Knockhill track days - musings and discussion...
Discussion
Can I get some feedback from the mods., and maybe also elicit some comments from interested parties?
At one time, posting notification of track days at Knockhill was commonplace on this part of PH, and continued into the ‘who’s going’, and culminated in folks posting up photos after the event. I’m thinking I haven’t seen any of this for any of the track days this year so far, and spurred on by a post from another forum (where it suggests such posts are now being pulled from PH), I thought I’d start a wee thread a) to confirm what’s what, and b) to propose some solutions.
I have no vested interest in this other than being keen to go on track days (when the car’s working!) and seeing a demise in numbers, particularly new faces, which potentially puts one of my pastimes at risk as organisers start to cancel sessions.
Some of the SIDC Saturday sessions failed to hit the break even numbers required I understand. The last Dreadnought session, on a fine clear and dry evening had 13 spaces unfilled out of 30. And tomorrows TrackScotland session appears to still have spaces left too. In previous years all of these sessions (and others) would have been well over-subscribed, and I’m wondering why?
Well, one reason in my book is not having visibility of these sessions on PH. At one time folks frequented a variety of forums and newsgroups and the information on Knockhill sessions was freely available and discussed. Of these though, only really ScottishScoobies and ScottishElises have survived the domination by PH [and I’m not complaining, I’ve been here for over 10 years!] and curiously the only marques to maintain a healthy presence on track are scoobies and elises [and 7s, who seem to hang out on the Elises site too].
The problem – and this is really for the mods – is that the track ‘day’ situation in Scotland is very very different from the rest of the country. We have only one track (Knockhill) that allows track ‘days’ with multiple cars on a proper track, but given it length and proximity to most folks the typical session is 2 hours in the evening (6:00pm-8:00pm) and sometimes a 4 hour session usually on Saturdays. I understand Knockhill runs more track sessions than any other UK circuit, but very rarely do we get a ‘track day’. And when we do, it’s not top of most folks' list as there’s only so many times you can go round a 1.2 mile track without getting bored or destroying your brakes!
It’s not true to say PH doesn’t allow track day notifications, since they’re there for all to see in the ‘Who’s Going On Which Track Days’ wiki in the Track Days forum. Why not just post there I guess? The problem is that’s not somewhere I’m really going to look, as I can’t separate the wheat from the chaff. The closest English circuit is a 500+ mile round trip for me; probably 800+ for folks in Aberdeen or Inverness, and we could knock up 1000+ return miles to some of the others. Not surprising then we don’t see any of our English cousins coming up to Knockhill for a blast. Even the racey-boys gave up; the TVR Tuscan Challenge abandoned coming to Knockill as being a circuit too far years ago. Of course someone could update that wiki with the Knockhill dates (if anyone knew them all) but that would then swamp the wiki with Knockhill sessions, since as I’ve said above Knockhill doesn’t run the occasional track ‘days’, but hosts short sessions often a couple of times each week.
So the problem for the prospective track driver in Scotland is knowing when something is on at Knockhill. In fairness Knockhill themselves could help if they listed all the sessions coming up, and not just their own. But I can see the point there too, as many bookings will be private and so how are they to know which ones will accept other drivers? It really is difficult to know what’s on now – I can keep track of the SIDC session, Dreadnought and Track-Scotland; but I also gather there are sessions organised by the Lotus guys, Glenrothes Car Club (or whatever they’re called), Alfa Romeo, Porsche etc., and unless you’re ‘in the know’ with that club/organisation how are folks going to get notified and indeed encouraged with the demise of so many other web sites…unless through PH?
Can I therefore suggest that when an organiser runs a track session at Knockhill we get a single ‘Official dd/mm/yy XXX Track Session at KH’ thread for each session where the organiser can post times/booking details, but more importantly the other humble mortals can a) see there’s a session coming up, b) post whatever jolly banter/encouragement is necessary, and c) post photos thereafter and discuss whatever component fell off.
As it is, I see numbers dwindling and I kind of think the lack of visibility on PH (where everyone has now ended up) partly to blame. With great power comes great responsinility...so they say.
Discuss.
...unless of course I've totally misunderstood this, and the TDOs are drivers are just too lazy to post up threads.
