The A9 thread.
Discussion
OK bit of background first.
I have now travelled to work on the lower A9 Perth to Dunkeld section [possibly further North in the near future] for a calendar year.
This time has allowed me to comprehensibly study the traffic patterns at different times of the day throughout the year.
Even when "quiet" [usually due to a road closure due to an accident upstream/downstream] it is extremely deceptive.
Visibility varies with season and what part of the road you are on, some locations hold moisture and remain misty/foggy even during reasonably warm days, available tyre grip can vary enormously between journey's start and end.
Seemingly long sweeping bends suddenly compress with closing speeds of 120 mph [minimum], add in cyclist[s] puffing their way along the single carriage verges at 5PM and you have a 120mph game of dodgems, FACT.
A seemingly endless amount of haphazard junctions, all located from when the road was originally laid. Some have been improved, but this itself can be a trap for the unwary or those lacking in observational driving skills.
Traffic type varies enormously from pedestrians to 48 tonners.
Frustration is almost guaranteed when even those driving at or slightly below the NSL run in behind the 40mph limited tankers.
Queues form behind, leading to even more frustration and also from those waiting to join the road from a junction [22.5 minutes, A823 on to A9 at Dunkeld trying to head southbound, is our works record so far!] which is not a good situation I think you would agree.
Add in elephant racing in those short sections that are duelled and the frustration drivers feel only gets greater = more risk taking.
Drivers on this road actually fall into three very distinct categories.
1. Those that have seen the effects and drive [very] defensively, 2. those that think they are invincible no matter what and finally 3. those that seemingly are on another planet.
Example, Friday, 0730 ish, thick fog, trailing a honda civic @40 ish [good separation for the vis] when on observing ahead [over the honda] there is suddenly two pairs of headlamps/foglights coming towards us, side by side in an overtaking position. I initiate instinctive heavy breaking [ABS] but the bloody Honda continues serenely on it's way before waking up, finally. Miss separation? under a second......and it was a people carrier of some kind......
Speeds. We drivers are constantly demonised over the application of excessive speed in unsuitable locations.
However despite all the rhetoric over excessive speed on the A9 and I will say there are some drivers who would not be able to justify their velocity at some locations on this road, in general, it is NOT those that travel at the nsl's who are the problem, it is those who, through legislation, cannot do this, and those who also obstruct the short sections of dual with their 1-2 mph overtakes.
The way ahead? obviously dual the entire road [bridges excepted obviously] with limited vehicles kept to the LH lane. And controversially If these set of improvements/restrictions go ahead, YES to average speed cameras at 60 & 70 to match the road.
Right nomex on.
Mo.
I have now travelled to work on the lower A9 Perth to Dunkeld section [possibly further North in the near future] for a calendar year.
This time has allowed me to comprehensibly study the traffic patterns at different times of the day throughout the year.
Even when "quiet" [usually due to a road closure due to an accident upstream/downstream] it is extremely deceptive.
Visibility varies with season and what part of the road you are on, some locations hold moisture and remain misty/foggy even during reasonably warm days, available tyre grip can vary enormously between journey's start and end.
Seemingly long sweeping bends suddenly compress with closing speeds of 120 mph [minimum], add in cyclist[s] puffing their way along the single carriage verges at 5PM and you have a 120mph game of dodgems, FACT.
A seemingly endless amount of haphazard junctions, all located from when the road was originally laid. Some have been improved, but this itself can be a trap for the unwary or those lacking in observational driving skills.
Traffic type varies enormously from pedestrians to 48 tonners.
Frustration is almost guaranteed when even those driving at or slightly below the NSL run in behind the 40mph limited tankers.
Queues form behind, leading to even more frustration and also from those waiting to join the road from a junction [22.5 minutes, A823 on to A9 at Dunkeld trying to head southbound, is our works record so far!] which is not a good situation I think you would agree.
Add in elephant racing in those short sections that are duelled and the frustration drivers feel only gets greater = more risk taking.
Drivers on this road actually fall into three very distinct categories.
1. Those that have seen the effects and drive [very] defensively, 2. those that think they are invincible no matter what and finally 3. those that seemingly are on another planet.
