getting P****d off now
Discussion
Now the distributors FOOKED
Im gonna sell this soon and someones gonna get a good running car.. SAdly its bleeding me dry..
Distributor is now fooked.. Ive now officially changed everything.
According the tuner, its breaking down, running 4 cyls at idling and low revs and 8 after 2500revs.. The ecu is compensating for the way its running and is running high revs...
Anyway upshot is.. Now need a dizzy... Who is my best bet for a dizzy for a 1990-400SE
It could be for sale soon once running... Oh and ive got it booked in for a new hood too... So this will be a bobby dazler once finished as its just been resprayed too...
Yours
Mr Skint Grumpy
Im gonna sell this soon and someones gonna get a good running car.. SAdly its bleeding me dry..
Distributor is now fooked.. Ive now officially changed everything.
According the tuner, its breaking down, running 4 cyls at idling and low revs and 8 after 2500revs.. The ecu is compensating for the way its running and is running high revs...
Anyway upshot is.. Now need a dizzy... Who is my best bet for a dizzy for a 1990-400SE
It could be for sale soon once running... Oh and ive got it booked in for a new hood too... So this will be a bobby dazler once finished as its just been resprayed too...
Yours
Mr Skint Grumpy
Sorry I am not answering your dizzy question but I just thought I'd say that I know exactly how you feel. I am at the stage too where I feel like selling my 390.
It has had over a grand spent on it recently and after picking it up from the garage last night (another £186 for the brakes which still need the correct brake master cylinder as Rimmer bros sent me the wrong one) it decided to missfire all the way home. So that now needs looking at. It needs a new roof and thanks to my attempt at filling some marks on the body it now really needs a respray
Oh well..........
It has had over a grand spent on it recently and after picking it up from the garage last night (another £186 for the brakes which still need the correct brake master cylinder as Rimmer bros sent me the wrong one) it decided to missfire all the way home. So that now needs looking at. It needs a new roof and thanks to my attempt at filling some marks on the body it now really needs a respray
Oh well..........
Not a genuine one but I have fitted these to my past wedges and no trouble, took me into Europe twice covering over 6k with no issues
http://www.simonbbc.com/distributors/8cyl-distribu...
Cheers
Hamish
http://www.simonbbc.com/distributors/8cyl-distribu...
Cheers
Hamish
Simon you will not sell her you know it puts a big f***ing smile on your coupon when driving so if anything sort the little problems in engine first and put of hood until later [just explain to d&c, they'll understand] so check out Hamish's contact and take it from there.
Chin up
jonny.
Chin up
jonny.
simboy1973 said:
Distributor is now fooked......According the tuner, its breaking down, running 4 cyls at idling and low revs and 8 after 2500revs. The ecu is compensating for the way its running and is running high revs
Gosh! I wonder if the tuner knows how the Efi system works and how a distributor could cause running on 4 cyls only, and how the ECU can know that, and compensate accordingly. Expressed another way, it sounds a bit like - tosh.Generally its the ECU that can cause an Efi system to run only on 4 cyls because they usually fuel one bank at a time so such a symptom mostly points to the ECU, not the dissy.
If the system suddenly starts running on all 8 cyls over 2500 rpm then just maybe the ECU is able to respond to the faster "running signal" from coil negative, although it would be a new/unreported phenomenon IMO.
All the above is speaking generally, because I'm not sure if you are running a flapper or hotwire. Whichever, there are some things that an owner/enthusiast can do regarding simple testing of the typical RV8 ignition system. Have a read of these two articles and proceed accordingly, as instructed in the second one -
http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pages/Download...
http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pages/Download...
Going back to the possibility of it being an ECU fault, simple substitution with a known good unit is the usual course of action.
Hi Hamish. I saw the dizzy this afternoon and after many a phone call to everyone, I ordered a new dizzy from that company....
As for the check re the ECU connections, it's tomorrows job. I can't be bothered with it today. All I can do it check the connections as I don't know what else to do.
I will have a read of the above links though.
John, I love it. I'm sure it'll be fine once running and Yvonnes given me a couple of kidney punchinbox ring the night, but I've already put a deposit on a new hood, so needs to be running soon and I have a car show in may (if I get time off) so has to be running. But right now, I cannie be arsed wi it. I should have bought that MK3 MX5. Hey Hooooo!
