(In search of..) Not quite a buyers guide

[Chris71]

So...

I've started to get a vague idea what goes wrong with them from reading buyers guides such as the ones at:

http://www.tvrsseries.com/buying/buyersguide.htm and
http://www.tvrsseries.com/buying/buyingguide.htm

and I have to say the sellers seem to be a refreshingly honest bunch. I'm very pleased to see this and I'm realistic about the fact old cars won't be perfect, but can I get an idea what's usual and/or easily fixed, compared to what is exceptional and/or expensive to correct? The severity of the various faults isn't really covered in the buyers guides, so accepting that they'll all have some faults, which are to be expected and which are serious issues that should affect your decision to buy?


I get the impression the drivetrain is pretty solid and I haven't heard anyone mentioning problems about that. The only thing that's really specific to the S in the buyers guide is clutch problems, I gather this is a bit of an issue with them and presumably quite expensive to replace.

Steering - forward to back play is not a major issue (bulkhead bearing, cheapish to replace apparently), but any play in rotation could be due to a worn rack. This is presumably quite a costly thing to replace?

I gather it's common for the electric windows, mirrors and wiper blades to be lazy on the left hand side? I presume the earth is in a more difficult location over there or something? I kind of expect to be getting out my crimping tool at some point, but are there any electrical faults that are potentially major?

I understand the doors have a habbit of dropping - this sounds quite ominous, is it?

Any serious chassis or outrigger rust could be a potentially expensive problem I assume. The buyers guide says not to worry about perfection though - do you just tap the tubes to see if any areas sound thin and look for any signs of waxoyl?

I'm not too worried about minor scuffs or stone chips I presume these aren't likely to cause any further problems with the body?


Like I said - I don't mean to aggrevate the people who are selling, I know an old car will have some issues and I'm not going to start nit-picking, I just want to get an idea which are serious and which are 'character features'.

[petclub]

Chris I'm no mechanic. You will find a few chasis refurb type threads on here. I helped a friend remove his Wedge body last weekend and you may wish to look on that forum/thread. I realise they are different, but I assume the problems will be similar (i.e. salty, wet muck sticks to the parts you can't reach and promotes rot). The topside of each corner (outriggers) were the areas for the rot. Having said that, it is an older car than you are looking at and I thought it would be far worse. Dave

[Barkychoc]

When I looked for a car I was a real pain in the arse to every seller - I made them take pics of various bits of their cars and email them to me. Some were easy to rule out just from this - and to be fair to many of the sellers they were very honest about the cars condition.

I ended up buying the first car I looked at - overall I knew it was very good and while used it hadn't been abused.
I went to look at it, followed the advice saying never buy the first one you look at and went away to think about it.
I went to look at another, it was a complete dog (and at a garage so I'm not upsetting anyone here I hope) then went straight back to buy the one I have now.

The fact it was a V8 at at good price swayed me a little too

Buy it with your eyes open - some of these early cars are 20 years old now.

Chris

[Gerald-TVR]

Sometimes letting the heart rule the head works. In the Autumn I was looking for a 'toy' (late mid life crisis) and a friend suggested I look at TVRs following a dissapoiting search for a good MGB roadster with a Rover V8 conversion. Found an S2 in the local Land Rover dealership next day, went for a test drive and bought it on the spot. Next day I did some research ad became worried about chassis, trailing arms etc. It now been checked out by a specialist in Coventry and I have been told its very good indeed (in fact the chassis had been replaced some time ago) not only that but it has the rare 'Walnut' dash and has full leather.

[Roy C]

Chris71 said:

The only thing that's really specific to the S in the buyers guide is clutch problems, I gather this is a bit of an issue with them and presumably quite expensive to replace.

Frequent clutch problems are down to leaking/failing hydraulic cylinders.
Clutch replacement is usually an engine out job.

Chris71 said:

Steering - forward to back play is not a major issue (bulkhead bearing, cheapish to replace apparently), but any play in rotation could be due to a worn rack. This is presumably quite a costly thing to replace?

Most common steering problem seems to be failure of the exposed UJs in the column (usually the top one). The UJs can be preserved by making a gaiter (from a bike inner tube or similar) to protect and retain grease.
Replacement racks are AFAIK unobtainable, so need a recon.

Chris71 said:

I gather it's common for the electric windows, mirrors and wiper blades to be lazy on the left hand side? I presume the earth is in a more difficult location over there or something? I kind of expect to be getting out my crimping tool at some point, but are there any electrical faults that are potentially major?

