Finally changing over to digital...
Discussion
I've been away from photography for a good few years, mainly because of the cost of running a 35mm camera, but I need to get back in harness and get myself a DSLR. My current gear is Canon, an EOS10, 430EZ Speedlite, 28-80mm zoom, 75-300mm zoom, and a rather lovely 135mm Softfocus prime.
Because of a limited budget (£200 or thereabouts) I'm going to have to go second hand, and would ideally like a model suitable for an 'enthusiast'. I don't think a 1000D would cut the mustard, as I like to experiment and have lots of control. Quality counts for a lot as well. I've seen good condition 350Ds for sale at the right sort of price, but am wondering what other models would fit the bill.
There's a whole new area to learn as well, the whole post-production and editing thing, of which I know pretty much nowt. I know photoshop is damn expensive for the full version, but can you get decent, inexpensive software that will do a good job?
Because of a limited budget (£200 or thereabouts) I'm going to have to go second hand, and would ideally like a model suitable for an 'enthusiast'. I don't think a 1000D would cut the mustard, as I like to experiment and have lots of control. Quality counts for a lot as well. I've seen good condition 350Ds for sale at the right sort of price, but am wondering what other models would fit the bill.
There's a whole new area to learn as well, the whole post-production and editing thing, of which I know pretty much nowt. I know photoshop is damn expensive for the full version, but can you get decent, inexpensive software that will do a good job?
A quick look on eBay suggests that 1000Ds are a bit more than £200. The two cameras you can comfortably get for £200 are the 350D and 20D. They're from the same era and have very similar sensors, so there'll be little to choose between them on image quality. I think the level of controllability is very similar too (the same goes for the 1000D). The difference is the 20D is bigger and some of the functions that are controlled by menus on the 350D are controlled by buttons on the outside on the 20D. The 20D has a few other benefits like a faster continuous shooting rate and the sensor sensitivity can go to 3200 (vs 1600 with the 350D). You can use this web-page to compare the stats of various cameras: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sidebyside.asp
I guess you are aware that due to most digital camera sensors being smaller than 35mm film, your lenses will give you a narrower field-of-view? If you can get a 350D or 20D bundled with the kit lens (18-55mm), it might be worth it in order to re-gain the wide-angle.
As for software, there is some free proprietary like Google's Picasa that can do very basic editing. There is a 'copyleft' program called GIMP (and lots of variations of it) that replicates a lot of what Photoshop can do, but some people dislike the interface. Then there is the cut-down version of Photoshop called Photoshop Elements for about £60. Either GIMP or Photoshop Elements would probably suffice for most people. Finally, Canon cameras come bundled with a program called Digital Photo Professional that convert RAW files and can make various adjustments; it doesn't have things like layers and brushes which you will probably want from time-to-time though.
I guess you are aware that due to most digital camera sensors being smaller than 35mm film, your lenses will give you a narrower field-of-view? If you can get a 350D or 20D bundled with the kit lens (18-55mm), it might be worth it in order to re-gain the wide-angle.
As for software, there is some free proprietary like Google's Picasa that can do very basic editing. There is a 'copyleft' program called GIMP (and lots of variations of it) that replicates a lot of what Photoshop can do, but some people dislike the interface. Then there is the cut-down version of Photoshop called Photoshop Elements for about £60. Either GIMP or Photoshop Elements would probably suffice for most people. Finally, Canon cameras come bundled with a program called Digital Photo Professional that convert RAW files and can make various adjustments; it doesn't have things like layers and brushes which you will probably want from time-to-time though.
Edited by SamHH on Friday 17th December 11:49
Thank you SamHH, this is just the sort of info I was looking for! I've found it quite hard to find out which models are from which era, which has made comparisons quite difficult. Your link sounds like it will be extremely useful.
The 20D sounds good - I like larger cameras because I have quite large hands, and direct access buttons are definitely better than menus!
I was aware that there was a change in apparent focal length when using a 35mm lens on a digi body, but wasn't quite sure which way it went. So because the sensor doesn't cover the full area given by a 35mm lens it gives a slight telephoto effect, and a 135mm fl 35mm lens becomes say a 150mm lens when used with a digi body. Hmmm, I like using wide-angle, so will look for a kit lens with the body.
