Not Starting

[Grady]

A little problem now that fall is coming...

1986 US version (2.8) - basically stock. Recently replaced the clutch and bulkhead bearing - ran after that. It has always started on the 2nd crank (even after the above). But about 6 weeks ago, no joy.

Last weekend I checked and cleaned the metering valve and related intake rubber - all new and good. Spark - OK (hard to tell in bright sun) but clearly clicking. Cranks like crazy but absolutely so sign of catching/firing.

So I suspect no fuel. Drained tank and added new gas and Techtron; changed the fuel filter. The gas wasn't cloggy, but smelled old. Pump works enough to refill the new filter. BUT no smell of fuel in engine bay or tailpipes. Also the plugs are dry.

Suggestions on what next to tackle? Most of the treads deal with not running well and I'm not there yet! Thanks Grady

[RCK974X]

Is the pump running ? You should be able to hear the whine...

Not sure about US setups, original setup is known for relay faults, so pump won't run, and no fuel pressure. Also I found fuse holder can get a bit dodgy as it runs warm....

If it's been stood a while, pump can also seize, but much more likely to be the relay or pump power problem.

On (non_US) early models, pulling off the metering flap connector (on side of unit) should make pump run, and on later ones, the 'purple/pink' relay can be replaced with a standard one for testing. Don't know if this applies to US ones...

[Grady]

Honestly I have never heard the the fuel pump run - which is either a statement about the pump or my poor hearing. And that said, the pump runs well enough to refill the filter. I know this because one of the the new copper crush washers leaks.

Is there any reason not to begin loosing the banjo fittings at the fuel meter to see how far the fuel is getting in the system towards the injectors? Grady

[GOG440]

Grady said:

Honestly I have never heard the the fuel pump run - which is either a statement about the pump or my poor hearing. And that said, the pump runs well enough to refill the filter. I know this because one of the the new copper crush washers leaks.

Is there any reason not to begin loosing the banjo fittings at the fuel meter to see how far the fuel is getting in the system towards the injectors? Grady

I had stress with my 280 not starting and it was a poor connection from the purple relay in the fuse box

[mrzigazaga]

I know with the UK version there is a green plug on the side of the metering unit that when un-plugged it allows you to run the fuel pump on the first position of the key instead of cranking...Not sure if you can do that with the US models or how even?..Could be a relay.....

[RCK974X]

Grady said:

Honestly I have never heard the the fuel pump run - which is either a statement about the pump or my poor hearing. And that said, the pump runs well enough to refill the filter. I know this because one of the the new copper crush washers leaks.

Is there any reason not to begin loosing the banjo fittings at the fuel meter to see how far the fuel is getting in the system towards the injectors? Grady

If you do loosen banjo fittings, be careful, as fuel is at high pressure (>70psi) so can go everywhere, and an obvious fire risk. That said, it's as good a way as any to check there's fuel pressure.

If you are getting a small leak, let's assume you do have pressure, then
1) Check whether the main metering flap is free - it should lift with hardly any resistance (use a small screwdriver to get under edges).
2) You can also unbolt the cold start injector and see if it sprays when cranking.
3) you can get an injector out with a bit of fiddling, and check if it sprays.

[Grady]

Thanks for the suggestions.

The lower filter banjo fitting is dripping a slow drip during and after cranking. The upper coppers are wider and the lower (where the leak is) were narrower. Hope that is proper (Fran filter not a Bosch, but the copper washers look the same on both.)

[quote=RCK974X] 1) Check whether the main metering flap is free - it should lift with hardly any resistance (use a small screwdriver to get under edges).
quote]

The metering plate (round plate under the black 'rubber' cover that feeds the air/fuel intake) depresses a bit - 3/8"(?) with minimal effort - like before IIRC. Is this what you are referring to?

I'm off to check on my son at school this weekend, so another week before I can try the other ideas. Thanks Grady

[RCK974X]

Grady said:

... The metering plate (round plate under the black 'rubber' cover that feeds the air/fuel intake) depresses a bit - 3/8"(?) with minimal effort - like before IIRC. Is this what you are referring to? ...

Yes, but the airflow through to the engine will LIFT the flap UP, and this is what causes more fuel to flow through injectors. It can be pushed down slightly as a safety exit for fumes in case of an engine backfire. this is why you need a thin screwdriver, OR you can take air filter off and push flap gently from underneath. As only air lifts flap, it should take only very light pressure to move it.

Cold start injector working will prove fuel is arriving at metering head at least....which was why I added it to list ...

[mrzigazaga]

Are you saying you have fuel leaking from the fuel filter?....The washers on the banjo fittings should either be alloy or soft crushable copper...Also the design of the filter lends itself to damage if not done correctly...Ive done it myself where you put a wrench on the alloy nut and a spanner on the banjo..I split mine trying to tighten it up to stop it leaking...The correct way is to tighten it as much as is possible with the correct size spanners and then position them so they look like a pair of scissors...Keep a relatively small gap say 3" between them and gently squeeze the two together...

