Discussion
Mike, I notice from your profile that one of your first passions was for Esprits of old. Is it true that Oliver Winterbottom was responsible for the design of that car too, or did he appropriate some elements of that shape for use in the Tasmin?
One thing's for sure; it's very much 'of it's time' and when I see a that shape Lotus or a TVR wedge I am cast back to my teenage early driving days before all the years of commuting/accidents/road rage/Gatsos etc.
I bought mine with this in mind.
When I was 18 it was a car to aspire to, moreover, having one has now helped me rekindle the love of driving that I once had; driving for pleasure -- not so much for the thrill of speed or spills, but just the very basic enjoyment of cruising effortlessly up over the hills where I live, windows down, top off and listening to a marvellous motor.
Now I'm off to dry my eyes.
One thing's for sure; it's very much 'of it's time' and when I see a that shape Lotus or a TVR wedge I am cast back to my teenage early driving days before all the years of commuting/accidents/road rage/Gatsos etc.
I bought mine with this in mind.
When I was 18 it was a car to aspire to, moreover, having one has now helped me rekindle the love of driving that I once had; driving for pleasure -- not so much for the thrill of speed or spills, but just the very basic enjoyment of cruising effortlessly up over the hills where I live, windows down, top off and listening to a marvellous motor.
Now I'm off to dry my eyes.
Selmer, IIRC Ollie W. was more involved with the Eclat and the Elite. The Esprit was initially styled by Giorgetto Guigiaro at Ital Design and evolved with input from Colin Chapman and Mike Kimberley amongst others - but not O.W. as far as I've ever read.
From a constructional and build quality point of view, there are a load of similarities between the Esprit and the TVR wedge (same goes for the Eclat/Elite as well). You can certainly see the Tasmin trailing-arm rear suspension on the Esprit, and some of the lines are so similar it's scary.
I always though that Lotus were a cut above TVR until I bought one, and I actually think that for the time, TVR shells were better (ie thicker, but also heavier) but there's not a lot to chose between them when it comes to the way they are screwed together. In retrospect it's amazing that they sold any at all, but then I guess we weren't used to what we get now.
Ian
From a constructional and build quality point of view, there are a load of similarities between the Esprit and the TVR wedge (same goes for the Eclat/Elite as well). You can certainly see the Tasmin trailing-arm rear suspension on the Esprit, and some of the lines are so similar it's scary.
I always though that Lotus were a cut above TVR until I bought one, and I actually think that for the time, TVR shells were better (ie thicker, but also heavier) but there's not a lot to chose between them when it comes to the way they are screwed together. In retrospect it's amazing that they sold any at all, but then I guess we weren't used to what we get now.
Ian
wedg1e said:
In retrospect it's amazing that they sold any at all, but then I guess we weren't used to what we get now.
Ian
I'm not sure how you can say that when you have one of each now at a time when financially it's probably dafter to buy one now than it would have been from new !
15 yr old high mileage fragile high insurance uneconomical sports car or low mileage two year old still under warranty fuel miser sedan - it would have to be the heart that made the decision
Yeah, if I wanted boring to death I'd probably sell up and buy a tin top. But there's life in the old dog yet, and I like poking fun at the 'image', 'lifestyle' thing. There are kids in small hatches who have spent more on bling and toys for their 1.2 shopping carts than I've spent on both my 'exclusive' sports cars, yet people come up to me and say "hey, you must be loaded" without stopping to take a good look and realise that the cars are in fact sheds
Correct about the Esprit being a Guigiaro design - originally from a show car of his, the name of which I cannot remember. Chapman saw this at, I believe, the Geneva show (1972ish?) and contacted Guigiaro forthwith.
The inspiration for the Tasmin must be the Maserati Khamsin, including the vertical back window which was also a feature of the Lamborghini Espada. I believe Martin Lilley had a girlfriend called Tamsin at the time?
With the convertible Tasmin there are great similarities with an Intermecanicca of about 1980ish - in fact the resemblance is quite striking. See feature on Intermecanicca/Apollo in one of last month's classic mags
firefox
The inspiration for the Tasmin must be the Maserati Khamsin, including the vertical back window which was also a feature of the Lamborghini Espada. I believe Martin Lilley had a girlfriend called Tamsin at the time?
With the convertible Tasmin there are great similarities with an Intermecanicca of about 1980ish - in fact the resemblance is quite striking. See feature on Intermecanicca/Apollo in one of last month's classic mags
firefox
iainjones said:
You can certainly see the Tasmin trailing-arm rear suspension on the Esprit,
Wasnt the suspension design by the same bloke, my namesake from memory?
Regards
Iain
I nearly fell off my chair there! I thought you WERE that Ian Jones....
Certainly he worked for Lotus prior to doing the Tasmin, so I suppose it's possible if not probable. The thing I find interesting is that the later Esprit (well, from the S3 on, so post -81) had a top link added to the rear setup, which the Tasmin never got. Probably goes a long way to explaining some things about the relative handling capabilities...
firefox1712 said:
Correct about the Esprit being a Guigiaro design - originally from a show car of his, the name of which I cannot remember. Chapman saw this at, I believe, the Geneva show (1972ish?) and contacted Guigiaro forthwith.
