Change to KH Track Days
Discussion
kmm said:
6C4GTS said:
Personally I love to see the big lambos etc coming out to blow cobwebs at KH. I think its the highlight during the Motorshow Day etc - just wish I had a car that qualified to run with them!
You'd have to learn how to drive too though Barry!!!for much of this year, anytime ive been there with my ferrari or porkers they were allowing more serious track users on at the same time thought their cars clearly didnt meet the hat marque financial requirement. as such there was a bunch of elises, some high end cars and a bunch of track only cars all on at once. it worked ok as everyone knew what they were up to for the most part which is really the only thing thats essential for feeling safe.
i always assumed the point of the car value cap was to keep the carnage from the hot hatch days from descending.
perhaps they are going to reword what the day is for in an effort to promote what seems to have been the operating procedure for a while. ive overheard quite a few people turning up with cars who dont want to run a hot hatch day but unsure whether they were allowed on or not.
if it is just a simple rebranding i wonder how they will achieve this effectively. maybe they will make it for over 30s haha
if its a true open session, ie anyone can get on and it ends up like hot hatch 2 then that will be a sad day indeed imho. im always happy to run with any car, but not happy to run with just any driver. for the most part their car value filter seemed effective.
any other day ive been there in the hope it might be quiet and i can run around for an hour or so, it just seemed to have drawn in every single car in scotland that you would avoid if you saw it on the road.
that being said, from a purely business perspective, running just hot hatch days would make them the most money. these are always attended in significant numbers and seem to also create peripheral revenue with the car parking and kiosks etc......... plus the tow truck keeps busy
will this leave only 3rd party track sessions as an option for many next year?
where did you hear this? i know the last one of the year was cancelled due to low numbers booked in. while im sure they are experienced in establishing the amount of cars that turn up on an actual day based on bookings made this seemed a bit strange. i know a few people who wanted to attend incl myself but given the time of year were all just going to decide on the day. i suspect that with a dry day it would have been as busy as any other.
i always assumed the point of the car value cap was to keep the carnage from the hot hatch days from descending.
perhaps they are going to reword what the day is for in an effort to promote what seems to have been the operating procedure for a while. ive overheard quite a few people turning up with cars who dont want to run a hot hatch day but unsure whether they were allowed on or not.
if it is just a simple rebranding i wonder how they will achieve this effectively. maybe they will make it for over 30s haha
if its a true open session, ie anyone can get on and it ends up like hot hatch 2 then that will be a sad day indeed imho. im always happy to run with any car, but not happy to run with just any driver. for the most part their car value filter seemed effective.
any other day ive been there in the hope it might be quiet and i can run around for an hour or so, it just seemed to have drawn in every single car in scotland that you would avoid if you saw it on the road.
that being said, from a purely business perspective, running just hot hatch days would make them the most money. these are always attended in significant numbers and seem to also create peripheral revenue with the car parking and kiosks etc......... plus the tow truck keeps busy
will this leave only 3rd party track sessions as an option for many next year?
where did you hear this? i know the last one of the year was cancelled due to low numbers booked in. while im sure they are experienced in establishing the amount of cars that turn up on an actual day based on bookings made this seemed a bit strange. i know a few people who wanted to attend incl myself but given the time of year were all just going to decide on the day. i suspect that with a dry day it would have been as busy as any other.
Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 11th December 02:03
As kind of said above - the whole idea of Hot Marques was really a "well behaved" track day - they wanted people to drive in a manner which indicated that they gave a s
t about their and others cars - so it was attitude and not really price, however the price thing scared away the barry boys from asking and gave KH an obvious way to disallow someone they thought might be a risk. I've done many hot marques and there's been plenty of Evo's, Scooby's, Elises, Old Pork etc which were valued way below the £15K.
However I think KH have seen dwindling numbers at the Hot Marques days - think this is a number of reasons, firstly I think driving standards have slipped, there are a regular hardcore of very quick but not particularly courteous drivers who turn up, I've heard many people mention it isn't pleasant being on track with them. I see KHs problem here, these guys turn up at every track day and pay their money, so do KH put them off to try and attract new drivers? There is a balance to be struck, but perhaps its going too far the wrong way.