I can't comment - never had any problems in 17 years - but wipers aren't great. Use Rain-x.

Chris71 said:

Any serious chassis or outrigger rust could be a potentially expensive problem I assume. The buyers guide says not to worry about perfection though - do you just tap the tubes to see if any areas sound thin and look for any signs of waxoyl?

Outriggers rust (usually nearside first) and replacements can be welded in, but it's a body lift / body off job. The tubes often rot out from the top, so difficult to see (MOT didn't spot mine, but specialist did).

Trailing arms also rust (usually offside first); Adrian Venn (Exactly TVR) can rebuild them (using a jig) or the later types can be sourced from TVR Car Parts.

[Chris71]

Thanks. So in simple terms, alarm bells should ring at:

• Chassis, outrigger or trailing arm rust.
• Clutch problems (expect it to have been replaced on cars over about 50k miles?)
• Worn racks (any way to distinguish this from comparitively un-scary UJ wear?)

Not necessarilly too worried about:

• Electrical niggles
• Forward-to-backward play in the steering
• Interior trim(?)
• Hood condition(?)

Can anyone comment on drooping doors?

Surveying the classifieds it looks like a late, mint V6 S goes for a little over £5,500, but for that I shouldn't really expect to be able to detect any flaws at all(?). Prices will go down fractionally for age and mileage, but primarily on condition? Presumably a fully restored S1 which has done 120,000 miles is going to be better than an S3 (for example) that's done 80,000 miles on the original clutch, shocks, UJs and so on... It becomes Trigger's broom!

[tvrgaas]

Chris71 said:

Thanks. So in simple terms... It becomes Trigger's broom!

Sounds a bit like my car, an S1 on 90k miles owned for 17 years. Everything is do able; I think.
Car isn't concours, or restored, just stuff put right if necessary. Doesn't do many miles pa.

About 6 years ago I had some work done at David Gerald. Clutch, Trailing Arms, Hood and Door.

As Roy says most of the Clutch problems are down to the hydraulics - the orginal ford is mechanical, TVR bolted on various bit that might need work. Over the years I've had both the Master and Slave done, but not had the actual plate done - on about 90K miles, perhaps that's next!

The near side Door hinge had nearly seized - this then turns in the fibreglass. A pain to replace (by DG).

I had both the trailing arms done, although I note Adrian's comment about ride height!

I had the hood done.

Although a big bill it kind of rekindled the TVR flame - the S had been of the road for a year or so - so much so I then bought a Griffith.

Electrical Niggles are a pain - get them sorted - the connector under the steering wheel is the real killer. Then the lights (earth returns). If they have been done - were they done okay - or have they added yet more problems.

Steering, I had the bulkhead bearing replaced by the steel one years ago, before that the original nylon one was a service item! Not seen UJ wear as such. Rack may need refurbishment soon, MOT man starting to notice it. So do the MOT test, steering wheel side to side - find where the play in system is.

I've Hammerited the chassis twice - it now needs doing again, interested to read about the body offs. Not sure if I want to do that!

Interior Trim is then the next bit, drivers seat webbing has collapsed and the footwell carpets got wet. At the moment it needs an MOT again - the brakes will need doing I think.

[tubbystu]

Chris71 said:

Thanks. So in simple terms, alarm bells should ring at:

• Chassis, outrigger or trailing arm rust.
• Clutch problems (expect it to have been replaced on cars over about 50k miles?)
• Worn racks (any way to distinguish this from comparitively un-scary UJ wear?)

Unless car is kept is carcoon type storage and only used on the one hot/dry day per year chassis will show signs of corrosion - regular waxoyl or hammerite treatment will delay this but at some point (IMHO) every car will need its outriggers cut out and replaced.

Clutch change on V8S involves engine out - don't know about V6 cars.

Rack re-furb can be turned round in a week and isn't expensive. UJ wear is more a knocking / flat spot feel at centre. Easy fix and then clean out the road debris or fit gaiter as per previous, then keep it lube'd.

Chris71 said:

Not necessarilly too worried about:

• Electrical niggles
• Forward-to-backward play in the steering
• Interior trim(?)
• Hood condition(?)

Electric niggles involving slow windows are drivers side due to use and less than stunning design to start with. "They all do that, Sir !"