Example, Friday, 0730 ish, thick fog, trailing a honda civic @40 ish [good separation for the vis] when on observing ahead [over the honda] there is suddenly two pairs of headlamps/foglights coming towards us, side by side in an overtaking position. I initiate instinctive heavy breaking [ABS] but the bloody Honda continues serenely on it's way before waking up, finally. Miss separation? under a second......and it was a people carrier of some kind......
Speeds. We drivers are constantly demonised over the application of excessive speed in unsuitable locations.
However despite all the rhetoric over excessive speed on the A9 and I will say there are some drivers who would not be able to justify their velocity at some locations on this road, in general, it is NOT those that travel at the nsl's who are the problem, it is those who, through legislation, cannot do this, and those who also obstruct the short sections of dual with their 1-2 mph overtakes.
The way ahead? obviously dual the entire road [bridges excepted obviously] with limited vehicles kept to the LH lane. And controversially If these set of improvements/restrictions go ahead, YES to average speed cameras at 60 & 70 to match the road.
Right nomex on.
Mo.
On any other road I'd say keep HGVs at their 40 limit, they're easier to overtake the slower they go.
But the A9 is so busy for the class of road, and people these days are so incompetent at overtaking, that massive trains would just form behind them as they do now. So derestrict them and let them do 56 (which on most inaccurate car speedos will appear near enough to 60) to appease people. The difference between 56 and 60mph is negligible over say, Perth to Inverness.
Of course you'll always get some photocopier salesman who must get to Inverness 5 minutes earlier and will put his TDImagine into the face of oncoming traffic on blind bends to do it - so whack average speed cameras up and set the cutoff to 70/80 single/dual.
Summary roadside execution for anyone that isn't maintaining a decent gap to either allow overtakes, or let people out of junctions.
But the A9 is so busy for the class of road, and people these days are so incompetent at overtaking, that massive trains would just form behind them as they do now. So derestrict them and let them do 56 (which on most inaccurate car speedos will appear near enough to 60) to appease people. The difference between 56 and 60mph is negligible over say, Perth to Inverness.
Of course you'll always get some photocopier salesman who must get to Inverness 5 minutes earlier and will put his TDImagine into the face of oncoming traffic on blind bends to do it - so whack average speed cameras up and set the cutoff to 70/80 single/dual.
Summary roadside execution for anyone that isn't maintaining a decent gap to either allow overtakes, or let people out of junctions.
You know the more likely solution would be average speed camera's without dualling the road. In my mind that would be the worst possible solution. It's bad enough that 5 to 10 years ago some of the safer overtaking spots got GATSOs on them.
If the whole road was dualled I don't think you'd need the cameras. Traffic flow would be better. You don't hear of the A90 being as big a problem as the A9 and I bet a large part of that is the dual carraigeway and the ability to overtake safely. I'm sure there'd still be some issues on the A9 though because of the type of traffic :- ie tourists looking at scenery not at the road etc.
If the whole road was dualled I don't think you'd need the cameras. Traffic flow would be better. You don't hear of the A90 being as big a problem as the A9 and I bet a large part of that is the dual carraigeway and the ability to overtake safely. I'm sure there'd still be some issues on the A9 though because of the type of traffic :- ie tourists looking at scenery not at the road etc.
k the speed cameras, have a device set up that books anyone within 1 second of the vehicle in front.It`s not the road but the idiots that drive it that cause the majority of accidents.
I travel this road daily,mostly from Pitlochry to Perth but often from Perth to Inverness and the standard of driving is really atrocious,people don`t know how or when to overtake,lane discipline is absolutely nil and the wonderfull scenery seems to slow the majority of drivers and their IQ`S to walking pace which leads to major frustration combined with the fact when you encounter a reasonable overtaking spot,what do you see ahead? thats right A bloody scamera van.
So its no surprise that King Alex wants to Dual the whole bloody road under a safety guise,its much the same as his wind farm policy all Guff and designed to relieve you of your last penny, Average speed cameras will be much cheaper and add much more to his coffers for the up coming referendum.