Dizzy should be done on Saturday morning then a final tune..
Oh, it's a Hotwire system.. And while the car was hooked to the crypton machine I saw for my own eyes the spark spikes when running on 4 and 8 cylinders. I made them aware that enroute to the garage from home this morning, some 16 miles, I felt while idling at lights it wasn't running on all 8, but once you eventually pulled away it seemed to clear and run on 8 or there abouts! Yes, I know. strange As Hell, but that's what happened then the garage showed me the car running, idling on 4, rev it and it wakes up !!!!!!,! WLF
Arghhhhhhhh
As for the check re the ECU connections, it's tomorrows job. I can't be bothered with it today. All I can do it check the connections as I don't know what else to do.
I will have a read of the above links though.
John, I love it. I'm sure it'll be fine once running and Yvonnes given me a couple of kidney punchinbox ring the night, but I've already put a deposit on a new hood, so needs to be running soon and I have a car show in may (if I get time off) so has to be running. But right now, I cannie be arsed wi it. I should have bought that MK3 MX5. Hey Hooooo!
Dizzy should be done on Saturday morning then a final tune..
Oh, it's a Hotwire system.. And while the car was hooked to the crypton machine I saw for my own eyes the spark spikes when running on 4 and 8 cylinders. I made them aware that enroute to the garage from home this morning, some 16 miles, I felt while idling at lights it wasn't running on all 8, but once you eventually pulled away it seemed to clear and run on 8 or there abouts! Yes, I know. strange As Hell, but that's what happened then the garage showed me the car running, idling on 4, rev it and it wakes up !!!!!!,! WLF
Arghhhhhhhh
Oh one more thing for clarity.
When I first arrived at the garage I said its missing at low reves, while pulling away Fine they will look into it.
I also mentioned that the engine idled at 2000 when coming down to a junction then the car would idle poorly at 900/1000 ish while stationary. They thought the air valve on the plenum was possibly faulty.
Later they called me to say they found a fault that would lead them to believe a faulty dizzy. This is when they noticed the idling on 4 and running on 8 after 2000-ish revs. Yes strange. As previously described.
So their conclusion was fit a new dizzy. Fit it and you may find the air control valve is actually fine. Where as when I first arrived and described the drive in in stop start driving there could have been a problem with this valve.. They also think with this antique system, with the car running on 4 at idle, the ecu is raising the revs to compensate the lack of spark until it knows all 8 are firing. If that set up can be so clever, like a newer car.
If it was a newer car , you'd plug in a laptop and it would say what's wrong instead of change and replace and see how it runs. And so on!
Mind it not a flapper but a hot wire system.....
When I first arrived at the garage I said its missing at low reves, while pulling away Fine they will look into it.
I also mentioned that the engine idled at 2000 when coming down to a junction then the car would idle poorly at 900/1000 ish while stationary. They thought the air valve on the plenum was possibly faulty.
Later they called me to say they found a fault that would lead them to believe a faulty dizzy. This is when they noticed the idling on 4 and running on 8 after 2000-ish revs. Yes strange. As previously described.
So their conclusion was fit a new dizzy. Fit it and you may find the air control valve is actually fine. Where as when I first arrived and described the drive in in stop start driving there could have been a problem with this valve.. They also think with this antique system, with the car running on 4 at idle, the ecu is raising the revs to compensate the lack of spark until it knows all 8 are firing. If that set up can be so clever, like a newer car.
If it was a newer car , you'd plug in a laptop and it would say what's wrong instead of change and replace and see how it runs. And so on!
Mind it not a flapper but a hot wire system.....
I find it hard to believe that it is the dizzy at fault. All the dizzy does is distribute the spark on rotation of it's shaft via the rotor arm. Worst thing to go wrong inside it is the advance and retard mechanism may stop working. But that wouldn't cause it to run on 4 pots then 8 pots.
You've also said in a previous thread that by the state of the plugs it was running lean. If the spark wasn't working properly because of the dizzy then that would show up as fouled plugs, not lean or dry plugs.
Hope you haven't wasted money on a not needed dizzy. I would be looking at the fuel/air side of things then the ecu.
Hope it's sorted soon
You've also said in a previous thread that by the state of the plugs it was running lean. If the spark wasn't working properly because of the dizzy then that would show up as fouled plugs, not lean or dry plugs.