Secondly - cost. The november session was still something like £90 for 4 hours open pit lane. In early november I got a full day at Oulton for £100 - for a winter session with a big chance of bad weather it was WAY too pricey, so people weren't taking the risk booking in advance. In general I know a lot of the Porsche guys who used to go to every hot marques have given it up - this would regularly see 4 to 5 cars at an event (about 10% of the participants) but the cost has creeped up to the point they'd rather do less days at bigger circuits down south. KH has to remember it is a small circuit with limited appeal, and the price has to reflect this - there's also a recession on. Track days in general are becoming more expensive with insurance, tyres, fuel etc all rocketing, unfortunately for the circuits I think they need to be a bit cheaper to ensure full days and early booking.
t about their and others cars - so it was attitude and not really price, however the price thing scared away the barry boys from asking and gave KH an obvious way to disallow someone they thought might be a risk. I've done many hot marques and there's been plenty of Evo's, Scooby's, Elises, Old Pork etc which were valued way below the £15K.However I think KH have seen dwindling numbers at the Hot Marques days - think this is a number of reasons, firstly I think driving standards have slipped, there are a regular hardcore of very quick but not particularly courteous drivers who turn up, I've heard many people mention it isn't pleasant being on track with them. I see KHs problem here, these guys turn up at every track day and pay their money, so do KH put them off to try and attract new drivers? There is a balance to be struck, but perhaps its going too far the wrong way.
Secondly - cost. The november session was still something like £90 for 4 hours open pit lane. In early november I got a full day at Oulton for £100 - for a winter session with a big chance of bad weather it was WAY too pricey, so people weren't taking the risk booking in advance. In general I know a lot of the Porsche guys who used to go to every hot marques have given it up - this would regularly see 4 to 5 cars at an event (about 10% of the participants) but the cost has creeped up to the point they'd rather do less days at bigger circuits down south. KH has to remember it is a small circuit with limited appeal, and the price has to reflect this - there's also a recession on. Track days in general are becoming more expensive with insurance, tyres, fuel etc all rocketing, unfortunately for the circuits I think they need to be a bit cheaper to ensure full days and early booking.
Personal opinion/choice... For Trackdays, I am done with taking my Porsche up to Knockhill, it's sad to say this as I will always support my local circuit but I now find very, very boring in comparison to some of the tracks we attend, it's so, so brutal on the cars tyres, brakes, etc, and with the price of these it starts becoming very, very expensive for let's face it a not so thrilling day.
I know I am dreaming here, but I would love to see the track slightly extended, I have been picturing it for years, a continuation of Duffas/Macintyres, then coming back in on itself, it has potential to be something special... As a track day, it really doesn't get my heart pounding, it's a real shame as I really love the place and all the staff.
I know I am dreaming here, but I would love to see the track slightly extended, I have been picturing it for years, a continuation of Duffas/Macintyres, then coming back in on itself, it has potential to be something special... As a track day, it really doesn't get my heart pounding, it's a real shame as I really love the place and all the staff.
GreigM said:
However I think KH have seen dwindling numbers at the Hot Marques days - think this is a number of reasons, firstly I think driving standards have slipped, there are a regular hardcore of very quick but not particularly courteous drivers who turn up, I've heard many people mention it isn't pleasant being on track with them. I see KHs problem here, these guys turn up at every track day and pay their money, so do KH put them off to try and attract new drivers? There is a balance to be struck, but perhaps its going too far the wrong way.
A particularly valid point996TT_STEVO said:
Personal opinion/choice... For Trackdays, I am done with taking my Porsche up to Knockhill, it's sad to say this as I will always support my local circuit but I now find very, very boring in comparison to some of the tracks we attend, it's so, so brutal on the cars tyres, brakes, etc, and with the price of these it starts becoming very, very expensive for let's face it a not so thrilling day.