At one time, posting notification of track days at Knockhill was commonplace on this part of PH, and continued into the ‘who’s going’, and culminated in folks posting up photos after the event. I’m thinking I haven’t seen any of this for any of the track days this year so far, and spurred on by a post from another forum (where it suggests such posts are now being pulled from PH), I thought I’d start a wee thread a) to confirm what’s what, and b) to propose some solutions.
I have no vested interest in this other than being keen to go on track days (when the car’s working!) and seeing a demise in numbers, particularly new faces, which potentially puts one of my pastimes at risk as organisers start to cancel sessions.
Some of the SIDC Saturday sessions failed to hit the break even numbers required I understand. The last Dreadnought session, on a fine clear and dry evening had 13 spaces unfilled out of 30. And tomorrows TrackScotland session appears to still have spaces left too. In previous years all of these sessions (and others) would have been well over-subscribed, and I’m wondering why?
Well, one reason in my book is not having visibility of these sessions on PH. At one time folks frequented a variety of forums and newsgroups and the information on Knockhill sessions was freely available and discussed. Of these though, only really ScottishScoobies and ScottishElises have survived the domination by PH [and I’m not complaining, I’ve been here for over 10 years!] and curiously the only marques to maintain a healthy presence on track are scoobies and elises [and 7s, who seem to hang out on the Elises site too].
The problem – and this is really for the mods – is that the track ‘day’ situation in Scotland is very very different from the rest of the country. We have only one track (Knockhill) that allows track ‘days’ with multiple cars on a proper track, but given it length and proximity to most folks the typical session is 2 hours in the evening (6:00pm-8:00pm) and sometimes a 4 hour session usually on Saturdays. I understand Knockhill runs more track sessions than any other UK circuit, but very rarely do we get a ‘track day’. And when we do, it’s not top of most folks' list as there’s only so many times you can go round a 1.2 mile track without getting bored or destroying your brakes!
It’s not true to say PH doesn’t allow track day notifications, since they’re there for all to see in the ‘Who’s Going On Which Track Days’ wiki in the Track Days forum. Why not just post there I guess? The problem is that’s not somewhere I’m really going to look, as I can’t separate the wheat from the chaff. The closest English circuit is a 500+ mile round trip for me; probably 800+ for folks in Aberdeen or Inverness, and we could knock up 1000+ return miles to some of the others. Not surprising then we don’t see any of our English cousins coming up to Knockhill for a blast. Even the racey-boys gave up; the TVR Tuscan Challenge abandoned coming to Knockill as being a circuit too far years ago. Of course someone could update that wiki with the Knockhill dates (if anyone knew them all) but that would then swamp the wiki with Knockhill sessions, since as I’ve said above Knockhill doesn’t run the occasional track ‘days’, but hosts short sessions often a couple of times each week.
So the problem for the prospective track driver in Scotland is knowing when something is on at Knockhill. In fairness Knockhill themselves could help if they listed all the sessions coming up, and not just their own. But I can see the point there too, as many bookings will be private and so how are they to know which ones will accept other drivers? It really is difficult to know what’s on now – I can keep track of the SIDC session, Dreadnought and Track-Scotland; but I also gather there are sessions organised by the Lotus guys, Glenrothes Car Club (or whatever they’re called), Alfa Romeo, Porsche etc., and unless you’re ‘in the know’ with that club/organisation how are folks going to get notified and indeed encouraged with the demise of so many other web sites…unless through PH?
Can I therefore suggest that when an organiser runs a track session at Knockhill we get a single ‘Official dd/mm/yy XXX Track Session at KH’ thread for each session where the organiser can post times/booking details, but more importantly the other humble mortals can a) see there’s a session coming up, b) post whatever jolly banter/encouragement is necessary, and c) post photos thereafter and discuss whatever component fell off.
As it is, I see numbers dwindling and I kind of think the lack of visibility on PH (where everyone has now ended up) partly to blame. With great power comes great responsinility...so they say.
Discuss.
...unless of course I've totally misunderstood this, and the TDOs are drivers are just too lazy to post up threads.
I'm not convinced that the PH exposure is the problem, I think its costs. A typical TD costs £150ish just to sign up, then maybe a couple of tanks of petrol, thats £250 before looking at tyres etc.
I think maybe people are just tightening their belts just now.
I'm probably wrong though!