Hope you haven't wasted money on a not needed dizzy. I would be looking at the fuel/air side of things then the ecu.
Hope it's sorted soon
Hi Simon
What makes you think the dizy if fooked, have you had it out, if you do take it out have a good look at the drive gear at the end and also have a look at the gear off the cam shaft as this can wear and cause the dizy to jump timming as it happened to me.
You need to have a good look at these two areas.
As for the dizy, rather easy to strip, do you know whats fooked in it, the vac advance unit, the electronic pick up or the springs on the bobin weights.
If you want a chat pm me for my mob...
Chin up im sure you will get to the bottom of it
Cambelt
What makes you think the dizy if fooked, have you had it out, if you do take it out have a good look at the drive gear at the end and also have a look at the gear off the cam shaft as this can wear and cause the dizy to jump timming as it happened to me.
You need to have a good look at these two areas.
As for the dizy, rather easy to strip, do you know whats fooked in it, the vac advance unit, the electronic pick up or the springs on the bobin weights.
If you want a chat pm me for my mob...
Chin up im sure you will get to the bottom of it
Cambelt
The fuelling is now ok with the new AFM and adjust throttle sensor. (Hotwire) the fuelling was an issue, as previously mentioned, the colour of the plugs showed it was running lean, but it's now alledgedly running as per spec. But as with everything, one thing leads to another... One other issue on the last run was a pump starving the engine at higher revs. New pump and filter and that's no longer an issue..
According to the garage, they thing there's a issue advance weights, so a new dizzy with amp is enroute. I'll check the gear when I take the old one out. I was thinking about the mega jolt system but I don't have £400 at present.. As its tucked away in the new hood fund.
Basically, according to the lads, it's a healthy engine but it's just getting it to run right. Compressions ok etc.
So, we will just have to wait and see.. I'll check the ecu connections and try clean up, it might help. Johnnie said clean the resistors in the engine bay, not sure what they do but in for a penny and all that.
Si
According to the garage, they thing there's a issue advance weights, so a new dizzy with amp is enroute. I'll check the gear when I take the old one out. I was thinking about the mega jolt system but I don't have £400 at present.. As its tucked away in the new hood fund.
Basically, according to the lads, it's a healthy engine but it's just getting it to run right. Compressions ok etc.
So, we will just have to wait and see.. I'll check the ecu connections and try clean up, it might help. Johnnie said clean the resistors in the engine bay, not sure what they do but in for a penny and all that.
Si
TOPTON said:
You've also said in a previous thread that by the state of the plugs it was running lean.
If the engine is running lean at low rpm due to a rogue air leak into the plenum, and the performance improves as the rpm increases that would indicate that the air leak was quite small, yet significant at low rpm and much less significant at high rpm.Lumpy running caused by such a fault may fool any unsuspecting observer into thinking that it was simply misfiring - but in truth, any engine that is misfiring on 4 cyls is very unlikely to maintain idle speed anyway as each lost cyl loses about 150 to 200 rpm as a result of the lost energy and the fact that the remaining cylinders have to support the one that is compressing its mixture but not actually contributing anything. When you lose four cyls, the potential idle speed is all but gone completely.
So the more one examines the evidence advanced here, one can but wonder of the garage are reading the signs and symptoms logically or are being completely misled by their diagnostic equipment?
simboy1973 said:
One other issue on the last run was a pump starving the engine at higher revs. New pump and filter and that's no longer an issue
That's an interesting observation as to how the pump (including the filter of course) can make the engine run lean? An often seen reason would be crud in the pump and filter restricting fuel flow.When fitting a new pump and filter seemingly solved the problem it would be easy to conclude things would now be OK and continue thus.
But what if the source of crud still exists in the fuel tanks, and before too long, the pump and filter are struggling again, reverting to the lean running engine once again?
By itself, that does not explain all the symptoms reported but it does bring into question if the pump is really still OK.
Doesn't the hotwire system have a stepper motor though that adjusts the idle speed (by opening the throttle bypass passage?) - and the 14CUX ECU?
I think what might happen is the stepper motor opens up the bypass thus increasing the idle RPM until it's back up to 800-850. I agree it must have been quite wide though with only 4 pots running.