The inspiration for the Tasmin must be the Maserati Khamsin, including the vertical back window which was also a feature of the Lamborghini Espada. I believe Martin Lilley had a girlfriend called Tamsin at the time?
With the convertible Tasmin there are great similarities with an Intermecanicca of about 1980ish - in fact the resemblance is quite striking. See feature on Intermecanicca/Apollo in one of last month's classic mags
firefox
Well, TVR had already done wedgy designs such as the Tina and Zante, and as the Tasmin stylist had prior experience in that line, it seems to me that Lilley was keen to ape Lotus. Trouble is, Lotus already had three versions of the wedge style (Elite, Eclat and Esprit) so TVR were struggling to come up with something different, and I think that helps explain the somewhat awkward proportions of the Tasmin (long nose, short tail).
By the time Tasmin came along, wedge was already becoming unfashionable, BL struggled to sell the Ambassador, for example. The Sierra arrived in '83(?) and suddenly most 70s cars looked ancient.
I reckon TVR could well have gone tits-up if the V8 cars hadn't happened: XRi, GTi, Cosworth and SRi were the 80's buzzwords, and there were plenty of cars faster than a 2.8 Tasmin by 1984.
Ian
Well -
The Sierra didn't really sell well at all in the early stages and cars were heavily discounted to shift them and I understand interesting deals were struck with fleet operators and hire companies.
Ford called it a totally new approach, but of course we had seen it all before with several other cars.
Later on Ford had to really tart it up to get it to sell and develop special versions so the kudos would run off onto the standard cars.
The Sierra didn't really sell well at all in the early stages and cars were heavily discounted to shift them and I understand interesting deals were struck with fleet operators and hire companies.
Ford called it a totally new approach, but of course we had seen it all before with several other cars.
Later on Ford had to really tart it up to get it to sell and develop special versions so the kudos would run off onto the standard cars.
firefox1712 said:
Well -
The Sierra didn't really sell well at all in the early stages and cars were heavily discounted to shift them and I understand interesting deals were struck with fleet operators and hire companies.
Ford called it a totally new approach, but of course we had seen it all before with several other cars.
Later on Ford had to really tart it up to get it to sell and develop special versions so the kudos would run off onto the standard cars.
True, but it did set the scene for the jellymould styling that's persisted ever since.
Now things have almost gone full circle: look how bizarre cars have to appear these days before they stand out!
From my Kit-car owning days I think Ollie Winterbottom also went on to design a few weird and wonderful kits.
(I think this is how Noble started - if it's the same bloke - who used to make very fast, very expensive fibreglass replicas of classic racing ferraris - Le Mans type stuff.)
Mind you, after just taking out the centre instrument panel and a few pieces of trim at the rear to get to my aerial, I think the Tas wasn't far from being a kit too! Come to think of it, it probably shares more parts with a Ford than my kit did! (Maybe it shares more parts with a Ford than my XR4x4 does!)
Still love it though.
Nads
(I think this is how Noble started - if it's the same bloke - who used to make very fast, very expensive fibreglass replicas of classic racing ferraris - Le Mans type stuff.)
Mind you, after just taking out the centre instrument panel and a few pieces of trim at the rear to get to my aerial, I think the Tas wasn't far from being a kit too! Come to think of it, it probably shares more parts with a Ford than my kit did! (Maybe it shares more parts with a Ford than my XR4x4 does!)
Still love it though.
Nads
nads said:
From my Kit-car owning days I think Ollie Winterbottom also went on to design a few weird and wonderful kits.
Well, I never knew that.
nads said:
Mind you, after just taking out the centre instrument panel and a few pieces of trim at the rear to get to my aerial, I think the Tas wasn't far from being a kit too! Come to think of it, it probably shares more parts with a Ford than my kit did! (Maybe it shares more parts with a Ford than my XR4x4 does!)
Still love it though.
Nads
How do you define a kit? This is the grey area that has people picking fault with TVR and others when they look behind the trim and find the raggy edges, bits of tape, dowel, pipe clips etc that hold these cars together (the Esprit has three feet of dowel and pipe clips holding the trim panel in place behind the seats. James Bond would have killed someone
) . They don't see 'hand-crafted', they see 'bodged', yet if these same people were handed a pile of bits and told to assemble them into a workable car, they'd resort to the same methods. Sadly, it is the desire to get a kit finished that leads to a lot of corner-cutting and poor finish.
In a production environment, each part is designed to be stamped out by a machine and clipped together in the shortst possible time with no margin for adjustment. With small volume (and especially GRP), you have production tolerances like a barn door and it's up to the skill of the individual to make the finished result work (though still as quickly as possible).
If you wanted, you could take your TVR, Lotus, kit etc. apart and rebuild it, shaving a millimetre off here and adding some packing there until it was absolutely perfect - and people do: I saw a Countach replica years ago that had cost more than the owner could have bought a real one for, but his was better built - but if you wanted the factory to do it, the price would go through the roof.
Look on the bright side: at least you CAN fiddle with it; if your mass-market car has to come apart you often have to break the bits in the process.
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