + CD + Postage etc. (I would say that post processing time is equal to time spent photographing the event, this now mean you are on 14 hours)Why on a CD?
A good advertising photographer may charge Say £ 1000 a day plus Exes. So you are now looking at say £ 2050.00 for the job (Not that many advertising photographers have a 600mm lens).
Would your client pay this?
A freelance local press photographer working for a regional weekly paper will be on less than £ 100 a day.
Is this really financially acceptable to live on? I would say no! But then they are quite possibly recently out of college and still learning their trade, building up a portfolio and trying to build a better client base
As for usage rights I would agree that you would need to agree that at the very beginning and be mindful that they might want a fairly extensive licence to use (IE: Website/Press Release and Match Program) and won't be paying as much as you would like.
Edited by Snapper7 on Saturday 30th May 00:19
Edited by Snapper7 on Saturday 30th May 18:02
Edited by Snapper7 on Saturday 30th May 18:04
Your “problems” are ones that many of us face when moving photography from a hobby to a business. I did this a few years ago and it evolved quite a bit of work and research.
With regard to agreeing rates for the job, this can be particularly daunting. I just treat it like any other business negotiation, with the hope that both parties will feel they’ve got a good deal. It’s the opening bids that are difficult. When asked what I will charge, I usually respond “What are your standard rates?” Expect a figure below what they are willing to pay! If they press you, start high and work down. You have to decide what you think you’re worth (based on experience and skills). You might want to quote say £50/hour plus expenses, but make it clear that you are willing to negotiate a “package” price. This would be “all in” and include say 20 images supplied on CD.
You also need to agree how the images will be licensed. This includes the media to be used, the time period and territories for the licence and any exclusivity arrangements. All this then needs to be confirmed in writing on a Commission Estimate, preferably “branded” to reflect your website/business card design.
If you get the contract, when you submit the images you also supply a Licence to Use with your invoice. The invoice should make it clear that the materials cannot be used until the invoice is paid in full.
I’d be perfectly happy to supply you with examples of the paperwork I use. This is on the understanding that I make no guarantees as to its suitability! It does reflect the results of my recent research into the issues though.
All that said, I certainly have agreed to commissions at a lower price that I thought appropriate. That’s business. A few “lost leaders” could well produce repeat business at more appropriate rates and is all good experience.
Good Luck …
With regard to agreeing rates for the job, this can be particularly daunting. I just treat it like any other business negotiation, with the hope that both parties will feel they’ve got a good deal. It’s the opening bids that are difficult. When asked what I will charge, I usually respond “What are your standard rates?” Expect a figure below what they are willing to pay! If they press you, start high and work down. You have to decide what you think you’re worth (based on experience and skills). You might want to quote say £50/hour plus expenses, but make it clear that you are willing to negotiate a “package” price. This would be “all in” and include say 20 images supplied on CD.
You also need to agree how the images will be licensed. This includes the media to be used, the time period and territories for the licence and any exclusivity arrangements. All this then needs to be confirmed in writing on a Commission Estimate, preferably “branded” to reflect your website/business card design.
If you get the contract, when you submit the images you also supply a Licence to Use with your invoice. The invoice should make it clear that the materials cannot be used until the invoice is paid in full.
I’d be perfectly happy to supply you with examples of the paperwork I use. This is on the understanding that I make no guarantees as to its suitability! It does reflect the results of my recent research into the issues though.
All that said, I certainly have agreed to commissions at a lower price that I thought appropriate. That’s business. A few “lost leaders” could well produce repeat business at more appropriate rates and is all good experience.
Good Luck …
leightonjames said:
I now have another event this sunday
It sounds like they've already booked you and given you a brief. What was said at the time? If no payment was mentioned, they could be expecting a freebie.18 years of self-employment allows me to conjure up these responses:
'Oh we didn't think you'd charge us...'
'But you're only a student...'
'But it's all digital so it's free isn't it...'
'There's no budget, we were hoping...'
Let's hope I'm wrong and I hope you manage to extract some loot, because you're worth something
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