Anyhoo to diagnose the dizzy they should have been looking at coil primary pulses, timing etc, lets hope they got it right or that's a few hundred quid blown for no reason. Are you changing the whole dizzy including the cap and the ignition amplifier?
I think what might happen is the stepper motor opens up the bypass thus increasing the idle RPM until it's back up to 800-850. I agree it must have been quite wide though with only 4 pots running.
Anyhoo to diagnose the dizzy they should have been looking at coil primary pulses, timing etc, lets hope they got it right or that's a few hundred quid blown for no reason. Are you changing the whole dizzy including the cap and the ignition amplifier?
Hi Simon,
Having re read the post it is a really strange one, 4 dropping out and dizzy fault related to idle, I noted you have changed the fuel filter and pump due to blockage, I should have picked that up as I experienced similar issues but my was sporadic misfiring but firstly for diagnosing problems there should be a usb type plug in the loom either in the engine bay (My old 400) or near the ecu (Current 400) that you can plug in a diagnostic pc.
I took mine to a local independant landrover specialist when I had misfiring and cutting out issues, it pinpointed faulty injectors, sometimes a couple then a bank, thought ecu but I had that tested previously so the guy suggested I change injector, kindly he donated a used fuel rail with injectors FOC and he also lent me an ecu just in case I had issues when in Europe, top bloke.
When I took the fuel rail out it was full of crud, quite horrific actually seeing that stuff come out of the fuel rail. Anyhow, this crud was sporadically blocking the fuel line causing injector issues so after a full flush & clean out, new pump with bullet pre pump filter and post pump filter it felt like a totally new car.
Interestingly enough this was post BBWF when I had it on the roiling road, they pointed out that it was flagging after 4,500 rpm and running lean, still gave 284BHP so looking forward to seeing what it will do on the RR this year, maybe a couple of more ponies !!
Hopefully the dizzy does the trick
Good luck and keep the faith
Hamish
Having re read the post it is a really strange one, 4 dropping out and dizzy fault related to idle, I noted you have changed the fuel filter and pump due to blockage, I should have picked that up as I experienced similar issues but my was sporadic misfiring but firstly for diagnosing problems there should be a usb type plug in the loom either in the engine bay (My old 400) or near the ecu (Current 400) that you can plug in a diagnostic pc.
I took mine to a local independant landrover specialist when I had misfiring and cutting out issues, it pinpointed faulty injectors, sometimes a couple then a bank, thought ecu but I had that tested previously so the guy suggested I change injector, kindly he donated a used fuel rail with injectors FOC and he also lent me an ecu just in case I had issues when in Europe, top bloke.
When I took the fuel rail out it was full of crud, quite horrific actually seeing that stuff come out of the fuel rail. Anyhow, this crud was sporadically blocking the fuel line causing injector issues so after a full flush & clean out, new pump with bullet pre pump filter and post pump filter it felt like a totally new car.
Interestingly enough this was post BBWF when I had it on the roiling road, they pointed out that it was flagging after 4,500 rpm and running lean, still gave 284BHP so looking forward to seeing what it will do on the RR this year, maybe a couple of more ponies !!
Hopefully the dizzy does the trick
Good luck and keep the faith
Hamish
I was thinking about the Bullet Pre Filter... Maybe still do..
Dizzy and all, should be here any day and hopefully fitted Saturday... I've just stood on my head and got the ECU out... I dont what to look for. I put it back in and its still starting and running, poorly..
Its got Land Rover Stamped on it.. I believe this is all 4.0 Landie stuff..
As for crud, did you change all the fuel pipes? How did you flush it out... As for taking the fuel rail off, i've not had a good look at it so i'm not sure yet how it all comes off.. It'll have to be looked at next if the dizzy doesnt work... WHICH IT BL**DY BETTER OR ITS - WELL, lets not go there.. I'm pretty cheesed off with it so far.. When i bought it i thought it was going to be a quick fix,change all the elctrics and if need be a dizzy, tune and play...
Where is the plug for diagnostics.. I thought the cars were to old for diagnostic ports etc...
Dizzy and all, should be here any day and hopefully fitted Saturday... I've just stood on my head and got the ECU out... I dont what to look for. I put it back in and its still starting and running, poorly..
Its got Land Rover Stamped on it.. I believe this is all 4.0 Landie stuff..
