Spring Rates (again)

[bugsy]

Hi Y'all
We have had much debate recently about the spring rates on the S series, some go harder on the front and some the reverse S2/3 only and Gaz and Pete Humphreys disagree with this hard front set up.

Well at last, I'm going to test the science and on 11/7/05 Steve Guglielmi of Tuscan race fame is going to spend the day on my car with different settings on springs etc and I will publish the report from Steve.


>> Edited by bugsy on Monday 27th June 09:20

[GarryM]

That should be extremely useful to S owners. Could you do the same with a Griffith please?

Incidentally, how long does it take to change springs on adjustable dampers (ie ones where you can unwind the spring seat to release load on the spring with no need for spring compressors)? I've just had mine changed and was a bit surprised at the bill. If you are going to try various springs I can't imagine it will take a very long time.

[bugsy]

GarryM said:

That should be extremely useful to S owners. Could you do the same with a Griffith please? Incidentally, how long does it take to change springs on adjustable dampers (ie ones where you can unwind the spring seat to release load on the spring with no need for spring compressors)? I've just had mine changed and was a bit surprised at the bill. If you are going to try various springs I can't imagine it will take a very long time.

I would have thought 2 hours to change springs and roughly set ride height, then an hour to check alignment and fine tune ride height.

The Griffith/Chimaera is pretty much sorted on springs.
either 300/325lb rear and 375/400lb for a reasonably firm fast road set up.
The reason the S needs looking at, is because it's trailing arm on the back and has a heavier roll bar.
We will see.

>> Edited by bugsy on Monday 27th June 10:18

[TOPTON]

Jack up the car, take the wheel off. Unbolt shocker- 1 bolt at the top and 1 at the bottom. Unwind spring seat and take off spring. Replace in reverse order. 10 minutes a corner?. Time may be taken up on levelling the car once all four corners are done. If the car is on a lift then this shouldn't take long either.

[GarryM]

Hmm, I guess £280 labour would seem a lot to you too then! (in fairness that did include changing the starter motor relay and another small item but probably only half to one hour on that). The "set up" was to put the spring seats back where they were before (with the lower rate springs) so I've had to lower it quite a bit all round myself.

I tried 400F/300R and am very pleased. Tempted to try harder again but not unless I learn to change springs myself!

[TOPTON]

Guess you been in the trap of "its a TVR so we charge you double" I put 350rear 300 front on my S2. Certainly better than before. Wife says she now gets a stiff ride

[GreenV8S]

TOPTON said:

10 minutes a corner?

I would reckon closer to half an hour per corner, and that's having had plenty of practice and cracking on with it. It's amazing how long these little jobs take.

[bugsy]

GreenV8S said:

TOPTON said: 10 minutes a corner? I would reckon closer to half an hour per corner, and that's having had plenty of practice and cracking on with it. It's amazing how long these little jobs take.

Yes, I reckon 3 hours with alignment and I stress the word ALIGNMENT, get it done or you could be wasting your money on shocks and springs.

>> Edited by bugsy on Monday 27th June 19:58

[TOPTON]

Guess thats why I won't pay anyone to do my jobs for me, they would take too long and charge too much. 10 minutes was a guestimate. I would be p...ed if a garage took longer than (and I will be nice) say 1 1/2 hours to do all four. Bearing in mind they didnt level it.

[19560]

To try to minimise the time between changes how about start with 300lbs/in on the front and 225 on the rear then 375 on the rear leaving the front alone. Change the rear again for 300 all round and then change the front for 400, leaving 300 on the rear. That give you a stiffer front, a stiffer rear, a neutral and a V8 set up and you only have to change three pairs of springs.

[bugsy]

19560 said:

To try to minimise the time between changes how about start with 300lbs/in on the front and 225 on the rear then 375 on the rear leaving the front alone. Change the rear again for 300 all round and then change the front for 400, leaving 300 on the rear. That give you a stiffer front, a stiffer rear, a neutral and a V8 set up and you only have to change three pairs of springs.

Thanks Jon, I hadn't thought much about exactly how we would do it and that looks like a very well thought out plan.
BTW anybody who wants to try out the set-up should drop in to S Club heaven and nick my car for a test drive.

>> Edited by bugsy on Tuesday 28th June 20:06

[bugsy]

Well you would you believe it, there is a distict possability that everybody is right.
Pete Humpreys has just completed a full calculation that supports a normal road setup with harder rear than front, a fast road with same springs front and rear and a fast road/track set up with harder springs on the front. THIS ONLY APPLIES TO THE S2/3 because the S1 has a lighter roll bar.
This is what Steve G will test for us.

Steve Coombs has tested the fast road/track settings that PH has come up with using Gaz shocks and is really happy, so that proves one calculation.

>> Edited by bugsy on Wednesday 29th June 01:00

[19560]

So is there a market for selling S2/3 ARBs to S owners? I don't know but aren't the S3c/4/4c the same suspension set up as the S2/3? Or do they start to move into V8S territory?

[clive f]

this sounds really good Bugsy,look forward to the results of the test, and the stronger springs on the rear seem to make sense, also can you e-mail me on the avo,Gaz debate.

[bugsy]

19560 said:

So is there a market for selling S2/3 ARBs to S owners? I don't know but aren't the S3c/4/4c the same suspension set up as the S2/3? Or do they start to move into V8S territory?

Good point Jon but at the moment I'm catering for the majority S2/3/3C, if anybody with an S1 asks I will find out what difference the lighter arb will make.
S4's are as rare as rocking horse poo, so I'll cross that bridge if I come to it but I think they are the same set up as a V8S ie 22mm arb but without the power oversteer.

>> Edited by bugsy on Friday 1st July 18:55

[gefopsman]

Mine is an S1 works really well with 400F AND 350R. The lighter ARB probably explains the roll I get under heavy cornering which may improve with a stronger bar. I had already thought about possible upgrades in this area but had not realised it coul be so straight forward.

From memory, even with VERY strong springs on S2/3, bodyroll was still a problem.

I would not suggest going more than 350rears for road use, as although the handling may imporve on smooth surfaces, so will the effects of the traction loss caused by bumps and defects in the surface. I have a roundabout near me which can be taken very quickly now providing I miss the poor road repairs. If I catch a rear wheel in the dip, it makes for an exciting moment.

I can imagine that this could get expensive if you were caught out.

I will be taking Longers out for a ride soon so he may give some feedback on the handling.

As for the Gaz shocks, they seem good to me, lots of adjustment for a range of springs. I have settled on 14 clicks front and 10 rear.

I would be interested to see the settigns used by others.

[bugsy]

I don't aggree about body roll on the S3 with strong springs Steve because my old S3 had strong springs and Avos and hardly rolled at all and if I parked my 17stone on any quarter it never moved a mm

[GreenV8S]

It depends what you're doing with it. Mine has much higher spring rates so much less body roll, but it still rolls a fair bit on corners. From inside it feels like a go-kart but from outside you can see it has several degrees of roll on.

[Hoover33]

GreenV8S just said it..... set up all depends on what you are doing with the car.

Everyone should assess what they want to use the car for, and not go with because everyone else has gone for it...... Its your car and Its you driving it.... so set-up for yourself to get maximum smiles

My tuppence worth

[GreenV8S]

Hoover33 said:

set-up for yourself to get maximum smiles

Very true. There's always a trade-off between ride comfort, handling and outright grip. For most people the best compromise will be a relatively soft setup, giving excellent ride comfort and docile handling. Going stiffer can yield more grip under ideal conditions, and sharper handling. The price is that ride quality will suffer, the car will be less forgiving to drive and you may actually end up with *less* grip when conditions are not ideal.