AA Recovery... Clutch Snag
Discussion
The recovery man has just dropped my S2 and I back home (even helped push her into the garage which was a nice touch) following my 'breakdown' a couple of hours ago.
Problem: 'Floppy' clutch pedal. Absolutely zero resistance felt when depressing the clutch. It does return to normal position thanks to spring return but car is in neutral and will not engage any gear selection.
Cause: Problem arose following the rapid application of brake and clutch pedal (diet-emegency stop) when 4x4 in front decided to make a late turn and slammed on his anchors. Following 'smartish' stop, unable to select 1st gear to pull away and had to free-wheel clear of the road.
There is fluid in the clutch reservoir. It's not 'toppers' but is visible and above the minimum level maker.
The rod between the pedal and clutch master cylinder (perpendicular by a swivel hinge to the clutch pedal) is still attached and moves in the correct sense when pedal is depresses/released. The pedal box obviously obscures the point at which this should enter the master cylinder so I can only assume that it is still connected properly.
I have, as yet, been unable to get underneath the car to determine if the actuator rod from the slave cylinder shows any movement when the pedal is operated. I know that lack of movement or limited movement could mean that bleeding is required. I am inclined to believe that something has broken following the rapid application of clutch pedal though - is it likely that the clutch system could allow in so much air as to render it unusable when it has previously been operating absolutely fine?
I was hoping someone may be able to shed some light on what could be the cause/root of my fault. I'll be looking for a set of ramps/axle stands in the meantime though I think!
Thanks in advance,
David
Problem: 'Floppy' clutch pedal. Absolutely zero resistance felt when depressing the clutch. It does return to normal position thanks to spring return but car is in neutral and will not engage any gear selection.
Cause: Problem arose following the rapid application of brake and clutch pedal (diet-emegency stop) when 4x4 in front decided to make a late turn and slammed on his anchors. Following 'smartish' stop, unable to select 1st gear to pull away and had to free-wheel clear of the road.
There is fluid in the clutch reservoir. It's not 'toppers' but is visible and above the minimum level maker.
The rod between the pedal and clutch master cylinder (perpendicular by a swivel hinge to the clutch pedal) is still attached and moves in the correct sense when pedal is depresses/released. The pedal box obviously obscures the point at which this should enter the master cylinder so I can only assume that it is still connected properly.
I have, as yet, been unable to get underneath the car to determine if the actuator rod from the slave cylinder shows any movement when the pedal is operated. I know that lack of movement or limited movement could mean that bleeding is required. I am inclined to believe that something has broken following the rapid application of clutch pedal though - is it likely that the clutch system could allow in so much air as to render it unusable when it has previously been operating absolutely fine?
I was hoping someone may be able to shed some light on what could be the cause/root of my fault. I'll be looking for a set of ramps/axle stands in the meantime though I think!
Thanks in advance,
David
The clutch slave cylinder pushes on one end of a bar which pivots and operates the clutch at the far end. The arm is prone to wear at the pivot. If it wears far enough the pivot can actually push right through the arm, producing the symptoms you describe. I suppose it makes sense that the final 'letting go' would happen when you stamp suddenly on the pedal.
The slave cylinder pushes the rod (on the right) which pivots the release arm (on the left).
The little pin on the end of the push rod goes through a hole in the arm which is normally "key hole" shaped because Ford intended it to be used with a clutch cable. This one has been modified because the pin and ball shape behind it wear badly.
As Peter suggests perhaps yours has punched through, dropped out or broken in some way?
The little pin on the end of the push rod goes through a hole in the arm which is normally "key hole" shaped because Ford intended it to be used with a clutch cable. This one has been modified because the pin and ball shape behind it wear badly.
As Peter suggests perhaps yours has punched through, dropped out or broken in some way?
A picture paints a thousand words - thank you for clarifying the possible cause. I will get my S up onto axle stands to investigate. If my slave cylinder push rod has punched through the release arm then am I right in thinking there should still be lateral movement in the rod (if the master and slave cylinders still function correctly) when I depress the pedal, albeit with no resistance?
Finally, I have found through this forum the part number for the S2 slave cylinder (Lucas 74066169). Does anyone know the part numbers and suitable source of the rod and release arm?
David
Finally, I have found through this forum the part number for the S2 slave cylinder (Lucas 74066169). Does anyone know the part numbers and suitable source of the rod and release arm?
David
Right, I have some conducted some further diagnosis and have some photos of the slave cylinder. This picture is as I found it i.e. the rubber shroud was halfway along the push rod thread rather than in its proper place.
I have been underneath watching the cylinder/rod while the Mrs depresses the clutch pedal - there is absolutely no movement at the slave cylinder end - rod or release arm.