As a track day, it really doesn't get my heart pounding, it's a real shame as I really love the place and all the staff.
Very much in agreementAs a track day, it really doesn't get my heart pounding, it's a real shame as I really love the place and all the staff.
Time Bandit said:
996TT_STEVO said:
Personal opinion/choice... For Trackdays, I am done with taking my Porsche up to Knockhill, it's sad to say this as I will always support my local circuit but I now find very, very boring in comparison to some of the tracks we attend, it's so, so brutal on the cars tyres, brakes, etc, and with the price of these it starts becoming very, very expensive for let's face it a not so thrilling day.
As a track day, it really doesn't get my heart pounding, it's a real shame as I really love the place and all the staff.
Very much in agreementAs a track day, it really doesn't get my heart pounding, it's a real shame as I really love the place and all the staff.
I've ran an old XR2 before that ultimately I didn't give a toss about, so was fine with having bigger faster cars bobbling about in my mirrors an inch from my bumper. Wouldn't take the Focus (hardly a prestige car but rare and my biggest automotive financial tie up) on as a result of those experiences.
agree with all the posts since mine further up, especially greig and stevo.
this year ive always gone on the basis that its easy to do so, that in my head atleast it must be better than shuffling around on a public road and as i like to support it. its a 30 minute drive tops depending on what car im taking over and i can be there and run around. for all its compromises, and there are many, its hard to beat that level of ready accessibility. it surely beats a night watching tv.
each time ive done so this year its been with a positive outlook but sadly each time left wishing i hadnt bothered for the two reasons they guys mentioned.
there were too many who felt it was their own track and they were in a race, not a communal event put on for fun and for various skillsets wanting to stretch their cars legs or get into track driving and drove accordingly. ie far too discourteously.
theres a time and a place for driving an inch from someones bumper and trying to overtake on the right repeatedly and its not when its clear its a brand new driver who didnt look like he was doing too badly. this isnt the way to encourage those new to the whole thing to come back. ofcourse mentioning to folk that they might want to back off on the cars that are piloted with clearly novice drivers was met with derision and the usual machismo. apparently the thought that they could just pit and go out again in 5 minutes when these novices were coming in for a rest was beyond comprehension. curiously ive yet to see the main culprits on starting grids anywhere and while it amuses me that many of the culprits seem to have cars unable to last more than a few laps before cooking something (ive yet to see any races run over a 5 lap distance) its little recompense for the abundant poor attitudes that seem to be on the rise.
the layout of knockhill is also not helpful to those with higher end cars. if youve driven a full size track rather than its 5-a-side format you will know exactly what i mean. it always makes for a frustrating time but you go there knowing this and accepting what it means while you bounce around in 2nd/3rd. it may be that the relentless march of car performance is seeing increasing numbers each year outgrow knockhills unique layout. i wonder how much of this plays a part. if its significant then it may be the onset of a worrying trend that could see knockhill visited only by bangers and vintage cars in the very near future.
i hope they put some thought into the reasons behind the falling numbers.
an extension to the track would be great. theres no reason they couldnt build this in such a way as they could run the new or the original track layouts depending on use. many others run full or partial layouts with ease. surely the bigger series in the UK that race there must be feeling that the track is no longer the draw it once was.
i truly hope they develop this year in such a way that theres options to get out on there without feeling you are just going to be nerfed by a demontweeks special. it will be a sad day for scotland if everyone has to go abroad or down south just to have a run around. especially with the increase of noise restrictions at many other tracks. ive nothing i can run on anywhere that strictly polices a 105db static.
this year ive always gone on the basis that its easy to do so, that in my head atleast it must be better than shuffling around on a public road and as i like to support it. its a 30 minute drive tops depending on what car im taking over and i can be there and run around. for all its compromises, and there are many, its hard to beat that level of ready accessibility. it surely beats a night watching tv.
each time ive done so this year its been with a positive outlook but sadly each time left wishing i hadnt bothered for the two reasons they guys mentioned.
