The Horses Mouth

[PointandShoot]

Hi all, been lurking on Pistonheads for a few years now and thought it was about time I threw my two penith in. To give you a bit of background I studied photography in Newcastle for 4 years, graduating in 1995 and have been a full time pro now for well over 10 years, shooting both studio and location work based in the North East of England. In a nutshell a regional jobbing photographer, with no specialist areas, taking whatever comes my way. Except weddings and babies, i draw the line at those, although there is good money to be made, its not for me. My client base varies from local and national agency work, threw to small/medium businesses and Plc's.
So why start posting now, although there are a few pros on here information is sporadic and can sometimes seem like a closed shop, with advice from well meaning amateurs lacking accuracy. So if your on the cusp of turning your hobby into a profession, want to know what life is like as a pro, what you can charge, what's expected of you, how to contact clients, present yourself and your work or just want me to critique your images before exposing them to potential employers ill be honest and open, no matter how trivial the question ask away.
Im not afraid to put myself in the firing line, checkout what i do and where i work, www.chrisauldphotography.com , constructive criticism is always welcome.

[Scott330ci]

Hi Chris

Nice site.

So how much do you charge an hour then

[PointandShoot]

What i can get away with.

[Scott330ci]

PointandShoot said:

What i can get away with.

Very good.

How did you make the merge from full time day job to "Pro photographer"

Did you ever freelance? How did you get into it?

How many freebies did you give away before you started charging?

When did you know people would pay for what you can offer?

Do you still ever look at your work and think, "Thats rubbish" as we all are our own worse critics?

Thanks

Scott

[PointandShoot]

Starting out in photography is the trickiest bit, the way i did it was to work part time in a supermarket whilst at college, once graduated kept the part time evening job on and tried to build up a small client base during the day whilst financially supporting myself with stacking shelves.

Freelance is a very generic term, id still class myself now as a freelancer, even though im a limited company. The old saying its not what you know its who you know, the way to get into it is contacts, put yourself about, network go to the right events make friends with the right people, not other photographers, people who have the power to commission you.

Freebies the old favourite, when your starting out its the only way in to some places and even then its not a guarantee to regular work, you just have to hope the art director has morals and will return the favour, some dont and take what they can, you soon wise up to them. Even today i still do what i call speculative work for agencies who i have an established relationship with.

Yes i still produce work i wouldnt want my name associated with, when i was starting out another photographer gave me a bit of advice, "You get two good jobs a year and the rest is ste" how true.

Edited by PointandShoot on Tuesday 14th September 10:10

[nick_bbb]

Hello

How much time as a percentage do you spend actually taking photos (shooting and processing) and how much time do you spend running your business (sales, marketing, finance, networking, etc)?

Edited by nick_bbb on Tuesday 14th September 11:08

[PointandShoot]

Nick

The vast majority of my time is spent at my computer, doing admin, post production and chasing business, for every hour i shoot i probably spend another two in pre and post production.

Chris

[itsnotarace]

Without wishing to thread crap on the OP, I will chuck my 2p in as well.

Scott330ci said:

How did you make the merge from full time day job to "Pro photographer"

I still do my day job and only work at weekends. I guess you could call me a semi pro but I don't really see it that way as my photography earns me (on average) £800 a month (plus expenses) for 4 days work. If I wanted to give up my day job I could do it full time, but I would have to do weddings to even come close to what I earn in my day job and that's not an avenue I wish to pursue.

Scott330ci said:

Did you ever freelance? How did you get into it?

All the work I do is freelance sports, which is great because most of the sporting events are held at weekends. Occasionally I will need to book a couple of days annual leave from my day job if I get an assignment that takes me out of the country, but my employers are pretty sympathetic and I can normally book time off at short notice if required. I got into it by sending speculative emails to agencies.

Scott330ci said:

How many freebies did you give away before you started charging?

Zero

Scott330ci said:

When did you know people would pay for what you can offer?

After my first paid assignment and my first publish in a glossy magazine

Scott330ci said:

Do you still ever look at your work and think, "Thats rubbish" as we all are our own worse critics?

Yes of course, but it doesn't matter what you personally think of them, the clients are paying the bills and if they think your work is substandard they will not call you again. Repeat business is king. Be ultra reliable and produce consistently good work to their spec and they will call you over other less reliable photographers.

[nick_bbb]

Thanks Chris, sounds about the same as me, I always figured that going full time would require much more time sales/marketing type work.

I have thought about going full time, problem is I have a well paid day job. I've done a fair bit of work with magazines but it can be over a year from shooting to getting paid and at £250 a shoot I'd have to work with a hell of a lot of magazines to get enough work. I'd really prefer to be shooting more art work rather than commercial too but that's a whole different propasition with even less chance of earning a steady living.

[PointandShoot]

Regarding what itsnotarace said, the best bit of advice the OP gave was, be ultra reliable. Business is a simple proposition, turn up on time, do what you said you were going to do and charge what you quoted simple.

Nick, with regards magazine work, budgets even on the largest glossy are tight, very tight. The big money is in advertising and design based work, speaking from experience these areas are difficult to get into but once you have a foot in the door other avenues open up.

I can imagine its almost impossible leaving a steady job to take up commercial photography full time, it takes many years to get established let alone make a decent income.

Chris

[percymk4]

Hello

Very good information from everyone, thanks.

A few questions from me:
What kit do you use?
How many times are you turned down for a job in relation to being accepted?
Is it mainly a case of sending your work to possible clients and just waiting for replies? Or is it more about travelling to them, making appointments, and physically being there with your portfolio?
What was your first paid job?