I think maybe people are just tightening their belts just now.
I'm probably wrong though!
To be honest I'm a bit bemused by the deletion of TrackScotlands threads - We are a club that organise trackdays, not a company that run a business making money from trackdays. You only have to look at the KH hire costs to see that we dont make money from this. Our last trackday actually cost us about £3000 out of our own pockets. Thats a risk we take and were aware of. We have made the odd £100 here or there but that goes very quickly when you take the drive to and from KH into account for the event!
As mentioned above, Scotland's Track Day scene is VERY different to Englands. Other than KH's own trackdays, most of the trackdays in Scotland are CLUB organised.
In my opinion this is pretty much the same as someone advertising a Rolling Road day (I'll be disgusted if admins delete that charity RR thread) or posting something about any other general car event - Scottish Motorfair, Race The Runway etc etc.
At the moment we are still short for our Trackday tomorrow. If this trend continues we will simply have no option but to stop organising trackdays at Knockhill
I'd like some input from admin on this rather than a blanket 'no advertising' response.
Adam
As mentioned above, Scotland's Track Day scene is VERY different to Englands. Other than KH's own trackdays, most of the trackdays in Scotland are CLUB organised.
In my opinion this is pretty much the same as someone advertising a Rolling Road day (I'll be disgusted if admins delete that charity RR thread) or posting something about any other general car event - Scottish Motorfair, Race The Runway etc etc.
At the moment we are still short for our Trackday tomorrow. If this trend continues we will simply have no option but to stop organising trackdays at Knockhill
I'd like some input from admin on this rather than a blanket 'no advertising' response.
Adam
Edited by Adam Kindness on Tuesday 31st May 15:54
It does seem very odd to me that any threads either promoting or discussing Knockhill track days seem to get deleted on PH. It's for this reason that I haven't posted up any threads about the SIDC track events this year on here.
One thing that would be great if we could have a locked sticky thread with simply the dates, times and a link to the club organising the event, or an email address for more info. All it would take is one person to act as a focal point, and they maintain the list for everyone. New events would just be PM'd to that person to amend the original thread as necessary.
A discussion thread about each event would also be nice, and people could update it after the event with photos, videos etc.
John
One thing that would be great if we could have a locked sticky thread with simply the dates, times and a link to the club organising the event, or an email address for more info. All it would take is one person to act as a focal point, and they maintain the list for everyone. New events would just be PM'd to that person to amend the original thread as necessary.
A discussion thread about each event would also be nice, and people could update it after the event with photos, videos etc.
John
I'm not sure if it has seemed a bit unusual in here recently, I didn't see any photo threads or anything the other week when the time attack was on.
I'd have liked to get to a couple of trackdays this year and have always had fun at the ones Adam and Fee have organised, I've just not been able to get along to any.
I'd have liked to get to a couple of trackdays this year and have always had fun at the ones Adam and Fee have organised, I've just not been able to get along to any.
Can't see anything wrong with adding the track days to the events wiki, stickied at the top of the forum, as Baz said.
Heck i even suggested it when we started the wiki but didn't have the dates to add, as mentioned it's very hard to find them all!
I can see why PH don't want the place flooded with track day posts and advertising for them but it's never seemed an issue in the PH Ecosse forum at least.
For each event, keeping it to 1 thread each for signing up, banter and pics, IMO is the best idea. Pretty much like we do for the runs.
Heck i even suggested it when we started the wiki but didn't have the dates to add, as mentioned it's very hard to find them all!
I can see why PH don't want the place flooded with track day posts and advertising for them but it's never seemed an issue in the PH Ecosse forum at least.
For each event, keeping it to 1 thread each for signing up, banter and pics, IMO is the best idea. Pretty much like we do for the runs.
It would appear that the no advertising policy of PH is now being enforced more ridgidly than before by the moderators. I imagine as they trawl through the vast number of posts on PH looking for adverts to delete they do not spend a great deal of time on the nuances of what constitutes an actual advertisment (posted purely for commercial gain) and something that is posted for our information. As was recently demonstrated by the moderators deleting the post inviting us to attend a small motor show in Argyl organised by the Loch Fynne Car Club !
