Fell At First Hurdle

[WonkyGibbon]

Well.

Got the car up on the axle stands and got underneath with the idea of getting the starter motor off.

It seems to be held on by two bolts - one a 13mm the other a 17mm - at opposite corners of it's diameter and from opposite directions.

Broke the 13mm socket trying to get one off - went easy on the 17mm one as a result and didn't get that off either.

All very dissapointing :(

Anyway - you people what do this sort of thing regular like - and are presumably a heap more butch than myself - how do you usually solve this sort of a problem ? Ideas I came up with include :
- Use better sockets - these were a cheap set I got from halfords years ago - I'm sure I can buy tougher ones.
- Tap the bolts lightly with a hammer to jolt loose (could only reach one for this anyway)
- Get a longer handle for the 1/2 inch drive so as to get some more nyeeeeeeaarrgh on it - it's only a bit longer than a hands length at the mo'.

All advice greatfully received :)

Thanks,

WG

[oldred]

WG

Yes all of the above, esp get a longer wrench and better quality sockets.

[Colin Blues2]

For more leverage get a torque wrench they are usually about twice as long. You'll need one to do it up again properly anyway. The top bolt I had to use a long and short extension together so that I could get the handle on and be able to put some leverage on it.

I would get some better sockets, I do't think I ever managed to break a socket, they must have been something like a 1/4inch drive? Definitely need a 1/2inch drive for this type of work.

The impact sockets are pretty good as they have the hex rather the ridges on the inside so they are less likely to round of the heads (pretty pricey though). Not tried those ones that claim to grip the sides of the nuts rather than the cornes but if they do what they say they should be pretty good.

Colin

[jons_s3]

Have you tried using some penetrating oil on the bolts? - that can help. Put some on,leave it a while to soak in and try again! I usually find impact wrenches are pretty good at getting these things off too if access allows.

[GreenV8S]

Bihex sockets are more convenient to use than single hex, but can't transmit as much torque. A good quality bihex that fits the bolt well will transfer enough torque to shear the bolt. The problem comes when the socket isn't a good fit or the bolt is worn, it's easy to round off the corners with a bihex. In this situation a single hex socket will grip better because it grips the whole face not just the corners. If you're only applying the load by a short bar you won't be generating much torque anyway, the problem is probably cheap and nasty sockets and not enough leverage.

[Wildfire]

jons_s3 said:

Have you tried using some penetrating oil on the bolts? - that can help. Put some on,leave it a while to soak in and try again! I usually find impact wrenches are pretty good at getting these things off too if access allows.

I was going to suggest an impact driver also. You could try and improvise by tapping the bolts before you try and loosen them.

[WonkyGibbon]

Colin Blues2 said:

For more leverage get a torque wrench they are usually about twice as long. You'll need one to do it up again properly anyway. The top bolt I had to use a long and short extension together so that I could get the handle on and be able to put some leverage on it. I would get some better sockets, I do't think I ever managed to break a socket, they must have been something like a 1/4inch drive? Definitely need a 1/2inch drive for this type of work. The impact sockets are pretty good as they have the hex rather the ridges on the inside so they are less likely to round of the heads (pretty pricey though). Not tried those ones that claim to grip the sides of the nuts rather than the cornes but if they do what they say they should be pretty good. Colin

Thanks Guys. The sockets were half inch drive but Chrome Vanadium - so probably not that strong. Impact wrenches look the biz I have to say - and as a red blooded male I totally want one of those but that said probably wouldn't get into the space available - so stumpy wins ! So a Torque Wrench is probably the way forward. In terms of indestructable sockets are there any particular makes or materials that are good / bad that I should be aware of ?

Colin - you mentioned the Torque Wrench would be needed to tighten them up again. Is it just a question of getting them very tight - or do they need to be to a specific nnumber of Nm ? If so - anyone know a good resource where I could find the Nm ratings for those bolts - or indeed - can I measure them with the wrench ?

Thanks,

WG

>> Edited by WonkyGibbon on Sunday 24th July 16:40

[tvrgit]

You can't use the torque wrench to measure how tight they should be - they might need a much higher torque to release, than they were originally tightened to. Also, for the same reason, you should NEVER use a torque wrench to remove very tight bolts - if you take the wrench beyond its normal scale, you risk knackering the pawls and springs that give it the correct calibration for tightening things later.

Get a decent socket on it, an extension and then either a long enough T-bar or a breaker bar to crack the nut loose, then remove with a ratchet.

Reluctant to recommend specific makes - I have a very good Black and Decker set (which is about 30 years old) and I have just recently replaced the main sizes used (10, 13 and 17), which were getting worn, with Halfords professional ones. I have never had a socket or extension etc break on me - despite jumping on them (and if you knew how fat I am, you would appreciate how strong they have to be), and using bits of tube for more leverage, etc.

You should be able to tell by the price - don't expect a 100-piece socket set for £9.99 to last very long. You can of course splash out and buy the kind of Snap-On or Facom or Mac stuff that garages use - I have a set of Facom combi spanners that just don't seem to slip no matter how rounded the nut is.




>> Edited by tvrgit on Sunday 24th July 21:27

[jons_s3]

I would also recommend the Halfords professional sockets, I've never had one break on me and if I recall they have a lifetime guarantee.

[whitty]

Halfrauds Profesional are excellent bought there 150 piece set that includes some impact sockest in the bigger sizes. Was swinging on the 3/8th drive rachet doing the top ball joint (only have a breaker bar in 1/2 Inch) and it should have destroyed the ratchet, but happy to report still going strong will worth the 100 notes, and it does imperial something I find invaluble with the S.

[tvrgit]

Beware that everything that has "Chrome vanadium" stamped on the side is not necessarily proper Chrome Vanadium. If the shiny surface chrome flakes off when you use them, this is usually a bad sign.

[WonkyGibbon]

Thanks Guys that's a huge help. Off to the shops ...

WG

[tvrgit]

I'd wait till 9am personally, they might be open then

[WonkyGibbon]

tvrgit said:

I'd wait till 9am personally, they might be open then

Oops - Fell at second step then

[s1.5f]

Took my starter motor off last week and 'thought' I had a 13mm and 17mm bolt from either side - wrong!. The 17mm was a gearbox casing bolt.. there was another 13mm bolt from the front hidden away at the top of the starter motor. You might want to check yours just in case

[tvrgit]

Have to say I was puzzled initially because although I haven't looked at the S, nearly every other Ford starter I have seen is held on with 2 (occasionally 3) 13mm bolts so I wondered how the 17mm came into it. That would explain it...

[WonkyGibbon]

You're both very right ! I spoke to a mechanic friend this morning for some pointers as to why the starter wouldn't come off despite removing both bolts. As you say - the 17mm is from the Bell Housing and isn't restraining the motor (though that wasn't how it looked). So infact I've only shifted one of the two bolts so far. The problem is it's all rather by feel and the other 13mm one is very well hidden !

Will be back under the car tonight looking for it ...