Help Please

[mep12345]

Ok, xmas bank holiday I went to start the car and it wouldn't start like it normally does, I could get it to start with use of the throttle and could keep it running if I kept the revs up, but there was a very clear misfire and as soon as revs were allowed to drop off the engine died. As I didn't have time then I put the car back in the garage and got around to looking at it today. I had assumed it would be moisture in the ignition system given the weather in the SW at that time. However today I have the same issue and cannot seem to resolve it, the symptoms are below and everyone's two penneth would be welcomed while I read the books and try to suss this out.

The car will not start without use of the throttle it turns over well but does not fire. It will start with the throttle and will continue to run if revs are held high but runs very roughly sounding like a bad misfire, when it first start I get a lot of smoke from the exhaust (assume petrol burning in the exhaust as I also get a petrol smell then too). If revs are allowed to drop back the car dies. Here is what I have done.

1. Cleaned and dried the large connector on the offside of the engine in the main engine loom
2. Cleaned and dried the distributor ignition module connector
3. Cleaned and dried in the distributor
4. Changed the rotor arm and distributor cap for my spares
5. Changed the ignition leads (Had new ones ready to go on anyway)
6. Changed coil for my spare
7. Cleaned the AFMs
8. Removed the throttle pot connection and tried to run with it disconnected - no change so reconnected rather than replaced with spare
9. Cleaned the engine to chassis earth (the others are definately fine otherwise the starter motor wouldn't turn so well)
10. Checked the connections at the ECU
11. Taken out, cleaned and gap checked all spark plugs - all were slightly blacker than I would have liked, but all gaps were good and all are in good condition (changed 4 months ago). All were also wet with fuel so I have ruled out fuelling as the issue.

My intent is to read the books properly now (I have the diagnostic article) and also to get a set of HT spark testers (the type that go in the HT lead and flash with the spark) to continue to chase but does anyone have any ideas on where I can go next?

As a mechanical engineer I hate bleedin' electrics

Thanks

Mark

[tozerman]

You seem to have covered everything really, what I would do is try changing the throttle pot (if you have a spare) as it only takes a minute and then check the pot voltage is within spec, not saying you will get anywhere but it's what I would do, good luck.

Cheers.....Tony..

[Mr Clifford]

Does it have a burnt out yellow connector in the ignition ?

[mep12345]

Mr Clifford said:

Does it have a burnt out yellow connector in the ignition ?

No removed before my ownership

[Gerald-TVR]

phillpot has my old Star Tester which might help!!!

[mep12345]

Thanks Norm, will talk to mike if necessary

[Elfit]

Hi Mark

Sorry to hear of what must be an infuriating problem.

All I can add is check fuses/relays (and that they are fully pushed home). I had a problem with that once.

Best of luck Tim

[Spathodus77]

Not my forte, but could the idle speed control valve cause this? When you cleaned the AFMs did you also clean the electrical connections?

Ralph

[mep12345]

Spathodus77 said:

Not my forte, but could the idle speed control valve cause this? When you cleaned the AFMs did you also clean the electrical connections?

Ralph

Ralph,

Possible, but I believe the ISCV works with the air fuel mixture rather than the ignition system and there is a clear misfire, hence the reason I haven't swapped this as I am convinced the fuelling isn't to blame. The only reason I really touched the AFMs was because it is easy to do and get at, yes did clean connections though.

Mark

Edited by mep12345 on Saturday 14th January 16:54

[tvrgit]

On your No 8 - have you tried running it with both the ISCV and the Throttle pot disconnected? One of them (can't remember which one so disconnect both!) puts the ecu into "service" mode and bypasses all the elctronics - so if it runs fine like that, then the problem is ecu / sensor related. If it is still the same, then the problem is the "traditional" ignition components, and given what you have looked at, I would next (a) run the car in the dark and look for signs of tracking, and if not that, then (b) look at the ignition module on the distributor.

[mep12345]

Andrew,

Thanks, I thought it was throttle pot for service mode hence my comment on that, but I'll try ISCV as well. The ignition module was my thought now as well, but that ain't easy to access. Have bought some more contact cleaner/dispersant and will have another go tomorrow and also ordered a set of test leads to check HT spark so will work on it when they arrive if not sorted, my next choice then is to check compression incase I've dropped a valve but think that unlikely.

Didn't think of dark running so may try as well, just it is difficult as my boys won't help and I can't get it to idle for long enough to get round the car for a look without use of the throttle (I need 6 foot arms to turn key and use throttle in engine bay!!)

May well end up in a garage but I hate doing that as (a bit like reading instructions and asking for directions) it reduces the size of my manhood

Mark

[v8s4me]

This is probably no help at all as mine’s a V8S, but when I had similar problems it was finally traced to a faulty power supply to the ECU and a broken connection on the tune resistor. Good luck and hope you’re able to preserve your manhood.

[orange_dodo]

Is the wiring to the ignition module okay? I had lots of problems when mine fell onto the exhaust manifold, it didn't like that one bit!

It's obviously an ignition problem, are only a few cylinders firing or are they all firing but not everytime they should if you see what I mean.

If it is the latter, i.e. all the cylinders are sometimes firing and sometimes not then it must be a problem at or before the distributor. That means ECU, wiring, ignition module, or dizzy.