I would imagine the moderators have a certain amount of discretion in what they can delete and perhaps this should be used a bit more when dealing with the Scottish Forum and the posting of upcoming events. As has already been stated we are fairly unique given our geographic location and the distance from other UK racetracks. As far as I am aware none of the trackdays that used to be posted("advertised") on the Scottish forum were being run purely to make a profit for the organizers and as such should not be treated as commercial advertising. The PH Scottish Forum is a great way to find out what is happening in the Scottish motoring world and it would be unfortunate if moderators continue to confuse information with advertising.
I would imagine the moderators have a certain amount of discretion in what they can delete and perhaps this should be used a bit more when dealing with the Scottish Forum and the posting of upcoming events. As has already been stated we are fairly unique given our geographic location and the distance from other UK racetracks. As far as I am aware none of the trackdays that used to be posted("advertised") on the Scottish forum were being run purely to make a profit for the organizers and as such should not be treated as commercial advertising. The PH Scottish Forum is a great way to find out what is happening in the Scottish motoring world and it would be unfortunate if moderators continue to confuse information with advertising.
What if most of the punters who attend track days at Knockhill are just attending dates set out on the Knockhill website, and the smaller number of 'enthusiasts' that read the likes of PH etc just isnt enough to support any other private evenings on a regular basis.
MSVR tracks, without going into the nitty gritty of how there run, post dates for all other trackdays be it Javelin/ Lotus on Track/ Book a track, could this be the case with Knockhill? Or would other private evenings posted on the Knockhill website potentially mean less going to the circuits organized days/evenings and more going to the privateer evenings therefore spreading the custom between both, justified that the private evenings dont make 'profit' of sort. Would Knockhill make there money either way.
Take Lotus on track, you pay an annual subscription and all the dates are set out for the year, it might be a profit making group-company-business...... i dont know, but the package they offer is more complete, but obviously this takes more effort. So perhaps rather than just concentrating on Knockhill more circuits could be found around the UK, maybe 4 meetings a year but worthwhile at tracks people might not think about going to/wouldnt go to every two weeks or every month but could make a bit of a petrol head trip out of it. Nurburgring ok its motorsport Mecca but people are willing to drive there over a few days get ferries etc just to have a blast.
I have mates that go from Newcastle to Snetterton-Silverstone-Mallory-Cadwell all of which are 300-500 mile round trips, regularly i.e. every race meeting. Aberdeen to Croft is roughly a 500 mile round trip. If you stay in the Central belt say Glasgow, Oulton Parks a 450 mile round trip, Crofts 350.
I may be going away from the subject here a little but i dont think advertising on PH is going to make much of a difference to 7 people turn up to a track evening at Knockhill or 20, if someones into track days then they will find out where and when they are. If their not then they wont, and with the amount of people in Scotland and only one track perhaps the enthusiasm isnt being generated or there's not enough of it to justify Knockhill every two weeks or every month with the track days there already running themselves.
MSVR tracks, without going into the nitty gritty of how there run, post dates for all other trackdays be it Javelin/ Lotus on Track/ Book a track, could this be the case with Knockhill? Or would other private evenings posted on the Knockhill website potentially mean less going to the circuits organized days/evenings and more going to the privateer evenings therefore spreading the custom between both, justified that the private evenings dont make 'profit' of sort. Would Knockhill make there money either way.
Take Lotus on track, you pay an annual subscription and all the dates are set out for the year, it might be a profit making group-company-business...... i dont know, but the package they offer is more complete, but obviously this takes more effort. So perhaps rather than just concentrating on Knockhill more circuits could be found around the UK, maybe 4 meetings a year but worthwhile at tracks people might not think about going to/wouldnt go to every two weeks or every month but could make a bit of a petrol head trip out of it. Nurburgring ok its motorsport Mecca but people are willing to drive there over a few days get ferries etc just to have a blast.
I have mates that go from Newcastle to Snetterton-Silverstone-Mallory-Cadwell all of which are 300-500 mile round trips, regularly i.e. every race meeting. Aberdeen to Croft is roughly a 500 mile round trip. If you stay in the Central belt say Glasgow, Oulton Parks a 450 mile round trip, Crofts 350.