As said time and time again...PLEASE BE CAREFUL WHEN DEALING WITH LEAKING FUEL ......

[RCK974X]

A little tip - did you know that copper self-hardens over time ? (and it work hardens also)

So ideally for copper sealing washers, you should heat them to about 200C and then let them cool naturally - this is called annealing.

Then use them with the banjos.

[Grady]

I'm thinking now that the leaking intake-side washers had a smaller OD (so they were more like a ring and less like a washer) may be part of the problem. I've ordered an assortment set of replacements so hopefully I can get that addressed, them move on to the other ideas.

Mark - Not to worry, I'll heat them away from the leaking fuel. Grady

[pasogrande]

Grady,
You said that "the metering plate . . . depresses a bit". When the throttle opens (during cranking and running) the metering plate comes up, not down. Yes it should depress a little, but it is more important that you can pull it up. Some people like to do this with vice-grips on the hex bolt; I prefer to remove the air filter and push the plate up that way.
A likely problem is that the plunger is stuck. I made the mistake of pushing it up (with my hand in the air filter box}; but I pushed it up too much and it got firmly stuck beyond its normal "up" position.
So I had to strip the fuel distributor to fix it. Despite advice to use shellac or other sealant, I just put it back metal-to-metal and it didn't leak. German engineering.

Wilf.

[jeff m2]

If you take out the pressure regulator, that's the pointy thing with shims on located on the Fuel Dis, and crank the the engine you should get fuel.Pump should op from the starter wire.
As the pressure reg is located on the return that would prove fuel from tank thru filter, WUR and back to the Fuel dist.

The resistance felt when lifting plate for air filter box is actually the control pressure, so....if it lifts too easily there is a chance you have no system or control pressure. Should feel spongy.

If you have the manual, do a fuel delivery check 750ccs in 30 seconds, make sure your insurance is up to date
You will have to get a barbed threaded gizmo to put in the pressure reg hole so you attach a piece of hose to direct the fuel into one of your wifes measuring jars.

EDIT
I'm guessing you've done this but....
Block wheels get someone to operate the starter, place hand on pump.

EDIT (again)
For the delivery test it is easier just to hot wire the fuel pump with a long piece of wire so you have one hand holding the jar and one holding the wire on the + battery post. It becomes a one man operation no need for someone to turn the key.

Edited by jeff m2 on Saturday 19th September 22:49

[Grady]

I'll be testing and futzing this weekend. How far depressed should the metering plate be when the car is off? I'm thinking it was touching or almost touching the top (well bottom edge) of the housing. Grady

[RCK974X]

If you look at the metering unit, it is cone shaped, both up AND down (below flap), and the flap should sit at the narrowest part when engine not running. You should be able to lift the flap (not too much) with a gentle push from underneath (take air filter off).

Note what was said above,
1) When pump running it applies pressure to stop the flap lifting too much.
2) Don't push flap up very much with fingers.

[Grady]

So today's results:
Fuel filter - replaced the copper washers on the leaking end and it still leaks so I'll get another.

Despite the leak/weep, the supply side was still under pressure so it appears the pump and anti-back flow diaphragm are working. Also learned that it much easier to work on the filter by removing the bracket and working both ends from the top.

Metering (air) valve - now I can see that it actually goes up. Thanks to all of you for explaining that to me.

Fuel - I cut the return line and put it in a plastic bottle. I propped up the valve body about 1/2 way and got fuel out via the return line. Next I'll see if the plugs are wet and double check the spark after dark. Grady

[mrzigazaga]

Hi Grady...So you have fuel...And a spark....The rest should happen naturally...How bright is the spark...If its not strong then it could be the ignition module (Spark generator)..I would also check the ignition switch..It definitely sounds like an electrical issue...Are you handy with a tester..Most of Delilah's non-starting issues were down to fuel components...i:e Metering head being full of crud..The WUR being full of crud...The accumulator leaking...Ignition module & Switch faulty...Dodgy main starter relay....Oh and a smashed rotor arm due to some twker ill fitting it....Hope you sort it...Ziga

[Grady]

Mark - I cracked the cold start banjo fitting slightly and it definitely has fuel under pressure there. I cranked the engine a few more times with the meter 1/2 open and then pulled a spark plug. I hoped it would be wet but it was dry. Not sure if that means anything.

I'll check the spark tonight. Grady

[mrzigazaga]

Hi mate...I can't see if you have checked to see if you have fuel coming out of the injectors?...Fuel coming from the return is not really an indication that its going through the metering unit to the injectors...The control plunger could be stuck closed so that fuel just goes to the return....

On a different note do you have the correct fuel pump, The fuel pressure is very important on a K-Jetronic system as the pressures are regulated by not just the metering unit but also the WUR...

Having fuel is a good sign but you need to know whether it is reaching its final point ...Ziga

[Grady]

Good spark.

I have never changed the fuel pump so I know it worked with the system before and still seems to be working generally.

I guess pulling an injector is next.