V6 Cologne engine sounds loud tappet rattles in my S2

[S2Mike]

Have been using my S2 but sounds quite loud tappet rattle, has been same since I bought it last October, a change of oil has made no difference. I believe it is hydraulic tappets ( unconfirmed) so no adjustment.
Options are:
1. Additives to oil to flush the pipes?
2. Replace the rocker shaft with new.
3. Replace rocker shaft and rockers with new.
4. Accept the noise is "normal"
5. Use rocker shaft and rockers from a spare engine I have.

I want to do the job myself, but want to be sure it will work, I hate doing a job twice, especially when it takes a while to get to the offending bit.
As my TVR only has 47000 miles on the clock should it be that noisy?

[GadgeS3C]

I thought it was only the S3C that had hydraulic tappets - but I could be wrong!

[S2Mike]

I have bought a Granada workshop manual, which says that the 2.9 V6 can have either, but no details of how to know until you get a professional to check, by which time its in bits.

[GadgeS3C]

Can't find my copy of SH's bible at the mo but I think it was only the S3C that TVR fitted the engine with hydraulic tappets in. That said, engines could be swapped. I understand you're right that the only way to know is to check the tappet settings. Haven't done this on mine yet so I'm not sure what it has.

Does it have a Ford or TVR engine number? I believe some of the engine codes may help to confirm.

[tvrgit]

GadgeS3C said:

I thought it was only the S3C that had hydraulic tappets - but I could be wrong!

Not all S3C cars have hydraulic tappets (mine does, but I am aware of others that don't). It was only between certain engine numbers. I can't remember where to find out what that range of engine numbers was though. Don't think an S2 would have them though.

It's impossible to tell just by looking, whether the engine has hydraulic tappets or not. The valves, rockers, pushrods etc are exactly the same.

You can tell by feel. It's difficult to explain, but once you feel the difference, you'll know. If you are adjusting ordinary tappets you feel the right tightness with the feeler gauge. If you nip it up a bit more, it gets tighter, till you can't get the feeler gauge out (ot back in again). With a hydraulic tappet, the hydraulics take up some of that pressure, so that although the gap gets tighter, it doesn't feel "right".

If you are going to try this, try one tappet and see how it feels and count how far you turn the adjuster, so that if it IS hydraulic, you can put it back where it was. Adjusting hydraulic tappets is a pain in the bum, so don't lose the settings!

[S2Mike]

GadgeS3C said:

Can't find my copy of SH's bible at the mo but I think it was only the S3C that TVR fitted the engine with hydraulic tappets in. That said, engines could be swapped. I understand you're right that the only way to know is to check the tappet settings. Haven't done this on mine yet so I'm not sure what it has.

Does it have a Ford or TVR engine number? I believe some of the engine codes may help to confirm.

In daylight tomorrow I will take a look.

[tvrgit]

Found this thread from a while ago. Starts off with "definitive" engine numbers, then gets confusing (as per usual)

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

ETA this one might be helpful as well:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=11&...

Edited by tvrgit on Sunday 29th July 22:27

[jwoffshore]

It's unlikely that replacing the rockers & shafts will cure that kind of noise. If the rockers/shafts have worn out at such low mileage, it's indicative of another problem, such as lack of top end oil supply. You can tell if your car has hydraulic tappets by checking the valve clearances. If the clearances are all zero, that indicates the presence of pre-load applied to the hydraulic tappets. Solid tappets should have the appropriate clearances as per the service info.

If it is a problem with the cam & followers (tappets), then you have to get the heads off too as it is not possible to extract the followers with the heads in place.

If you remove a push rod and shine a torch down on top of the follower and hopefully without too much oil pooling down there, there is a visible difference between the two types of followers. The solid type is obviously "solid" but the hydraulic has a centre piece retained in the outer.



Solid tappet on left, hydraulic on right, viewed from the top.

Are you sure the noise is tappets? Is it just one loud "tick"? Sometimes if the exhaust manifold gasket is blowing, it can make a similar noise.

Edited by jwoffshore on Sunday 29th July 23:20

[motomatchless]

Hello all,
I had the same with my S3, too much noise from the tappets.
Hydraulics or not ?
The only way to be sure is to take the rockers and shaft of the cylinder head.
When you remove a pushrod, you can see if it is hydraulic or not with the help of photos here above.
I did it on mine and since then my engine is very quite.
I hope for you it not hydraulic.
Christian.

[tvrgit]

jwoffshore said:

If the clearances are all zero, that indicates the presence of pre-load applied to the hydraulic tappets. Solid tappets should have the appropriate clearances as per the service info.

True, and a lot easier than my suggestion of trying to adjust one.

jwoffshore said:

Are you sure the noise is tappets? Is it just one loud "tick"? Sometimes if the exhaust manifold gasket is blowing, it can make a similar noise.

I should have thought of that as well, because I've had that happen too!

[S2Mike]

I have replaced the exhaust manifold gaskets, I remember well because the ******* bolts were all seized and some bodger had rounded the ******** heads of the bolts off.
Possible I still have a leak though, I will check that out, thanks for the idea.
I just dont want to get in too deep, and end up with a box of bits and a car seat!!
Now we have sunshine I wanna be out and about!!
Cheers guys I will report back with progress.

[tvrgit]

Might not be the gaskets - in my case it was a tiny crack in the weld where the 3 pipes go into one (on the underside where you couldn't see it, or get to it to repair it, naturally)

[S2Mike]

Would that be enough to feel, if you could get your hand near it.?? Or is that gonna be too hot to get near?
How did you find it?

[tvrgit]

S2Mike said:

How did you find it?

You know wgen you're groping round the exhaust and there's that brief second between "oh there's a little puff of gas" and "ohyabugger that's hot"?

Then.

[phillpot]

Had an "issue" with crank hitting the dip-stick, sounded very much like a very loose tappet?

Stopped when the end snapped off ( I didn't really panic when I dipped the oil and there was nothing on the stick, before realising it had no max/min markings on it!)


Exhaust tends to get hot long before you'll feel a leak in my (painful) experience, try looking for little black soot marks ?

My 2.9 is very "tappety" no matter how many times I do the clearances, what gaps are you setting them at?

[S2Mike]

I have not done any adjustment at the moment, but would be going by the Ford Granada Haynes manual 0.030 and 0.040in inlet / exhaust ( this is from memory the book is at home ) whatever it says in there anyway, but worried that they maybe hydraulic so not adjustable, book says could be either type.
I wondered though if these engines are naturally "tappety"

[jwoffshore]

The engine is a bit "ticky" but should not be clattering like hell. The other possibility is that you have hydraulic tappets, but a previous person has adjusted them to have clearances like a solid tappet, in which case you will get a terrible noise. The hydraulic tappets need a certain pre-load to work. I can't remember what that should be, maybe 1mm or so?

[tvrgit]

jwoffshore said:

The engine is a bit "ticky" but should not be clattering like hell. The other possibility is that you have hydraulic tappets, but a previous person has adjusted them to have clearances like a solid tappet, in which case you will get a terrible noise. The hydraulic tappets need a certain pre-load to work. I can't remember what that should be, maybe 1mm or so?

it's 2mm. You loosen the tappet until it's definitely loose, then tighten till it JUST takes up the clearance. Then you wind it in a turn and a half which is the equivalent of 2mm preload.

[Stew Mc]

Having just done a complete bottom end re-build with hydraulic tappets I know the setting procedure quite well. With valve fully closed back the adjuster off until you can spin the push rod with your fingers. Then nip the adjuster until the push rod can no longer be turned (zero mm clearance). Then one and a half turns on the adjuster to set the pre-load.
Cheers, Stew.

[S2Mike]

I went what I thought was the easy route, checked the V5, that has D0938-*** ( last three digits blanked out to avoid anyone cloning mine ) the actual numbers are there but I need to look at the engine itself.
Oh well a job for tonight.! Plus risk the burnt arm checking for manifold blow!! Wish me luck Im going in......
.
Back soon.

Edited by S2Mike on Tuesday 31st July 14:16