I may be going away from the subject here a little but i dont think advertising on PH is going to make much of a difference to 7 people turn up to a track evening at Knockhill or 20, if someones into track days then they will find out where and when they are. If their not then they wont, and with the amount of people in Scotland and only one track perhaps the enthusiasm isnt being generated or there's not enough of it to justify Knockhill every two weeks or every month with the track days there already running themselves.
Maybe post the whole KH trackday calander off the TS forums, highlighting the next upcoming day, but without a direct link to the TS shop (folks are smart enough to find it themselves).
Would be nice to get some clarification on exactly what is and isn't allowed, as what effectively amounts to a blanket ban on discussion of any kind of activity with a commercial element is just stupid IMO.
Would be nice to get some clarification on exactly what is and isn't allowed, as what effectively amounts to a blanket ban on discussion of any kind of activity with a commercial element is just stupid IMO.
I had no idea some threads were being deleted being deemed as advertising. I used the forum all the time to scan for upcoming KH days so it no doubt will have impacted how busy some of these days are. There is a great sticky over on the ScottishElises forum that is an up to date list of all KH days
http://www.scottishelises.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?...
Maybe a simple sticky like this would be enough in here? Would that keep the admins happy?
http://www.scottishelises.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?...
Maybe a simple sticky like this would be enough in here? Would that keep the admins happy?
It does seem a shame that the track scene seems on the down in Scotland. I used to have a M3 trackcar until earlier this years and attended quite a few TS and Dreadnought evenings, as well as organising my own. The events were run very well and had a much better standard of cars and drivers than your typical hot hatch day run by Knockhill.
The problem for me was I got bored, simple as that. Knockhill is such a small track, that after 10 trackdays or so I just couldn't motivate myself for the 200+ mile round trip from Aberdeen, not to mention the huge overall expense. I would much rather head up to the Lecht late on a summers evening, have just as much fun, if not more, than a track session and it cost 1/10th.
Scotland desperately needs a second track (or an extension to Knockhill), but the market would suggest there isn't the demand.
It's a real shame, but I don't miss Knockhill trackdays. It might be fun to do one a year or so, but that's it.
The problem for me was I got bored, simple as that. Knockhill is such a small track, that after 10 trackdays or so I just couldn't motivate myself for the 200+ mile round trip from Aberdeen, not to mention the huge overall expense. I would much rather head up to the Lecht late on a summers evening, have just as much fun, if not more, than a track session and it cost 1/10th.
Scotland desperately needs a second track (or an extension to Knockhill), but the market would suggest there isn't the demand.
It's a real shame, but I don't miss Knockhill trackdays. It might be fun to do one a year or so, but that's it.
We don't mind anyone starting a thread saying 'I've booked at XXXX, anyone else going?' or similar, the only thing we try and stop is organisers posting their own dates.
PH now has such high visibility in search and generally (with approx 3million users per month) that to allow all TDO's to push their own sessions would end up with this forum being one big advert. We'd have the announcement of the full calendar, the post for each event and then the final push for sales as each event gets closer. Not ideal and something we need to be mindful of.
Track day advertising is not a revenue generator of massive scale for PH, so we aren't trying to protect £££, more we are simply trying to avoid struggling TDO's from using the forums to promote continuously. We do still encourage them to use the (free) PH calendar though, as that provides a useful guide to what's happening. The rules haven't changed, and we haven't issued any new directives to clean up.
We speak to organisers quite regularly, and in the main it's a tough market at the moment. I used to attend track days myself a few years ago but money is spent more carefully these days and the entrance fee, fuel, tyre and brake wear is a luxury not all can afford. Some companies continue to be successful, but I'd imagine market conditions affects things more than a post on PH does right now.
At the risk of repeating myself, a member who has no involvement with a company can post about track days they are attending, that's fine and always will be. Blatant attempts to promote will always be removed, as they would be on any other forum
PH now has such high visibility in search and generally (with approx 3million users per month) that to allow all TDO's to push their own sessions would end up with this forum being one big advert. We'd have the announcement of the full calendar, the post for each event and then the final push for sales as each event gets closer. Not ideal and something we need to be mindful of.
Track day advertising is not a revenue generator of massive scale for PH, so we aren't trying to protect £££, more we are simply trying to avoid struggling TDO's from using the forums to promote continuously. We do still encourage them to use the (free) PH calendar though, as that provides a useful guide to what's happening. The rules haven't changed, and we haven't issued any new directives to clean up.