I can see I have a hell of a lot to learn on the software front - but learning is fun, especially when starting from a blank canvas! PS Elements sounds like the way to go.
Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions - you've been a big help.
The 20D sounds good - I like larger cameras because I have quite large hands, and direct access buttons are definitely better than menus!
I was aware that there was a change in apparent focal length when using a 35mm lens on a digi body, but wasn't quite sure which way it went. So because the sensor doesn't cover the full area given by a 35mm lens it gives a slight telephoto effect, and a 135mm fl 35mm lens becomes say a 150mm lens when used with a digi body. Hmmm, I like using wide-angle, so will look for a kit lens with the body.
I can see I have a hell of a lot to learn on the software front - but learning is fun, especially when starting from a blank canvas! PS Elements sounds like the way to go.
Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions - you've been a big help.
Schmeeky said:
Thank you SamHH, this is just the sort of info I was looking for! I've found it quite hard to find out which models are from which era, which has made comparisons quite difficult. Your link sounds like it will be extremely useful.
The 20D sounds good - I like larger cameras because I have quite large hands, and direct access buttons are definitely better than menus!
I was aware that there was a change in apparent focal length when using a 35mm lens on a digi body, but wasn't quite sure which way it went. So because the sensor doesn't cover the full area given by a 35mm lens it gives a slight telephoto effect, and a 135mm fl 35mm lens becomes say a 150mm lens when used with a digi body. Hmmm, I like using wide-angle, so will look for a kit lens with the body.
I can see I have a hell of a lot to learn on the software front - but learning is fun, especially when starting from a blank canvas! PS Elements sounds like the way to go.
Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions - you've been a big help.
Just to backup much of what has been said already...The 20D sounds good - I like larger cameras because I have quite large hands, and direct access buttons are definitely better than menus!
I was aware that there was a change in apparent focal length when using a 35mm lens on a digi body, but wasn't quite sure which way it went. So because the sensor doesn't cover the full area given by a 35mm lens it gives a slight telephoto effect, and a 135mm fl 35mm lens becomes say a 150mm lens when used with a digi body. Hmmm, I like using wide-angle, so will look for a kit lens with the body.
I can see I have a hell of a lot to learn on the software front - but learning is fun, especially when starting from a blank canvas! PS Elements sounds like the way to go.
Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions - you've been a big help.
I'd take a **D body over the ***D any time
The metal construction of the **D's (although not the new 60D) makes a huge difference to the whole feel of the camera. The extra buttons and LCD panels make this a no-brain choice imo.If you are looking at the 20D, might want to also look at the slightly younger 30D - its basically the same sensor but the body had some additional features such as:
-Spot meter
-Settings for 3fps and 5fps (the 20D has single frame and 5fps only)
-Larger frame buffer for sports use (20D will take 6 RAW files, 30D will take 11)
-ISO is visible at the bottom of the viewfinder when changing
-Larger rear screen.
Arguably there are no deal-breakers but lots of little improvements that might make it worth spending slightly more.
Full comparison with 20D (and review of the 30D) here - http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos30d/
Just for for info - the 'crop factor' doesn't apply to all SLRs, but most are effected to some extent. For Canon:
1.6x crop factor : 7D, **D, ***D, ****D (these cameras will take Canon EF-S lenses also)
1.3x crop factor : 1D
No crop factor : 1Ds and 5D (sensors are effectively the same size as 35mm film)
For wide angle shots it basically means there are a number of 10mm (non-fisheye) lenses available to get the same angle a 16mm lens on a 35mm film body would give
. There are popular models from Sigma, Canon, Tokina, etc.I'd certainly go for photoshop elements - its cheap (well, compared to full-fat photoshop
) and packed with lots of features. Though your used camera body might come with the Canon Digital Photo Professional CD... Its not wonderful software imo but it'd certainly do for a while if you wanted to spend more on the camera body. Hope this helps
Edited by flat-planedCrank on Friday 17th December 17:39
A big huge thank you to all you guys - I've just ordered an EOS 20D from MPBPhotographic. The http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sidebyside.asp website was extraordinarily useful, big thanks to SamHH for mentioning that.