Thanks again for all the advice, i'm leaving my current job on Saturday and hopefully i'll find another job back home, but im looking to do what a previous poster mentioned and do photography work mainly at weekends first.

[PointandShoot]

Hi, the kit i use at the minute is as follows, Canon Eos1DS Mklll , my spare is the Mkll, lenses are a follows, Canon 16-35mm f2.8, 24-70 F2.8 and 70-200 f2.8 plus a couple of speedlites. Lighting is Elinchrom rangers for location and studio work.
Im in the fortunate position where people approach me, so nine times out of ten ill get the job.
To get into a client you need to find out the right person to speak to, you then need to introduce yourself, normally through email, send them a teaser image to get them interested or a link to a site, then follow it up with another email or call to try and arrange an appointment, THEY WILL NOT CHASE YOU. Then take your portfolio round, on the subject of portfolios, it needs to look professional be concise and to the point, youll be lucky to get 5 minutes, and dont where a suit, you need to instill confidence into these people and convince them your the man for the job, most art directors are happy to see new people.

My first paid job came through the its not what you know its who you know route, it was some shots at an airshow for a local authority, never looked back since.

[Simpo Two]

I think POS would agree with me that you need several disciplines to make it work:

Sales and marketing ability (getting the work)
Photographic ability (doing the work)
Interpersonal ability (making sure people like working with you)
Administrative ability (running a business)

Unless you have all four, it won't last long.

[PointandShoot]

Simpo, very very true, i always say the most creative photographers never make it, as you often find they have very limited interpersonal skills. Its about building working relationships.

[Simpo Two]

And the reason why agencies have Creatives and Suits. Suits can't create and Creatives aren't safe near clients! But add them together and it works.

Edited by Simpo Two on Tuesday 14th September 14:02

[dibbly dobbler]

PointandShoot said:

with advice from well meaning amateurs lacking accuracy

That's a nice way to join the PH photo forum - take a pop at 90% of the posters

Now tell me again about the interpersonal skills

[nick_bbb]

dibbly dobbler said:

PointandShoot said:

with advice from well meaning amateurs lacking accuracy

That's a nice way to join the PH photo forum - take a pop at 90% of the posters

Now tell me again about the interpersonal skills

LOL

Simpo's had a few moments with interpersonal skills on here too

[itsnotarace]

percymk4 said:

Hello

Very good information from everyone, thanks.

A few questions from me:
What kit do you use?
How many times are you turned down for a job in relation to being accepted?
Is it mainly a case of sending your work to possible clients and just waiting for replies? Or is it more about travelling to them, making appointments, and physically being there with your portfolio?
What was your first paid job?

Thanks again for all the advice, i'm leaving my current job on Saturday and hopefully i'll find another job back home, but im looking to do what a previous poster mentioned and do photography work mainly at weekends first.

As I shoot sports, my kit list is crop sensor only. D300 + MB10 grip, D200 + MB-D200 grip (backup body). Nikkor 17-55 2.8, Nikkor 70-200 2.8 VR with the latter being my bread and butter lens. Plus a decent monopod with a good tilt/swivel head & a decent GoreTex jacket. Occasionally I will take a loan lens (Nikkor 300 or 400 2.8) from the agency if I need extra telephoto capability but I don't use them enough to warranty a purchase of my own. 70-200 2.8 is perfect for what I do and has paid for itself many times over.

I don't get turned down for jobs in that respect. I am lucky enough to have a bunch of regular clients that will call me when they want an assignment done. If I am already booked for the date they request then I will turn it down. My invoice payment terms are strictly 30 days, if clients repeatedly breach those terms then I will ditch the client and find a new one to take their place but otherwise I don't go looking for work per se. My photo managers/editors will often pass my work around within the industry so I find work comes looking for me more often than not.

My first paid job. Hmm umm. Bristol Half Marathon I think

Without wanting to discourage anyone, it's really not as glamorous a job as most people think it is - it's bloody hard work. A typical day for me will be something like:

Get up 4:30am. Get dressed and shove all the kit I prepared the previous day (charging batteries, formatting cards etc) in the car. Drive to the location. Carry heavy camera bag to chosen location which is invariably miles from available parking. Set up camera depending on light conditions and client spec request (image size/quality etc) and take a number of sample shots getting a decent background in to check everything is ok. Wait for whatever it is to start and then shoot away (remember this could mean standing in pouring rain for up to 8 hours). Try and squeeze in lunch if possible. Maybe move to a second / third location so that not all the shots look the same. Depending on the deadline I will either have to edit some shots and send them via FTP from the location via laptop/3G or I may come home and do it. Sometimes I will shoot with the clients memory cards and either post them back or drive them back myself again depending on the deadline.

Sometimes I am home mid afternoon but quite often I won't get back until very late. Really depends on the location of the shoot. Then when you are at home you need to make sure all the paperwork is done so that HMR&C don't arserape you on your self assesssment, and that you have filled in all mileages/hotel/expenses claim forms and kept receipts etc

In the winter it can be really nasty in the cold and rain, especially when you have been in one place for hours and your index (shutter release) finger stiffens up into a claw

[Simpo Two]

nick_bbb said:

Simpo's had a few moments with interpersonal skills on here too

The more money you spend the nicer I get

ETA: Ah, you mean Mr Nocturnal. Yes, a strange individual by all accounts.

Edited by Simpo Two on Tuesday 14th September 14:29

[nick_bbb]

Simpo Two said:

nick_bbb said:

Simpo's had a few moments with interpersonal skills on here too

The more money you spend the nicer I get