We speak to organisers quite regularly, and in the main it's a tough market at the moment. I used to attend track days myself a few years ago but money is spent more carefully these days and the entrance fee, fuel, tyre and brake wear is a luxury not all can afford. Some companies continue to be successful, but I'd imagine market conditions affects things more than a post on PH does right now.
At the risk of repeating myself, a member who has no involvement with a company can post about track days they are attending, that's fine and always will be. Blatant attempts to promote will always be removed, as they would be on any other forum
scz4 said:
Scotland desperately needs a second track (or an extension to Knockhill), but the market would suggest there isn't the demand.
I know....I keep playing the Euromillions but it's just not happening!The suggestion of a sticky in the Scotland section with track days sounds good....one place that everyone can see the dates without the need for extra posts.
We have something similar on our forum with the SIDC, Dreadnaught days, Knockhill days etc
http://www.trackscotland.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.ph...
I only read the Porsche forum and the Scotland one on here for chat and banter, I love the track days and it bugs me when the posts are removed. The Scotland forum is not so busy we can't have the track chat on here, so someone with the knowledge put a sticky at the top, then as the date gets close we can post our own thread about what Scottish folk are going....... I had a great time tonight and look forward to the next one :-)
i replied to this early on but my thread seems to have vanished... i dont have the heart to type it all again, but very much in support of the general feeling.
PH whether you like it or not, you have a huge influence on peoples decisions to go to these events in Scotland. This is the introduction to motorsports for those north of the border as there is sod all else and the single biggest gathering of scottish car nuts (at a guess).
PH whether you like it or not, you have a huge influence on peoples decisions to go to these events in Scotland. This is the introduction to motorsports for those north of the border as there is sod all else and the single biggest gathering of scottish car nuts (at a guess).
Piston heads is the most communal form I use (i.e. not marque specific) so it is a good source of what’s happing in the petrol head community in Scotland for car shows/track days etc.
I have noticed the deletion of KH threads, and as Piston Heads would not exist as a commercial entity without it’s users they should listen to them review how they deal trackday/meet threads in the Scottish Section.
Jason
I have noticed the deletion of KH threads, and as Piston Heads would not exist as a commercial entity without it’s users they should listen to them review how they deal trackday/meet threads in the Scottish Section.
Jason
I think there are two very different angles to this conversation going on at once.
1. Pistonheads and their policy to advertising trackdays etc
2. Decline of trackday attendances in Scotland
With regards to PH, I think the best thing to do is ask Mr Garlick for a sticky at the top of Scotland page, with an updateable list of trackdays (stickiwicki thing) or add these to the existing callander, with a trackdays thread stuck seperately aswell.
This would allow all dates to be seen/advertised without all the mess in the wicki thing and a stuck thread for the usual who's going, pictures, who did what nonsense we all post.
Surely this would be a good solution and keep everybody happy.
With regards to track attendances I have a few thoughts,
Easy one being current decline is bound to be in part due to the recession and less free cash for us all to spend on luxuries such as trackdays, fuel, tyres.
Boredom and complacency with KH being the only track in scotland is also voiced but to be honest that doesnt really work for me. Yes its the same old track but I know guys whove been going for years and are still chasing pb's, trying different lines, and who out of us doesnt want to be able to learn Andy G's "end of the rack and back" drift / powerslides out of the hairpin.
On the KH front I'm also amazed at the poor turnout in the rain, all the best laughs Ive had have either been sliding around or banter in the garage as we all shelter from the weather. KH is all about attitude, make new friends, have some banter chase a pb, do whatever but enjoy it.
Finally, and this is the difficult one. The main problem with declining track days is grass roots development. I feel Ive been lucky and entered trackdays through an amazing bunch of folk at Scottish elises, these guys and SIDC have great track days where everybody is there to help you learn and encourage you.
I wanted to go for years but was always put off by the tarmac terrorsit squad, weve all seen the hot hatch attendees, the guys were really quick but not very accomodating to slow guys and then you got the poor drivers in the sheds that were reckless.
What we need is more friendly club days and beginner/access days to encourage people to try these events, as many of you know or are finding out once you get on track its fantastic. We just need to make it less intimidating and find new ways to encourage 1st timers to have a safe , fun and relaxed experience and they will be back for sure.