As for crud, did you change all the fuel pipes? How did you flush it out... As for taking the fuel rail off, i've not had a good look at it so i'm not sure yet how it all comes off.. It'll have to be looked at next if the dizzy doesnt work... WHICH IT BL**DY BETTER OR ITS - WELL, lets not go there.. I'm pretty cheesed off with it so far.. When i bought it i thought it was going to be a quick fix,change all the elctrics and if need be a dizzy, tune and play...
Where is the plug for diagnostics.. I thought the cars were to old for diagnostic ports etc...
Edited by simboy1973 on Wednesday 14th March 20:06
Simon,
Appreciate the dilemma and how frustrating it is, trust me we have all been there and me recently with a intermediate starter issue, new starter, changed wiring and heyho turned out to be a build up of corrosion between the earth cable and battery terminal, who knew the cable/connector was less than a year old !!!
Anyhow not sure about the ECU, honestjohn or others will know but I believe the ecu was modified by TVR and chipped to suit the engine.
I'll take a picture of my diagnostic point tomorrow for you unless others beat me to it.
As for the crud basically the lines from pump to fuel rail are rubber so I removed them, ran fuel through them and blew them through once I saw nice clean fuel passing through. Fuel rail is not a huge job basically remove the plenum, trumpet base, remove a few 6mm screws and pull it off. If you go this route let me know, I have a bunch of seals for the hotwire injectors, suppliers will charge you £20 plus for a set, I picked up a bunch for a couple of quid that are petroleum resistance and to spec, contact in the oil industry sorted me out.
In all honesty it probably is a quick fix but as usual its finding the blasted thing first !!! Try the dizzy and give us a shout over the weekend if you want, I would say call jonny wedge but he will undoubtedly be on the rusties
Cheers
Hamish
Appreciate the dilemma and how frustrating it is, trust me we have all been there and me recently with a intermediate starter issue, new starter, changed wiring and heyho turned out to be a build up of corrosion between the earth cable and battery terminal, who knew the cable/connector was less than a year old !!!
Anyhow not sure about the ECU, honestjohn or others will know but I believe the ecu was modified by TVR and chipped to suit the engine.
I'll take a picture of my diagnostic point tomorrow for you unless others beat me to it.
As for the crud basically the lines from pump to fuel rail are rubber so I removed them, ran fuel through them and blew them through once I saw nice clean fuel passing through. Fuel rail is not a huge job basically remove the plenum, trumpet base, remove a few 6mm screws and pull it off. If you go this route let me know, I have a bunch of seals for the hotwire injectors, suppliers will charge you £20 plus for a set, I picked up a bunch for a couple of quid that are petroleum resistance and to spec, contact in the oil industry sorted me out.
In all honesty it probably is a quick fix but as usual its finding the blasted thing first !!! Try the dizzy and give us a shout over the weekend if you want, I would say call jonny wedge but he will undoubtedly be on the rusties
Cheers
Hamish
For Hotwire engines there is more info on the Griff site. You basically have a pre cat Griff 400 engine.
This item from the RV8 site talks about tickover and the stepper motor.
http://www.rv8r.co.uk/tickover.html
Hope you get sorted soon
This item from the RV8 site talks about tickover and the stepper motor.
http://www.rv8r.co.uk/tickover.html
Hope you get sorted soon
Here the Crypton from Monday.
Top is showing 8 spikes - 8 sparks @ 2118 RPM
Middle is idle @ 1073 RPM - only 4 sparks
Bottom, back over 2200 RPM - all 8, healthy-ish sparks...
So i dont think its a fueling issue..
I got a new dizzy and cable for the new amp today,and new leads arrive tomorrow, all from simonbbc - sadly the cap is very poor quality and doesnt fit at all. I've mailed him and asked him to send a new one... My old one is a perfect fit but not in great nic inside, i want it all new so its all tickety boo!!! I'm also hoping the dizzy is correct for this engine.. Hamish has used him, i'll take that recommendation and the lad at simonbbc seemed to know his stuff, so fingers crossed.
Sandy, i took the ECU out last night, but i really dont want to start tampering with the unknown within the box.. I dont know what i'd be looking for either. I know you mention, dry joints.. If the dizzy doesnt work then and only then i may crack it open... Good news is, that i've got another ECU as a spare.. Same codes, exactly the same... Its a spare.. Just incase...
Si
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