Here`s a novel thought,why not just prosecute Bad Driving instead of blaming speeding for everything.
Rant over and not even one swear word.
I travel this road daily,mostly from Pitlochry to Perth but often from Perth to Inverness and the standard of driving is really atrocious,people don`t know how or when to overtake,lane discipline is absolutely nil and the wonderfull scenery seems to slow the majority of drivers and their IQ`S to walking pace which leads to major frustration combined with the fact when you encounter a reasonable overtaking spot,what do you see ahead? thats right A bloody scamera van.
So its no surprise that King Alex wants to Dual the whole bloody road under a safety guise,its much the same as his wind farm policy all Guff and designed to relieve you of your last penny, Average speed cameras will be much cheaper and add much more to his coffers for the up coming referendum.
Here`s a novel thought,why not just prosecute Bad Driving instead of blaming speeding for everything.
Rant over and not even one swear word.
OlberJ said:
I would be dead set against having people pay more attention to their Speedo than the road anywhere but especially the a9.
But many already do on the A9? You only have to look at the morons who panic brake down to 60 on the dualled sections when they see a camera. It's littered with GATSO and Scamera vans on the overtaking stretches - christ I've passed the Northern scam van at 7pm on a Sunday evening near Aviemore, they really have nothing better to do. Problem is this just makes the impatient types overtake at the most ridiculous and unsuitable of places instead, where they know they won't get caught. Yet at the same time, it's a road where speeds really do need to be managed - if it was a free-for-all, there would be carnage at all the at-grade junctions.
It's the one place where Average Speed cams are probably the lesser of two evils - because you will never be able to educate every driver going up and down the A9 to keep a safe distance and allow for overtaking (which as we all agree would probably fix the road in an instant). People are just too stupid, and there ain't enough traffic cops to go around.
Read this.
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/a9dualling#
This was actually a manifesto commitment of the SNP when they formed a minority administration in 2007 but the proposal was blocked by the other parties in the parliament. That, coupled with the current recession and dramatic spending cuts imposed by Westminster, means the aim of dualling the road all the way to Inverness will take a lot longer than everyone had hoped.
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/a9dualling#
This was actually a manifesto commitment of the SNP when they formed a minority administration in 2007 but the proposal was blocked by the other parties in the parliament. That, coupled with the current recession and dramatic spending cuts imposed by Westminster, means the aim of dualling the road all the way to Inverness will take a lot longer than everyone had hoped.
Edited by drangular on Tuesday 23 October 12:21
And this gives an idea of the scale and complexity of the overall project. This shows the issues that need to be addressed just dealing with access to Dunkeld rail station at Birnam!.
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/files/document...
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/files/document...
Edited by drangular on Tuesday 23 October 12:39
Sorry but average speed cameras are the spawn of satan and I cannot believe that anyone with a driving licence could ever entertain the idea of the very existence of these yellow vultures, never mind have them on a road the length of the A9!! I'm guessing (prob wrongly) that you might drive an HGV and if so I am really going to pee you off, I blame them for the majority of the problems on the A9 specifically driving for tens of miles at 40mph passing big roadside signs saying "frustration causes accidents" and marked lay by's, but plough on regardless like some kind of mechanical pied piper, that's when you see the desperate overtakes starting! Supermarkets need to give these guys extra time to allow them to pull over occasionally to allow the queues to clear, speeding is a very small factor in any type of accidents and I would say that this is no different as far as the A9 is concerned. I would be curious to know if there were any in the vicinity of these accidents to see if the frustration was a bigger factor than thought? The road is for the most part very safe to do high speeds on outwith the peak times obviously and has some wonderful cross views to allow overtakes of epic proportion to those with sound forward planning (which perhaps could look wreckless to those who don't?) Years ago it was highlighted that "wrong siders" were a contibutor to accidents as people were unsure when faced with no traffic for a while whether they were still on d/c or not? so they put up loads of two way traffic signs and that seemed to work, also the multi lingual "keep to the left" signs helped. I don't think the road is the "killer road" that is made out to be but as usual the knee jerk "speed kills" mob use it as an excuse rather than grasp the nettle and improve driving standards (none of which can be done by camera) And breathe!! 