The ironic bit is a lot of the guys who are selfish on track will ultimately ruin it for themselves as numbers decline to a point trackdays are not sustainable unless mega expensive. What we need is more exposure to SE/SIDC/Dreadnought and their patrons like Mass, Kayfur, AndyG and countless others to make these days enjoyable and people want to return. I'd like to see a few newbie nights to generate more newbies, a couple of seasons supporting these nights surely could only be good.
Rant Over!!
1. Pistonheads and their policy to advertising trackdays etc
2. Decline of trackday attendances in Scotland
With regards to PH, I think the best thing to do is ask Mr Garlick for a sticky at the top of Scotland page, with an updateable list of trackdays (stickiwicki thing) or add these to the existing callander, with a trackdays thread stuck seperately aswell.
This would allow all dates to be seen/advertised without all the mess in the wicki thing and a stuck thread for the usual who's going, pictures, who did what nonsense we all post.
Surely this would be a good solution and keep everybody happy.
With regards to track attendances I have a few thoughts,
Easy one being current decline is bound to be in part due to the recession and less free cash for us all to spend on luxuries such as trackdays, fuel, tyres.
Boredom and complacency with KH being the only track in scotland is also voiced but to be honest that doesnt really work for me. Yes its the same old track but I know guys whove been going for years and are still chasing pb's, trying different lines, and who out of us doesnt want to be able to learn Andy G's "end of the rack and back" drift / powerslides out of the hairpin.
On the KH front I'm also amazed at the poor turnout in the rain, all the best laughs Ive had have either been sliding around or banter in the garage as we all shelter from the weather. KH is all about attitude, make new friends, have some banter chase a pb, do whatever but enjoy it.
Finally, and this is the difficult one. The main problem with declining track days is grass roots development. I feel Ive been lucky and entered trackdays through an amazing bunch of folk at Scottish elises, these guys and SIDC have great track days where everybody is there to help you learn and encourage you.
I wanted to go for years but was always put off by the tarmac terrorsit squad, weve all seen the hot hatch attendees, the guys were really quick but not very accomodating to slow guys and then you got the poor drivers in the sheds that were reckless.
What we need is more friendly club days and beginner/access days to encourage people to try these events, as many of you know or are finding out once you get on track its fantastic. We just need to make it less intimidating and find new ways to encourage 1st timers to have a safe , fun and relaxed experience and they will be back for sure.
The ironic bit is a lot of the guys who are selfish on track will ultimately ruin it for themselves as numbers decline to a point trackdays are not sustainable unless mega expensive. What we need is more exposure to SE/SIDC/Dreadnought and their patrons like Mass, Kayfur, AndyG and countless others to make these days enjoyable and people want to return. I'd like to see a few newbie nights to generate more newbies, a couple of seasons supporting these nights surely could only be good.
Rant Over!!
flipflop1 said:
I think there are two very different angles to this conversation going on at once.
1. Pistonheads and their policy to advertising trackdays etc
2. Decline of trackday attendances in Scotland
With regards to PH, I think the best thing to do is ask Mr Garlick for a sticky at the top of Scotland page, with an updateable list of trackdays (stickiwicki thing) or add these to the existing callander, with a trackdays thread stuck seperately aswell.
This would allow all dates to be seen/advertised without all the mess in the wicki thing and a stuck thread for the usual who's going, pictures, who did what nonsense we all post.
Surely this would be a good solution and keep everybody happy.
With regards to track attendances I have a few thoughts,
Easy one being current decline is bound to be in part due to the recession and less free cash for us all to spend on luxuries such as trackdays, fuel, tyres.
Boredom and complacency with KH being the only track in scotland is also voiced but to be honest that doesnt really work for me. Yes its the same old track but I know guys whove been going for years and are still chasing pb's, trying different lines, and who out of us doesnt want to be able to learn Andy G's "end of the rack and back" drift / powerslides out of the hairpin.
On the KH front I'm also amazed at the poor turnout in the rain, all the best laughs Ive had have either been sliding around or banter in the garage as we all shelter from the weather. KH is all about attitude, make new friends, have some banter chase a pb, do whatever but enjoy it.