ECU is pretty bullet proof so very unlikely its that (unless it got wet)

dizzy is unlikely as you've changed the cap and rotor arm and the rest of the dizzy is simple and mechanical

ignition module could go, mine did.

wiring is always first on my list of suspects, I don't trust it at all!

I don't know if that helps at all, its a 1am brain dump after a few beers!

[mep12345]

Been through the whole system again today and used my fault code reader with no further luck. FCR said ECU had no faults registered and wiggle test didn't show anything either, hence I'm coming to the thought now that it is the ignition module or a wiring fault in the low voltage supplies to this that hasn't shown on wiggle test. Wiring also looks good so most likely the module.

This brings me to my next question, I think I have found the rightignition module available online but can't see the part number on mine or find it on the alternative parts lists. I think it is an intermotor 15310 and most research points to this but has anyone changed one recently and still have the receipt with the part number on (orange-dodo with your comment I'm hoping you can answer this)

[orange_dodo]

mep12345 said:

This brings me to my next question, I think I have found the rightignition module available online but can't see the part number on mine or find it on the alternative parts lists. I think it is an intermotor 15310 and most research points to this but has anyone changed one recently and still have the receipt with the part number on (orange-dodo with your comment I'm hoping you can answer this)

Yep, I can confirm that is the one. I replaced mine with that exact module. The one that came off was a motor craft one and looked exactly the same, I've attached a picture of my old one below for posterity.



Beware though, the bolts are a right royal PITA to undo. You'll have to take the dizzy out and it isn't a nice one that can only go back in in 1 or 2 ways so you have to mark it up carefully. The bolts are recessed quite deeply into the housing and are imperial although I can't remember what the size was. I went through every long reach socket in the toolbox at work until I found one that fit.

Don't forget the heat-sink paste either, it needs a good amount on the back of the module.

[ketvrin]

You can get away without removing the dissy, by loosening it then rotating it until you can access those little bolt heads... they are a PITA and do need a long reach socket (which I borrowed so I dont remember what size but its arount 5mm (?) I cut slots in the bolt heads so I could use a screwdriver from then on, if you are lucky you might find yours are slotted too.

One other thought, before you get a new module... try the small hose between the fuel regulator and the throttle (just veside the TP) mine was split and letting air in and it obviously caused some bad signals to the ECU as my enging would not run unless revved... I cut half an inch off the pipe and re-connected it, job done! the cheapest repair I ever did and it cured what I thought was catastrophic engine failure...

good luck

K

[mep12345]

Still working on this and have come across a further issue, whilst trying to do the compression test I disconnected the coil LT side as per the granada manual instructions and since then the fuel pump runs continuously when the key is in the "run position" and recircs the fuel back to the tank via the pressure control valve. It didn't do this before, just pressurrised the line and then stopped. My thoughts are that inadvertantly I've either disturbed something or shorted something.

I haven't properly investigated yet as my back is killing me, so has anyone else come across this before, I suspect a short on the relay.

Update on previous work:

Ignition module changed with no effect (you can do this without disturbing or removing the distributor by using a deep reach socket and a palm ratchet - the socket is 5.5mm and needs to be thin walled or you have to file it to a smaller diameter like I did to get it in the hole)

Spark testers used and good spark proven at all plugs

ISCV checked and ok

Ketvrin's suggestion of hose checked and did have a split but repair made no difference.

Compression test not going well as I can't get a reading above 50psi on any cylinder but as this is common across all I suspect the tester being fauty rather than the cylinders to have all failed (borrowing another tester next weekend)

Anyway - manhood is shrinking and as such I've called my friendly mechanic to help next weekend - hopefully this will work

Mark

[GreenV8S]

mep12345 said:

I disconnected the coil LT side as per the granada manual instructions and since then the fuel pump runs continuously when the key is in the "run position" and recircs the fuel back to the tank via the pressure control valve. It didn't do this before, just pressurrised the line and then stopped. My thoughts are that inadvertantly I've either disturbed something or shorted something.

Struggling to think what you might have disturbed. The fuel pump should be controlled by the ECU and the coil wiring is only involved in keeping the pump running when the engine is turning over. Does it stop when you pull the fuel pump relay?

[ketvrin]

Hi Mark

are you sure the pump is actually pressurising the rail ? its not just running and failing to get pressure up is it ? either due to being goosed or perhaps the fuel regulator is the problem and is just sending all of the fuel back to the tank ?? Have you checked the fuel rail pressure ?

K

If your manhood is shrinking mate you should get some thermal underpants

[Road2Ruin]

mep12345 said:

Still working on this and have come across a further issue, whilst trying to do the compression test I disconnected the coil LT side as per the granada manual instructions and since then the fuel pump runs continuously when the key is in the "run position" and recircs the fuel back to the tank via the pressure control valve.

Mark

This all sounds very similar to a problem I had last year. It started by having problems under load, jumping and missfiring, but would be ok at idle! Then the fule pump started to run continously and it would not start at all. Eventually it was traced to an electrical fault to the fule pump relay. Where the wiring enters the car through the bulk head into the passenger footwell water had got it and caused a problem. I can't be more specific as the garage fixed it not me. Since that has been fixed it has now been running normally again.