With no basis for comparison I wondered if it looks like my rod is too far through the keyhole shaped hole in the release arm? This is it slightly close up
The rod feels very very tight when I attempted to move it by hand. I am not sure i it is jammed or if is correct that I cannot move it. The fact that there is no movement when the clutch pedal is operated leads me to think that the snag may be further 'upstream' although that doesn't explain the incorrectly fitted rubber shroud - any ideas?
Thanks,
David
I have been underneath watching the cylinder/rod while the Mrs depresses the clutch pedal - there is absolutely no movement at the slave cylinder end - rod or release arm.
With no basis for comparison I wondered if it looks like my rod is too far through the keyhole shaped hole in the release arm? This is it slightly close up
The rod feels very very tight when I attempted to move it by hand. I am not sure i it is jammed or if is correct that I cannot move it. The fact that there is no movement when the clutch pedal is operated leads me to think that the snag may be further 'upstream' although that doesn't explain the incorrectly fitted rubber shroud - any ideas?
Thanks,
David
It looks to me that the push rod has been forced through the clutch release lever. From Philpot's photo, the push rod shoud sit in the socket welded into the keyhole - yours is pushed through and has probably jammed at full extension. Since it has gone through the lever, the push rod has also travelled further than normal thus pushing off the slave cylinder rubber boot.
GB
GB
here is an old post with the picture of the worn pushrod
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
HTH
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
HTH
oldgeebee said:
From Philpot's photo, the push rod shoud sit in the socket welded into the keyhole
GB
That socket (an old nut) is my modification, standard is just a keyhole shaped hole which is why the pushrod wears so badly, looks like it gave way under pressure!GB
I have a spare release arm somewhere but its a gearbox out job to change (and that ain't fun), maybe you can find a decent welder who can do something with it in situ?
I'm away for a week from tomorrow morning so can't post till my return should you want it
Thanks guys, seems to be a logical diagnosis that the rod has punched through the keyhole and pulled the rubber boot from the slave cylinder at the same time. I'm going to drain the fluid, remove the slave cylinder and try to remove the jammed rod from the release lever - then see what I'm left with regarding serviceable parts.
I really don't want to be removing the gearbox to replace the clutch release lever so if the key-shaped hole has indeed become enlarged then I may look at getting a skilled welder to modify it in place as per phillpot's suggestion. Alternatively, I suppose it could be possible to enlarge the male-end of the rod in this case so that it doesn't go too far through the hole. This way I could simply give the part to a welder to have the work done rather than towing the car in..... do you see any potential snags with this?
Thanks again,
David
I really don't want to be removing the gearbox to replace the clutch release lever so if the key-shaped hole has indeed become enlarged then I may look at getting a skilled welder to modify it in place as per phillpot's suggestion. Alternatively, I suppose it could be possible to enlarge the male-end of the rod in this case so that it doesn't go too far through the hole. This way I could simply give the part to a welder to have the work done rather than towing the car in..... do you see any potential snags with this?
Thanks again,
David
For some time I have been trying to sort out why my clutch only worked on the bottom couple of inches of pedal movement I've bleed it right through, no better. Now reading this thread I checked my clutch push rod and guess what? It's gone through the release arm and pressing on the adjuster nuts at the bottom of the push rod. The rod pushes back into the cylinder easily and gives about 25mm of play from the release arm. Has anyone found a fix for this without having to remove the gearbox and clutch in order to repair the hole in the release arm. Would a larger end on the push rod work? any suggestions. Thanks for all your help I couldn't run my S2 without this brilliant forum.
Cr*p drawing but it’s attempting to show a ball & socket joint. The female part is fixed to the release arm through the existing hole with a nut and the male ball part is connected to the slave cylinder rod with a post nut, so it works like a turnbuckle linkage to give the adjustment. Don’t know if anything like this exists but if it does, maybe this might be the answer?
I suppose it might be possible to take the slave off and reassemble with a good stout washer that fits over the smaller diameter of the pushrod but won't slide over the larger diameter. It's not a great solution, and you'll probably find it needs looking at again in another ten years or so. Or, next time you have the gearbox out, get the arm repaired with an insert to take the wear. I thought the welded-in nut looked like a good practical solution.
v8s4me said:
Never mind the joint did you look at the supplier contact 
I really like the idea of modifying the rod with a ball/socket joint such as this. Certainly as a temporary fix until the gearbox is next out and the release plate can be replaced/modified as per the tried and tested 'welded nut' method.
When I get the push rod out and make the required measurements, I'm planning on purchasing one of these:
http://www.wixroyd.com/en/catalog/standard-parts/r...
I bought one of the £10 land rover slave cylinders so will need a pipe re-flaring anyhow. I hope the same garage will be able to fit the female end of the joint onto the rod at the same time.
When I get the push rod out and make the required measurements, I'm planning on purchasing one of these:
http://www.wixroyd.com/en/catalog/standard-parts/r...
I bought one of the £10 land rover slave cylinders so will need a pipe re-flaring anyhow. I hope the same garage will be able to fit the female end of the joint onto the rod at the same time.
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