The 20D is in excellent condition, and for a price of £219 I think it's a bit of a good deal. With a bit of luck it'll arrive tomorrow, and I can spend a happy weekend getting out there and learning how to use it!
The 20D is in excellent condition, and for a price of £219 I think it's a bit of a good deal. With a bit of luck it'll arrive tomorrow, and I can spend a happy weekend getting out there and learning how to use it!
Well, due to Parcel Farce living up to their name, my 20D arrived today. Late. But still, 
It was described in the ad as being Exc++, but it's better than that, it's really not far off being mint. Every little dodad that was in the box originally is there, including the cash-back vouchers for lenses and accessories - none of which have been used! Even the battery was fully charged! I think the previous owner looked after it, but barely used it.
My first impressions are dense, heavy, and solid. Nice ergonomics, and a quality feel to all the controls, which all seem to fall easily to hand (finger?) already. Focusing is quick and accurate, and the diamond pattern of focusing spots/sensors seems quite 'intelligent', picking out the relevant parts of the shot.
The only things I can nit-pick about are the viewfinder image and the screen on the back - both of which seem a tad small. And now having a wish list of other things to buy!
Firstly, and pretty much most importantly is getting a CF memory card!
Then there's an EF-S lens so I can get my wide-angles back, an E-TTL2 flash, and a vertical grip so it fits my hand better.
This is going to be expensive! At least I have some gear I can part-ex.
Anyone need a good 430EZ Speedlite or 28-80mm 3.5-5.6 USM lens?
It was described in the ad as being Exc++, but it's better than that, it's really not far off being mint. Every little dodad that was in the box originally is there, including the cash-back vouchers for lenses and accessories - none of which have been used! Even the battery was fully charged! I think the previous owner looked after it, but barely used it.
My first impressions are dense, heavy, and solid. Nice ergonomics, and a quality feel to all the controls, which all seem to fall easily to hand (finger?) already. Focusing is quick and accurate, and the diamond pattern of focusing spots/sensors seems quite 'intelligent', picking out the relevant parts of the shot.
The only things I can nit-pick about are the viewfinder image and the screen on the back - both of which seem a tad small. And now having a wish list of other things to buy!
Firstly, and pretty much most importantly is getting a CF memory card!
Then there's an EF-S lens so I can get my wide-angles back, an E-TTL2 flash, and a vertical grip so it fits my hand better.
This is going to be expensive! At least I have some gear I can part-ex.
Anyone need a good 430EZ Speedlite or 28-80mm 3.5-5.6 USM lens?
Schmeeky said:
My first impressions are dense, heavy, and solid. Nice ergonomics, and a quality feel to all the controls, which all seem to fall easily to hand (finger?) already. Focusing is quick and accurate, and the diamond pattern of focusing spots/sensors seems quite 'intelligent', picking out the relevant parts of the shot.
The only things I can nit-pick about are the viewfinder image and the screen on the back - both of which seem a tad small. And now having a wish list of other things to buy!
Grats on the 20d , a classic excelent body.The only things I can nit-pick about are the viewfinder image and the screen on the back - both of which seem a tad small. And now having a wish list of other things to buy!
Be carefull using Autofocus with all the points selected it will most frequently focus on the closest subject under any focus point, which often isnt the one you want.
If you select a single point focus then the little joystick will allow you to quickly move that around and a click on it will toggle between last point and center.
The viewfinder will be smaller than a full frame film body, one thing that does get better as you step up the product line. make sure its correctly adjusted with the diopter. BTW a 350D viewfinder is much worse!
The LCD is old tech and probably the stand out thing for showing age.
RobDickinson said:
Grats on the 20d , a classic excelent body.
Cheers Rob! I've only been 'playing' with it so far (no memory card!), but it feels like a quality piece of engineering and design, way better than my EOS10. RobDickinson said:
Be carefull using Autofocus with all the points selected it will most frequently focus on the closest subject under any focus point, which often isnt the one you want.