there were too many who felt it was their own track and they were in a race, not a communal event put on for fun and for various skillsets wanting to stretch their cars legs or get into track driving and drove accordingly. ie far too discourteously.
theres a time and a place for driving an inch from someones bumper and trying to overtake on the right repeatedly and its not when its clear its a brand new driver who didnt look like he was doing too badly. this isnt the way to encourage those new to the whole thing to come back. ofcourse mentioning to folk that they might want to back off on the cars that are piloted with clearly novice drivers was met with derision and the usual machismo. apparently the thought that they could just pit and go out again in 5 minutes when these novices were coming in for a rest was beyond comprehension. curiously ive yet to see the main culprits on starting grids anywhere and while it amuses me that many of the culprits seem to have cars unable to last more than a few laps before cooking something (ive yet to see any races run over a 5 lap distance) its little recompense for the abundant poor attitudes that seem to be on the rise.
the layout of knockhill is also not helpful to those with higher end cars. if youve driven a full size track rather than its 5-a-side format you will know exactly what i mean. it always makes for a frustrating time but you go there knowing this and accepting what it means while you bounce around in 2nd/3rd. it may be that the relentless march of car performance is seeing increasing numbers each year outgrow knockhills unique layout. i wonder how much of this plays a part. if its significant then it may be the onset of a worrying trend that could see knockhill visited only by bangers and vintage cars in the very near future.
i hope they put some thought into the reasons behind the falling numbers.
an extension to the track would be great. theres no reason they couldnt build this in such a way as they could run the new or the original track layouts depending on use. many others run full or partial layouts with ease. surely the bigger series in the UK that race there must be feeling that the track is no longer the draw it once was.
i truly hope they develop this year in such a way that theres options to get out on there without feeling you are just going to be nerfed by a demontweeks special. it will be a sad day for scotland if everyone has to go abroad or down south just to have a run around. especially with the increase of noise restrictions at many other tracks. ive nothing i can run on anywhere that strictly polices a 105db static.
Edited by fioran0 on Monday 13th December 01:19
Some very good and well argued points guys. Thanks
The reason for the thread was to get some opinion or customer feedback that one of the guys on here close to KH could share with the KH staff.
Reading the above does not paint a rosey picture for next year.
Are the 3rd party days better policed - or do they self regulate?
Personally I do not have the garage space for a cheap bendable hot hatch to do the HH days (if you can't beat them join them?) so options would seem to be infrequent continent or south England trips.
Maybe sprint or hill cimbing where inter car contact is eliminated will be the new track day?
The reason for the thread was to get some opinion or customer feedback that one of the guys on here close to KH could share with the KH staff.
Reading the above does not paint a rosey picture for next year.
Are the 3rd party days better policed - or do they self regulate?
Personally I do not have the garage space for a cheap bendable hot hatch to do the HH days (if you can't beat them join them?) so options would seem to be infrequent continent or south England trips.
Maybe sprint or hill cimbing where inter car contact is eliminated will be the new track day?
glad to hear that there may be folk at KH who are willing to think about how this is implemented.
it would be a real loss for scotland to have nowhere one could seriously take a decent car for a stretch and i hope they come up with something that allows this to still happen.
i understand their business reasoning for doing it though, any visit to a hot hatch day shows just where the big numbers come from.
ive no idea about 3rd party days. i went to one once and it was no better than the hot marque evenings. much of the same cars there so the end result was very similar. it may just be that with the rise of these events KH feel this format allows the more expensive cars an opportunity to go on without they themsevles having to be exposed to putting on a night where only a handful of cars appear.
clearly theres much that could be better over at KH but i suspect a poll of any track facility carried out amongst locals would yield a list of areas for improvements. this shouldnt get in the way of the simple fact that it would still be a sad loss to many if there wasnt a platform there that allowed saner drivers out in an atmosphere thats similarly sane. i hope theres some compromise from them if hot marques is definately scrapped that still allows this.
even though its a small track that doesnt really let you get the most from it and at times theres a rather less than friendly atmosphere its still a track, its still local and its still open to the public with their own cars.