Forward/back play in steering is UJ and easy fix

Interior trim suffers from damp etc, but re-carpet isn't again hugely expensive - replacment mats are readily available and cheap for the footwells where most dirt and wear occur.

Hood needs to be regularly treated with Renovo or similiar to keep water out. Renovo also do a recolouring product which used once or twice a year keeps it looking nice.

Chris71 said:

Can anyone comment on drooping doors?

"They all do that, Sir !" to one extent or other. Its not the end of the world but is a bit of a bugger to fix if its bad. Walk away from badly sagging door cars.

Chris71 said:

Surveying the classifieds it looks like a late, mint V6 S goes for a little over £5,500, but for that I shouldn't really expect to be able to detect any flaws at all(?). Prices will go down fractionally for age and mileage, but primarily on condition? Presumably a fully restored S1 which has done 120,000 miles is going to be better than an S3 (for example) that's done 80,000 miles on the original clutch, shocks, UJs and so on... It becomes Trigger's broom!

S1, S1,5 & S2 are different from S3, S4 etc in interior detail and door size amongst other details. The longer they went on making them the more consistent and reliable straight out of the box they became - by now any original reliability issues will have been resolved.

Buy the best one you can afford. Scrimping now will not result in savings down the line.

[Chris71]

Thanks! Some excellent advice there. As always there are more questions I'm afraid...

What is the life of the various major components?
The consensus seems to be that anything over 100,000 miles is a high mileage S. Being more specific, I presume if well cared for the engines are good for atleast twice that (so not really an issue). Clutches for about 50,000 - springs and dampers a little more?. In other words typically how long/far after it was last replaced would I expect to shell out for a particular part (accepting that it's a huge generalisation!)

Must admit, I assumed reconditioning a rack would be an expensive job, glad to hear it's not. Speaking of all things steering related - am I right in thinking the S3's have some sort of rear-wheel tracking adjustment on the trailing arms that the earlier ones don't? Hence they might need to be setup a bit more thoroughly?

Important to hear that some chassis rust is to be expected! Is there an idiot proof way of telling if/where it is signigicant?

Now, needless to say, I am deeply sceptical about this one, but does anyone recognise this car:

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/TVR+...

It appears to be an S3. The dealer reckons it was HPI registered as the result of a fraudulent claim and says the chassis is very solid. I suspect when it comes to a commercial sale anything that seems to good will be, but seems it's only down the road I intend to take a look.

[Barkychoc]

The rubber bumper trims are not original - S2 onwards has a chrome strip aswell they aren't plain black.
Problem is they all look good in photos.
To be honest there's lots of choice out there - if there is something dodgy about its history I'd give it a miss.
I find it a bit difficult to understand why a dealer would have a car with a dodgy history - I'd have thought they would have given it a wide berth.

Just my tuppeny's worth.

[Chris71]

Barkychoc said:

The rubber bumper trims are not original - S2 onwards has a chrome strip aswell they aren't plain black.
Problem is they all look good in photos.
To be honest there's lots of choice out there - if there is something dodgy about its history I'd give it a miss.
I find it a bit difficult to understand why a dealer would have a car with a dodgy history - I'd have thought they would have given it a wide berth.

Just my tuppeny's worth.

My sentiments exactly, but I'd like to see as many as possible and this one is very close to me ...unlike the vast majority!

Under the circumstances he'd have to try very hard to persuade me it was a good move. Even if he did and it turned out to be mint, resale could be an issue if it's HPI registered. On a rather different end of the scale, there is a rather nice one in the PH classifieds I have my eye on, but I haven't even seen an S in the flesh since I was at uni, so I need to have a look at a few before I can make any real judgement.

[tubbystu]

Barkychoc said:

The rubber bumper trims are not original - S2 onwards has a chrome strip aswell they aren't plain black.

But if the bumpers have been off for respray etc the chrome bits may often not get re-fitted due to fixings etc - you can buy the "chrome in a plastic sheath" trim on a strip, but I don't miss mine certainly.

[Chris71]

tubbystu said:

Barkychoc said:

The rubber bumper trims are not original - S2 onwards has a chrome strip aswell they aren't plain black.

But if the bumpers have been off for respray etc the chrome bits may often not get re-fitted due to fixings etc - you can buy the "chrome in a plastic sheath" trim on a strip, but I don't miss mine certainly.

Respray + HPI issues =

Still, like I said, I need to look at a few across the spectrum and you never know - at the end of it, this one might even be a pleasant surprise.