Point noted. I understand the sensor in the middle of the diamond pattern is a 'cross' type, and more sensitive/accurate than the sensors on the periphery. I tend to focus lock on my subject and recompose anyway, so that shouldn't be a major issue. I'm happy to be aware of it though. RobDickinson said:
If you select a single point focus then the little joystick will allow you to quickly move that around and a click on it will toggle between last point and center.
Ahh, useful! I've just tried it, but it didn't work. I'm thinking pilot error, and RTFM!RobDickinson said:
The viewfinder will be smaller than a full frame film body, one thing that does get better as you step up the product line.
You utter b
d, making me think how much nicer a 5D could be! 
RobDickinson said:
BTW a 350D viewfinder is much worse!
That just makes me feel my choice of a 20D was a good'un - when buying online and you can't have a feel/play to compare, and you sometimes just have to go on gut feeling. I have to admit to feeling a bit smug ATM, I've scored a cracking body for not much money!
But this wouldn't have happened without the help and direction of PHers, so big HUGE thanks for all the advice you guys have given and websites you've pointed me at. It's very much appreciated.
And I hope to post up some photos very soon!
markmullen said:
Enjoy your switch to digital, things like being able to vary the ISO mid-roll so to speak you'll find really useful and being able to review your shots instantly will make the transition much easier.
Cheers Mark! Switching ISO at will will be like witchcraft, like having an extra shutter to play with! Digital is going to be fun! Schmeeky said:
RobDickinson said:
If you select a single point focus then the little joystick will allow you to quickly move that around and a click on it will toggle between last point and center.
Ahh, useful! I've just tried it, but it didn't work. I'm thinking pilot error, and RTFM!Focus and recompose will work fine unless your using fast lenses in which case the shift will move the plane of focus and result in OOF pics.
You can also (and I recomend) split the AF/AE function of a half shutter press. leave automatic exposure on the shutter but move auto focus to the rear button , will be the '*' button on the back of the camera, this allows you to focus independandly of meetering/shooting, takes a little getting used to but well worth it.
Schmeeky said:
RobDickinson said:
If you select a single point focus then the little joystick will allow you to quickly move that around and a click on it will toggle between last point and center.
Ahh, useful! I've just tried it, but it didn't work. I'm thinking pilot error, and RTFM!RobDickinson said:
Camera needs to be in an active mode so you need to have very recently half pressed the shutter button for the joystick to work, and be in single point focus mode not all.
I think I'm doing it right - center focus point selected, half press, joystick to select off center point. Still no joy. Maybe it'll work when I'm less tired! And I've not even looked at the manual yet!RobDickinson said:
Focus and recompose will work fine unless your using fast lenses in which case the shift will move the plane of focus and result in OOF pics.
Luckily, I don't have any properly fast lenses, one less thing to worry about! RobDickinson said:
You can also (and I recomend) split the AF/AE function of a half shutter press. leave automatic exposure on the shutter but move auto focus to the rear button , will be the '*' button on the back of the camera, this allows you to focus independandly of meetering/shooting, takes a little getting used to but well worth it.
I set up my EOS10's custom functions to do this - having the two different locks independent makes things so much easier. I'll be doing the same with my 20. When I've read the book and find out how to actually do it! Schmeeky said:
RobDickinson said:
Camera needs to be in an active mode so you need to have very recently half pressed the shutter button for the joystick to work, and be in single point focus mode not all.
I think I'm doing it right - center focus point selected, half press, joystick to select off center point. Still no joy. Maybe it'll work when I'm less tired! And I've not even looked at the manual yet!1) The default method where you have to press the focus point selection button (the one at the top right on the rear of the camera) first, then you make the actual selection either by pushing the joystick in the desired direction or by scrolling through the focus point with one of the control wheels. Press the focus point selection button again or half-press the shutter release once you've chosen the right focus point.
2) A kind of 'direct-access' mode where you can select an individual focus point at any time by pushing the joystick. The focus point selection button is used to select all focus points.
3) The same as 2 but the joystick is substituted by the big control wheel.
You can change between the modes in the custom functions menu.
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