it would be a real loss for scotland to have nowhere one could seriously take a decent car for a stretch and i hope they come up with something that allows this to still happen.
i understand their business reasoning for doing it though, any visit to a hot hatch day shows just where the big numbers come from.
ive no idea about 3rd party days. i went to one once and it was no better than the hot marque evenings. much of the same cars there so the end result was very similar. it may just be that with the rise of these events KH feel this format allows the more expensive cars an opportunity to go on without they themsevles having to be exposed to putting on a night where only a handful of cars appear.
clearly theres much that could be better over at KH but i suspect a poll of any track facility carried out amongst locals would yield a list of areas for improvements. this shouldnt get in the way of the simple fact that it would still be a sad loss to many if there wasnt a platform there that allowed saner drivers out in an atmosphere thats similarly sane. i hope theres some compromise from them if hot marques is definately scrapped that still allows this.
even though its a small track that doesnt really let you get the most from it and at times theres a rather less than friendly atmosphere its still a track, its still local and its still open to the public with their own cars.
Edited by fioran0 on Monday 13th December 18:40
Bearing in mind the valuable feedback for KH in the thread above I have shared the commnets with Gemma the Events Development Manager who has provided the following helpful reply:
Firstly, thank you for highlighting this. We always welcome feedback, good or bad!!
When we first started Hot Marques car trackdays they were aimed at supercar marques, sports cars such as Lotus etc and prestige cars such as sporting BMWs, Audis and Mercs etc. If you look at the cars we get on HM now you will know that those types are probably only 50% of the cars! As you will probably already know our Hot Marques sessions have been fairly quiet this year. We decided to change the name to ‘Car Track Open session’ because ‘Hot Marques for cars over £15k’ is confusing! We thought that this would make more sense as that’s what it is!
We are not cancelling any Hot Marques we are really just trying to rebrand it so it becomes more of a ‘gentleman drivers trackday’. For example the lotus drivers – their cars are probably not over £15k but they are the HM type of drivers. We did try and say road cars only, however, that caused upset too because some people bring their cars on trailers. It’s very hard for us to please everyone!!!
What I do want to get across is that safety is the most important thing, we want drivers to come to Knockhill, enjoy a car trackday and drive their pride and joy home after it! Our rules on the ‘car trackday open sessions’ will be strict and we will make sure everyone on track respects other drivers. The key features on these days are that we actively promote limited numbers to provide quality track time, open track format to provide flexibility and driving standards are closely monitored.
I don’t want anyone to panic and start booking trackdays down south because we no longer have Hot Marques – we do, they’re are just called Car Trackdays now!
Firstly, thank you for highlighting this. We always welcome feedback, good or bad!!
When we first started Hot Marques car trackdays they were aimed at supercar marques, sports cars such as Lotus etc and prestige cars such as sporting BMWs, Audis and Mercs etc. If you look at the cars we get on HM now you will know that those types are probably only 50% of the cars! As you will probably already know our Hot Marques sessions have been fairly quiet this year. We decided to change the name to ‘Car Track Open session’ because ‘Hot Marques for cars over £15k’ is confusing! We thought that this would make more sense as that’s what it is!
We are not cancelling any Hot Marques we are really just trying to rebrand it so it becomes more of a ‘gentleman drivers trackday’. For example the lotus drivers – their cars are probably not over £15k but they are the HM type of drivers. We did try and say road cars only, however, that caused upset too because some people bring their cars on trailers. It’s very hard for us to please everyone!!!
What I do want to get across is that safety is the most important thing, we want drivers to come to Knockhill, enjoy a car trackday and drive their pride and joy home after it! Our rules on the ‘car trackday open sessions’ will be strict and we will make sure everyone on track respects other drivers. The key features on these days are that we actively promote limited numbers to provide quality track time, open track format to provide flexibility and driving standards are closely monitored.
I don’t want anyone to panic and start booking trackdays down south because we no longer have Hot Marques – we do, they’re are just called Car Trackdays now!
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