Gary
Gary
Don't blame the truckers - they are moving stuff that people need.
Caravaners and sightseers are a bigger issue - just as slow, generally not as good a driver as a trucker, and contributing little or nothing en-route or when they arrive, having filled the "van" at their local Tesco before they set off.
It would be lovely to have a dual carriageway for real traffic and a scenic road for the rest, but back in the real world there isn't the money for both, and the adjacent railway line doesn't have the capacity to transfer freight onto.
Instead of moaning about the priorities that the SNP have chosen to set (new Forth Crossing etc) why not mention the Lab/Lib years when they COULD have done more on the A9 but preferred to go with pointless trams, or the Tories who opposed most of what has been done/is proposed on the A9? Or maybe we could have a trailer-tax - fit a GPS tracker to monitor use and use the money to upgrade the roads they are causing delays on?
Flame suit on...
Caravaners and sightseers are a bigger issue - just as slow, generally not as good a driver as a trucker, and contributing little or nothing en-route or when they arrive, having filled the "van" at their local Tesco before they set off.
It would be lovely to have a dual carriageway for real traffic and a scenic road for the rest, but back in the real world there isn't the money for both, and the adjacent railway line doesn't have the capacity to transfer freight onto.
Instead of moaning about the priorities that the SNP have chosen to set (new Forth Crossing etc) why not mention the Lab/Lib years when they COULD have done more on the A9 but preferred to go with pointless trams, or the Tories who opposed most of what has been done/is proposed on the A9? Or maybe we could have a trailer-tax - fit a GPS tracker to monitor use and use the money to upgrade the roads they are causing delays on?
Flame suit on...
I had a rather pleasurable ride up the A9 to loch ness and honestly if you are not in a hurry its a great road to drive. There are more overtaking parts via dual carriageway and (of course) everyone takes full advantage of it - including me hitting 100 which i didn't notice (the really long one thats downhill).
To state what I think - the road is fine its the impatient idiots that cause the problems and I was one about 20 years ago in a terrible 1.5l diesel corsa with no power. Whilst having full 2 lanes the whole way would solve the issues it would create one massive issue of cost and not sure even possible without a stupidly high amount of cost at some places.
Chill pills should be issued at each part of the A9
To state what I think - the road is fine its the impatient idiots that cause the problems and I was one about 20 years ago in a terrible 1.5l diesel corsa with no power. Whilst having full 2 lanes the whole way would solve the issues it would create one massive issue of cost and not sure even possible without a stupidly high amount of cost at some places.
Chill pills should be issued at each part of the A9
GoneAnon said:
Don't blame the truckers - they are moving stuff that people need.
Caravaners and sightseers are a bigger issue - just as slow, generally not as good a driver as a trucker, and contributing little or nothing en-route or when they arrive, having filled the "van" at their local Tesco before they set off.
It would be lovely to have a dual carriageway for real traffic and a scenic road for the rest, but back in the real world there isn't the money for both, and the adjacent railway line doesn't have the capacity to transfer freight onto.
Instead of moaning about the priorities that the SNP have chosen to set (new Forth Crossing etc) why not mention the Lab/Lib years when they COULD have done more on the A9 but preferred to go with pointless trams, or the Tories who opposed most of what has been done/is proposed on the A9? Or maybe we could have a trailer-tax - fit a GPS tracker to monitor use and use the money to upgrade the roads they are causing delays on?
+1 --oh and a caravan tax
Flame suit on...
Caravaners and sightseers are a bigger issue - just as slow, generally not as good a driver as a trucker, and contributing little or nothing en-route or when they arrive, having filled the "van" at their local Tesco before they set off.
It would be lovely to have a dual carriageway for real traffic and a scenic road for the rest, but back in the real world there isn't the money for both, and the adjacent railway line doesn't have the capacity to transfer freight onto.
Instead of moaning about the priorities that the SNP have chosen to set (new Forth Crossing etc) why not mention the Lab/Lib years when they COULD have done more on the A9 but preferred to go with pointless trams, or the Tories who opposed most of what has been done/is proposed on the A9? Or maybe we could have a trailer-tax - fit a GPS tracker to monitor use and use the money to upgrade the roads they are causing delays on?