Finally, and this is the difficult one. The main problem with declining track days is grass roots development. I feel Ive been lucky and entered trackdays through an amazing bunch of folk at Scottish elises, these guys and SIDC have great track days where everybody is there to help you learn and encourage you.
I wanted to go for years but was always put off by the tarmac terrorsit squad, weve all seen the hot hatch attendees, the guys were really quick but not very accomodating to slow guys and then you got the poor drivers in the sheds that were reckless.
What we need is more friendly club days and beginner/access days to encourage people to try these events, as many of you know or are finding out once you get on track its fantastic. We just need to make it less intimidating and find new ways to encourage 1st timers to have a safe , fun and relaxed experience and they will be back for sure.
The ironic bit is a lot of the guys who are selfish on track will ultimately ruin it for themselves as numbers decline to a point trackdays are not sustainable unless mega expensive. What we need is more exposure to SE/SIDC/Dreadnought and their patrons like Mass, Kayfur, AndyG and countless others to make these days enjoyable and people want to return. I'd like to see a few newbie nights to generate more newbies, a couple of seasons supporting these nights surely could only be good.
Rant Over!!
I can only comment on point 2 made here.1. Pistonheads and their policy to advertising trackdays etc
2. Decline of trackday attendances in Scotland
With regards to PH, I think the best thing to do is ask Mr Garlick for a sticky at the top of Scotland page, with an updateable list of trackdays (stickiwicki thing) or add these to the existing callander, with a trackdays thread stuck seperately aswell.
This would allow all dates to be seen/advertised without all the mess in the wicki thing and a stuck thread for the usual who's going, pictures, who did what nonsense we all post.
Surely this would be a good solution and keep everybody happy.
With regards to track attendances I have a few thoughts,
Easy one being current decline is bound to be in part due to the recession and less free cash for us all to spend on luxuries such as trackdays, fuel, tyres.
Boredom and complacency with KH being the only track in scotland is also voiced but to be honest that doesnt really work for me. Yes its the same old track but I know guys whove been going for years and are still chasing pb's, trying different lines, and who out of us doesnt want to be able to learn Andy G's "end of the rack and back" drift / powerslides out of the hairpin.
On the KH front I'm also amazed at the poor turnout in the rain, all the best laughs Ive had have either been sliding around or banter in the garage as we all shelter from the weather. KH is all about attitude, make new friends, have some banter chase a pb, do whatever but enjoy it.
Finally, and this is the difficult one. The main problem with declining track days is grass roots development. I feel Ive been lucky and entered trackdays through an amazing bunch of folk at Scottish elises, these guys and SIDC have great track days where everybody is there to help you learn and encourage you.
I wanted to go for years but was always put off by the tarmac terrorsit squad, weve all seen the hot hatch attendees, the guys were really quick but not very accomodating to slow guys and then you got the poor drivers in the sheds that were reckless.
What we need is more friendly club days and beginner/access days to encourage people to try these events, as many of you know or are finding out once you get on track its fantastic. We just need to make it less intimidating and find new ways to encourage 1st timers to have a safe , fun and relaxed experience and they will be back for sure.
The ironic bit is a lot of the guys who are selfish on track will ultimately ruin it for themselves as numbers decline to a point trackdays are not sustainable unless mega expensive. What we need is more exposure to SE/SIDC/Dreadnought and their patrons like Mass, Kayfur, AndyG and countless others to make these days enjoyable and people want to return. I'd like to see a few newbie nights to generate more newbies, a couple of seasons supporting these nights surely could only be good.
Rant Over!!
I've been lucky enough to have attended track days across the country, however my closest track is Knockhill, I live in Dunfermline and often cycle upto the track to see whats going on.
The few track evenings i've done at KH have been, to be polite, frustrating.
KH is the most poorly marshalled track day/evening i've been to. My last track evening i saw people being over taken on the right, guys point blank refusing to pull over to allow over taking and on my last visit spectating i saw 2 evo's repeatedly running bumper to bumper up the straight past the pits.
When i mentioned the undertaking to someone i was told 'He always does that, he's here all the time'
Antics like this would simply not be tolerated at a BaT event or similar, however thay seem to be tolerated at KH.
KH is in a very unique position being the only track in Scotland and if they wish to attract more new comers to track days/evenings they must take more responsibility for the antics on track and police it better.
Gassing Station | Scotland | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff