How safe are S's?
Discussion
Orophin said:
I'm only a youngster and have little experience with high performance cars. My dad is getting worried...
April the 1st was a week ago. 
On the off chance you're serious - they're fairly docile. Don't repeat this, but they actually handle rather a lot like a certain Mazda Roadster. The big difference is you have the torque to provoke the rear end in the dry with the S and not really with the MX5. A certain ammount of respect and self restraint is required with any vaguely quick car, but it's pretty much as easy to drive quickly as anything I've owned.
As for crash safety - again it's relative. They're a lot more substantial than a Lotus 7 or something, but most have no roll over protection and you can forget ncap stars, deformable crumble zones and seatbelts that tension properly.
If you're sensible and you can sweet talk someone like Hagerty for insurance I see no reason why a young driver shouldn't have one (I'm only 24), but I think you have to apply a certain amount of common sense.
The fundamental problem is that the RWD setup is unstable at the limit, and you need to develop the appropriate reactions to recover from a slide. The most important aspect is to develop the RWD mindset that you are always on your guard for the back starting to step out and when it happens you steer into the slide and feather the throttle. This needs to become instinctive.
Not wishing to open up that can of worms, but I don't think RWD is inherantly any less stable than FWD. I find the sensation of the front end suddenly heading for the hedge more unnerving than the back going I think. And that's not to say that oversteer is exclusive to RWD - my 205 GTi would snap into oversteer quicker than the TVR does. Interestingly I think you get a heightened sense of the car steering on the throttle within the limits of grip with RWD. To put it crudely, I think you have to push a FWD car harder to make it entertaining.
The Tiv is a lot better mannered than a Mk2 MR2 thats for sure... once the back end of that stepped out, the pendulum effect of the rear mounted engine gave very little or no time to correct it.
Just drive within your limits and remember, its not just cars that get recalled by their maker !!!
K
Just drive within your limits and remember, its not just cars that get recalled by their maker !!!
K
Chris71 said:
Not wishing to open up that can of worms, but I don't think RWD is inherantly any less stable than FWD. I find the sensation of the front end suddenly heading for the hedge more unnerving than the back going I think. And that's not to say that oversteer is exclusive to RWD - my 205 GTi would snap into oversteer quicker than the TVR does. Interestingly I think you get a heightened sense of the car steering on the throttle within the limits of grip with RWD. To put it crudely, I think you have to push a FWD car harder to make it entertaining.
That's all nice and well concerning at-the-limit cornering, but all else being equal FWD is essentially stable when for instance hitting standing water or black ice (not always a good thing mind, but at least you'll be meeting the tree lining the road head-on rather than sideways 
) where an RWD car will want to swap ends in these scenarios when all of a sudden the modest amount of throttle you're on, is too much. Edited by 900T-R on Tuesday 8th April 10:31
While agreeing with previous posts that the nut behind the wheel is the biggest contributor to safety (or danger) I always remain aware that the S is not a car you would want to have an accident in.
By modern standards it obviously falls short of air bags, door bars, crumple zones etc. Even for its day I believe the side impact protection is poor to non-existant (the first thing to slow down a side swipe from a 4x4 will be your right ear!). Adding a roll cage may help.
An impact switch to kill the fuel pump in the event of an accident was also pretty much standard on fuel injected cars in the eighties, but not on the S. I guess one could be fitted, as could a plumbed in fire extinguisher.
I say this only to keep things in perspective - I haven't fitted any safety mods to my car, it's just that when driving the S I am even more defensive than when in the daily eurobox. However I have had it for four years now and have no intention of parting with it. Just treat it with respect, understand its limitations and enjoy!
By modern standards it obviously falls short of air bags, door bars, crumple zones etc. Even for its day I believe the side impact protection is poor to non-existant (the first thing to slow down a side swipe from a 4x4 will be your right ear!). Adding a roll cage may help.
An impact switch to kill the fuel pump in the event of an accident was also pretty much standard on fuel injected cars in the eighties, but not on the S. I guess one could be fitted, as could a plumbed in fire extinguisher.
I say this only to keep things in perspective - I haven't fitted any safety mods to my car, it's just that when driving the S I am even more defensive than when in the daily eurobox. However I have had it for four years now and have no intention of parting with it. Just treat it with respect, understand its limitations and enjoy!
Hey Orophin,
I've had an S3 for nine years. I don't have a problem with the car accelerating, I have a problem slowing down. No joke. The back end goes light (hence losing traction) and then it starts to wiggle.
If the road it wet, moist or even thinking about getting wet be careful when accelerating. It may only need to be slightly greasy and you can have a four wheel slide. I have had two 'incidents with mine'.
The first was coming off a roundabout and onto a short dual carriageway which had an immediate left bend. I guess I was in second as I'd only just left the red-light on the roundabout. The car slid into the fast lane without any warning. Could have been an oil spill I suppose. Fortunately there was nothing around. (The same happened with a BMW rear-wheel drive I had on a greasy road so it's not just Tivs).
The second I wasn't so lucky. I was about to overtake a car on a long straight dusty road. She was doing less than forty but unfortunately as I was starting to pull out I noticed there was a hidden dip so braked and pulled back in. Doing that made the back end go light, it wiggled politely then spun me across the otherside of the road and into a ditch. Luckily nothing else was coming the otherway. That whole event completely put me off driving my car (for a while). Had I been in my work's car I wouldn't have had a problem but here could have been serious.
As it happened only the bonnet needed replacing after hitting the kerb and I bent the exhaust (in the ditch). Nothing else was wrong. I didn't feel anything, so I can vouch for the chassis.
So the morale of the story is ANY TVR can bite. Be careful when the roads are greasy or damp and when under braking. I've had my car checked out and the brakes were okay. I can let go of the steering wheel and it stops straight. But in an emergency I think it would be all over the place. So I ride with lots of distance between me and the thing in front.
That said, these are the only two 'events' in nine years. Anyway, it's not how fast you go, it's how you get there. Buy one, love it and don't forget it's got teeth.
You'll be fine.
Heath
I've had an S3 for nine years. I don't have a problem with the car accelerating, I have a problem slowing down. No joke. The back end goes light (hence losing traction) and then it starts to wiggle.
If the road it wet, moist or even thinking about getting wet be careful when accelerating. It may only need to be slightly greasy and you can have a four wheel slide. I have had two 'incidents with mine'.
The first was coming off a roundabout and onto a short dual carriageway which had an immediate left bend. I guess I was in second as I'd only just left the red-light on the roundabout. The car slid into the fast lane without any warning. Could have been an oil spill I suppose. Fortunately there was nothing around. (The same happened with a BMW rear-wheel drive I had on a greasy road so it's not just Tivs).
The second I wasn't so lucky. I was about to overtake a car on a long straight dusty road. She was doing less than forty but unfortunately as I was starting to pull out I noticed there was a hidden dip so braked and pulled back in. Doing that made the back end go light, it wiggled politely then spun me across the otherside of the road and into a ditch. Luckily nothing else was coming the otherway. That whole event completely put me off driving my car (for a while
). Had I been in my work's car I wouldn't have had a problem but here could have been serious.As it happened only the bonnet needed replacing after hitting the kerb and I bent the exhaust (in the ditch). Nothing else was wrong. I didn't feel anything, so I can vouch for the chassis.
So the morale of the story is ANY TVR can bite. Be careful when the roads are greasy or damp and when under braking. I've had my car checked out and the brakes were okay. I can let go of the steering wheel and it stops straight. But in an emergency I think it would be all over the place. So I ride with lots of distance between me and the thing in front.
That said, these are the only two 'events' in nine years. Anyway, it's not how fast you go, it's how you get there. Buy one, love it and don't forget it's got teeth.
You'll be fine.
Heath
Edited by Heathyboy on Tuesday 8th April 15:40
Edited by Heathyboy on Tuesday 8th April 15:42
Heathyboy said:
So the morale of the story is ANY car can bite.
EFA The only place I've come close to losing my S I recently revisited in my 1100cc eurobox - it did exactly the same thing as the tiv due to a hidden camber change.
It's not like certain mid or rear engined cars, which are fundamentally difficult to drive quickly. It's no worse than driving one of the more aggresively set up hot hatches on greasey roads (minus ESP systems etc). Just if in doubt, ere on the side of caution.
900T-R said:
Chris71 said:
Not wishing to open up that can of worms, but I don't think RWD is inherantly any less stable than FWD. I find the sensation of the front end suddenly heading for the hedge more unnerving than the back going I think. And that's not to say that oversteer is exclusive to RWD - my 205 GTi would snap into oversteer quicker than the TVR does. Interestingly I think you get a heightened sense of the car steering on the throttle within the limits of grip with RWD. To put it crudely, I think you have to push a FWD car harder to make it entertaining.
That's all nice and well concerning at-the-limit cornering, but all else being equal FWD is essentially stable when for instance hitting standing water or black ice (not always a good thing mind, but at least you'll be meeting the tree lining the road head-on rather than sideways ) where an RWD car will want to swap ends in these scenarios when all of a sudden the modest amount of throttle you're on, is too much. Edited by 900T-R on Tuesday 8th April 10:31
Has to be said mine does have one thing that might not be entirely expected if you're used to driving modern cars - if you back out harshly at various speed and load points in a low gear the engine braking can be quite savage. Even though the chassis is relatively stable I wouldn't want to do it going round a corner. There again, you wouldn't want to back off suddenly going round a corner in anything I suppose. The other thing is it's reasonably suseptable to cambers, but no more so than most of the sports cars I've driven.
I took it out for a few hours last night and still just can't get over how well it handles. The steering feel is a little vague to start with, but the balance is good (and very adjustable) and now I've got a bit more used to it I can really see why people describe them as chuckable. The only drawback I can see is that it has a nasty habbit of grounding if driven enthusiastically.
I took it out for a few hours last night and still just can't get over how well it handles. The steering feel is a little vague to start with, but the balance is good (and very adjustable) and now I've got a bit more used to it I can really see why people describe them as chuckable. The only drawback I can see is that it has a nasty habbit of grounding if driven enthusiastically.
Heathyboy said:
Hey Orophin,
I've had an S3 for nine years. I don't have a problem with the car accelerating, I have a problem slowing down. No joke. The back end goes light (hence losing traction) and then it starts to wiggle.
That really really doesn't sound right I've had an S3 for nine years. I don't have a problem with the car accelerating, I have a problem slowing down. No joke. The back end goes light (hence losing traction) and then it starts to wiggle.
When I had that problem on the S it turned out to be a burst shock on the rear.
page3 said:
Heathyboy said:
Hey Orophin,
I've had an S3 for nine years. I don't have a problem with the car accelerating, I have a problem slowing down. No joke. The back end goes light (hence losing traction) and then it starts to wiggle.
That really really doesn't sound right I've had an S3 for nine years. I don't have a problem with the car accelerating, I have a problem slowing down. No joke. The back end goes light (hence losing traction) and then it starts to wiggle.
When I had that problem on the S it turned out to be a burst shock on the rear.
You really should get that seen to Heathy. Mine went and stopped in a straight line even with the 17 year old factory suspension. Yes I had the odd 'moment' due to inexperience in the early days but from your description, it sounds like there's something wrong.
Hi guys,
It does brake in a straight line and it brakes well. However, if you brake firmly and turn at the same time the back end goes. It's only done it once but I only had to do it once. So, if an animal ran out in front of me and I had to brake and steer to avoid it I would probably be safer just hitting the critter - no matter how big it was The beauty of ABS I guess, is that it gets you out of these situations.
I have a new Toyota RAV 4 and the first night I had it a deer ran out in front of me, luckily I swerved and braked without a problem - in the Tiv I would have been eating grass!
Like was said above the engine braking from 2nd to 1st can also make it wiggle in the right circumstances. Think its called having fun or something???
It does brake in a straight line and it brakes well. However, if you brake firmly and turn at the same time the back end goes. It's only done it once but I only had to do it once. So, if an animal ran out in front of me and I had to brake and steer to avoid it I would probably be safer just hitting the critter - no matter how big it was
The beauty of ABS I guess, is that it gets you out of these situations.I have a new Toyota RAV 4 and the first night I had it a deer ran out in front of me, luckily I swerved and braked without a problem - in the Tiv I would have been eating grass!
Like was said above the engine braking from 2nd to 1st can also make it wiggle in the right circumstances. Think its called having fun or something???
Your Dad Is right to be worried... young male drivers have the most crashes.. and an S is not a good car to have a crash in.. I could only reiterate what has been said before..
If your S scares you that is probably a good thing.. you'll drive it careful.
Wouldn't want my son to have one.. sorry to spoil yer fun..
Paul
If your S scares you that is probably a good thing.. you'll drive it careful.
Wouldn't want my son to have one..
sorry to spoil yer fun..Paul
To be fair most cars worth driving are a bit like this.
I've had sports cars ever since my first 'own' car at 19.
I think if you're going to kill yourself in an S, you'd do so in anything - just here it would probably happen sooner! If you're talking about genuinely unforseen events when even the best drivers must wish they could just stamp on the ABS then being young or indeed male has very little to do with it.
I hope I don't sound like I'm contradicting myself here - like pretty much any car you do have to watch what you're doing and bear in mind that being stupid could have very serious consequences. However, I'm not sure the S is any worse than most sports cars. The learner-sports-car of choice, the MX5 is very similar to drive (barring the increased engine braking and greater power of the S) and they're touted as idiot proof. Of course, they aren't either, but the difference is principally a matter of image I think.
I've had sports cars ever since my first 'own' car at 19.
I think if you're going to kill yourself in an S, you'd do so in anything - just here it would probably happen sooner! If you're talking about genuinely unforseen events when even the best drivers must wish they could just stamp on the ABS then being young or indeed male has very little to do with it.
I hope I don't sound like I'm contradicting myself here - like pretty much any car you do have to watch what you're doing and bear in mind that being stupid could have very serious consequences. However, I'm not sure the S is any worse than most sports cars. The learner-sports-car of choice, the MX5 is very similar to drive (barring the increased engine braking and greater power of the S) and they're touted as idiot proof. Of course, they aren't either, but the difference is principally a matter of image I think.
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