+1 --oh and a caravan tax
Flame suit on...
GoneAnon said:
Don't blame the truckers - they are moving stuff that people need.
Not saying that all truckers are good/band, or that all caravanners are good/bad, but if someone isn't driving as courteously as they should be, then they should be criticised.No matter if they're carring 20 tons of tatties, their family, themselves, Girls Aloud, whatever.
I was recently on the A9 from Perth to Aviemore (Early sat morning- 8-10am)
I dont tend to drive that road frequently, but I am aware of it's reputation.
In actual fact, the journey was extremely pleasant, and the standard of driving was ok.
I feel that the A9- like most other roads (M8/a8,a73/a71 etc) that have heavy traffic on them at commuting times would be much safer and less stressful if the majority of drivers on them paid attention!
People need to realise that they are complicit in roads being unsafe- without drivers, it's just be inert tarmac..
3 things really need addressed on the A9 (and some other major A roads):
1. Increasing awareness of appropriate speed- dry and bright- do the PSL where possible. you do *NOT* need to be doing 40mph because there is a corner in 300 yds! (obviously caveats apply for inclement condititions/vehicles not permitted to do PSL on single carriageways)
2. Implimentation of Dual carriage way sections on long straights (over 500m say) to allow for overtaking at higher speed (70mph limit, then merge back to 60mph single carriageway)
3. Improving driver awareness and responsibility! See trouble ahead- dont go hammering upto it, then slam on the brakes- slow in a controlled manner, in plenty of time- means not coming to a halt, and a less severe "accordion" scenario- hopefully reducing the number of traffic jams for no reason.
your opinions may vary! but I'd welcome thoughts?
I dont tend to drive that road frequently, but I am aware of it's reputation.
In actual fact, the journey was extremely pleasant, and the standard of driving was ok.
I feel that the A9- like most other roads (M8/a8,a73/a71 etc) that have heavy traffic on them at commuting times would be much safer and less stressful if the majority of drivers on them paid attention!
People need to realise that they are complicit in roads being unsafe- without drivers, it's just be inert tarmac..
3 things really need addressed on the A9 (and some other major A roads):
1. Increasing awareness of appropriate speed- dry and bright- do the PSL where possible. you do *NOT* need to be doing 40mph because there is a corner in 300 yds! (obviously caveats apply for inclement condititions/vehicles not permitted to do PSL on single carriageways)
2. Implimentation of Dual carriage way sections on long straights (over 500m say) to allow for overtaking at higher speed (70mph limit, then merge back to 60mph single carriageway)
3. Improving driver awareness and responsibility! See trouble ahead- dont go hammering upto it, then slam on the brakes- slow in a controlled manner, in plenty of time- means not coming to a halt, and a less severe "accordion" scenario- hopefully reducing the number of traffic jams for no reason.
your opinions may vary! but I'd welcome thoughts?
jaf01uk said:
I'm guessing (prob wrongly) that you might drive an HGV
Nope. I drive a combination of cars, vans and a motorbike up and down the length of the A9 on a regular basis (3/4 times a week for the past two years). jaf01uk said:
I blame them for the majority of the problems on the A9 specifically driving for tens of miles at 40mph passing big roadside signs saying "frustration causes accidents" and marked lay by's, but plough on regardless like some kind of mechanical pied piper, that's when you see the desperate overtakes starting!
Why not blame whoever set the 40mph limit, or the need-it-now consumer culture as the driving force behind these types of distribution, or the ever-present Scam vans which remove any discretion for the trucker to cruise above 40, or the stringent drivers hours regs.Or how about blaming the idiots who don't have the basic skill to overtake a vehicle moving at a reasonably easy speed! After all, the faster the trucks go, the longer it will take to pass them... and someone will always want to pass, be it at 40, 56, 60mph...
jaf01uk said:
Supermarkets need to give these guys extra time to allow them to pull over occasionally to allow the queues to clear
Supermarket lorries in my experiance are the best for pulling over or at least using signals to make overtakes easy on the A9. For me it oddly always seems to be tippers or livestock hauliers running on dodgy limiters, tailgating the wagon in front and causing the biggest holdups. jaf01uk said:
speeding is a very small factor in any type of accidents and I would say that this is no different as far as the A9 is concerned.
I'm not saying speed is the factor - I'm saying you can perhaps use the management of speed to discourage other behaviours. Let the lorries go faster to reduce frustration, but use mild speed management with a good bit of lee-way built-in to still allow overtaking, but also discourage those few that will always want past the lorry at any cost, even though the wagon is already doing 60mph. That isn't "frustration", it's sheer impatience and just as dangerous. jaf01uk said:
Years ago it was highlighted that "wrong siders" were a contibutor to accidents as people were unsure when faced with no traffic for a while whether they were still on d/c or not? so they put up loads of two way traffic signs and that seemed to work, also the multi lingual "keep to the left" signs helped.
Junctions I would imagine are a major cause now as well. Frustrated drivers waiting to pull out for 10 minutes who can't get a good gap in the train of traffic, so go for a marginal one instead. All because of the massive trains which form behind the limited vehicles.jaf01uk said:
I don't think the road is the "killer road" that is made out to be but as usual the knee jerk "speed kills" mob use it as an excuse rather than grasp the nettle and improve driving standards (none of which can be done by camera) And breathe!!
On the bike it's a great road. At night on four wheels it's a great road. During the day, even if I sit at 55-60mph in the van and either slow down (or just risk my licence 
) for the known hotspots, I still get people desperate for that extra 5mph, pulling suicidal overtakes where the view just is not there. Often because they notice late that they are in a good overtaking spot (because they are so close behind me and don't have the view), commit as soon as they do realise but no longer with enough room to spare before the bend/crest/oncoming/whatever. Invariably I meet them in the queue at Broxden 50 miles later. Madness. Ironically these are probably the self same people who would flash at me for using 'features' of the road (open sighted bends and the like) to create safe overtakes where no one else in the queue has the gumption to think more than 10ft in front if their bonnet.
You will never educate all of these people, with all the good will and money in the world. Just not gonna happen.
Of course everything above is entirely moot if they would just DUAL IT!
Bonzo, the lorry driver part was actually directed towards the OP but I agree with a lot of what you say just absolutely 100% NOT for average speed cameras because as you say at certain quieter periods of time NSL feels decidedly slow and I for one wouldn't fancy plodding along looking at my speedo for miles on an empty road with wide open bends and long straight (sometimes dual) sections, it's too mind numbingly boring to contemplate...
Gary
Gary
I don't see why more freight can't be on the train line that runs parallel. It would solve half of the A9's problems overnight without having to dual it.
What I have noticed with the a9 is that speed makes little difference. I've kept up with reps doing 80-90 (on clear bits) without breaking 65 (barring overtakes - I had lots of points and was keeping my speed down), because I was taking most safe overtaking opportunity's open to me, while they tailgated, getting frustrated and doing badly planned, risky and late overtaking maneuvers.
Of course it all changes at night where traffic is lighter you could theoretically average over 75 mph from Perth to Inverness.
Edit: Average speed cameras would be a terrible idea on the A9. To average 60 in normal traffic requires lots of overtaking and a liberal attitude to the speed limit, while at no individual point on that road does 60 feel anything but slow as molasses, disregarding bad weather.
What I have noticed with the a9 is that speed makes little difference. I've kept up with reps doing 80-90 (on clear bits) without breaking 65 (barring overtakes - I had lots of points and was keeping my speed down), because I was taking most safe overtaking opportunity's open to me, while they tailgated, getting frustrated and doing badly planned, risky and late overtaking maneuvers.
Of course it all changes at night where traffic is lighter you could theoretically average over 75 mph from Perth to Inverness.
Edit: Average speed cameras would be a terrible idea on the A9. To average 60 in normal traffic requires lots of overtaking and a liberal attitude to the speed limit, while at no individual point on that road does 60 feel anything but slow as molasses, disregarding bad weather.
Edited by clunkbox on Friday 26th October 01:17
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