V8 into early straight rail chassis
Discussion
I've thought a lot about doing this and there's been a lot of chatter on other threads about it, so I thought I'd repost this link.
It can be done but you need a Ford 302 if you don't want to do major mods to the chassis. I suspect a RV8 would fit in but you'd need to either mount it high or further forward to get the exhaust manifold past the chassis rails.
Anyway here's how it's done:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=135...
It can be done but you need a Ford 302 if you don't want to do major mods to the chassis. I suspect a RV8 would fit in but you'd need to either mount it high or further forward to get the exhaust manifold past the chassis rails.
Anyway here's how it's done:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=135...
I've seen the chassis rails chopped. I recall someone last year had to sell their car because water had went inside the rails and rotted the chassis from the inside out. Amongst other things.
If you want to go faster, buy a wedge with a bigger engine instead of modifying. I think a few people on here will agree with this.
If you want to go faster, buy a wedge with a bigger engine instead of modifying. I think a few people on here will agree with this.
I agree there is nothing that substitutes cubes, I learnt that trying to supercharge a 280i..Although saying that...If the heads i bought were both un-leaded as i was lead..(Pun) to believe then maybe i would still be driving a 207bhp 280i with 200ftlb torque...It would of been a lot easier and cheaper to send the original engine up to John Toovey while i was driving around with the spare that i had in case of any eventualities ..Which ended up being fitted anyway...And let him work his magic on the cologne..200bhp race engine.....Oh well you cannot turn back time so a hard lesson learnt...
Wasn't there another 280i in the US that had a 302 small block Ford fitted...I seem to remember the wedge being red and the guys name being Scott?....
Wasn't there another 280i in the US that had a 302 small block Ford fitted...I seem to remember the wedge being red and the guys name being Scott?....
MethylatedSpirit said:
water had went inside the rails and rotted the chassis from the inside out.
This happens anyway, my methylated friend. TVR had a habit of making chassis('s?) and then "storing" them in the open for a few months while the rest of the production line caught up. The result was that some filled with water and started rotting even before final assembly. (this probably matches up to "engine swap' thread !!)
I have measured a few engines etc here in NZ, to look for a unleaded option with more power.
There's pics around of a bare V8 frame and the original 2.8 frame to compare. The V8 chassis is wider at the back and has curved rails, so as the V8 can squeeze in, and has several bars in different places, for sump and so on.
Main problem with V6 frame is that it's very narrow at the back, and has a crossbar which forces a rear sump engine, and prevents mounting the engine further forwards. If I mod the frame here in NZ, I'll have a big bill for re-certification (> $3000). If I can keep it down to a few extra/deleted brackets, it will be a lot cheaper....
I happen to have a 90 degree V6 3800 Holden/Buick sat on my shed floor (which is related to the Rover V8) and *IF* I can get a rear sump, drop the front crossbar (like Zig did for supercharger) it might *JUST* go in. And I do mean JUST ... but it's 30% more torque, and would then be quicker then a 350....
Ford 302 Windsor is probably the narrowest V8 around, and apparently will just squeeze in a V6 frame, but it's VERY tight. And prices are going up, even here.
The newer Opel/Vauxhall/Holden V6 is apparently a 54 degree DOHC V6, that might go.....haven't got to measure one (yet). Problem now is nearly all V6 are DOHC, making them too wide at rear. Here in NZ there are many Ford L6 DOHC engines (Falcon), but they are VERY long, about 30 inches, so would need a bump in the bonnet and a very short bellhousing....
If you've seen the pics of the RV8 in the V6 frame, the engine is mounted quite high to get exhausts in, I could do this with the Buick, which could clear the sump too... but not sure if this is good idea...
Many V6 are also now FWD, making gearboxes a pain to sort out ....
A few 3 litre or bigger V6 Japs around, all FWD and DOHC though probably too wide...most are front sump.....
Perhaps an older Nissan V6 (VG30), but not much gain over 2.8.
I love to be able to measure a Volvo/Ford T5 But haven't had the chance.
Perhaps a Jap L6 DOHC, there are some around, the legendary RB25, or Toyota 3 litre L6 ...but pricey.
BMW L6 - being done on here, but expensive to buy here in NZ, and all seem to be autos.
I'd rather have cubes than a turbo, so again, makes choices harder - don't want a duratec L4, even though can get big power.
Or perhaps it's better to bite the bullet and do frame mods and pay for re-cert, at least then there are more choices....
And so on.....for many, many paragraphs.....
I have measured a few engines etc here in NZ, to look for a unleaded option with more power.
There's pics around of a bare V8 frame and the original 2.8 frame to compare. The V8 chassis is wider at the back and has curved rails, so as the V8 can squeeze in, and has several bars in different places, for sump and so on.
Main problem with V6 frame is that it's very narrow at the back, and has a crossbar which forces a rear sump engine, and prevents mounting the engine further forwards. If I mod the frame here in NZ, I'll have a big bill for re-certification (> $3000). If I can keep it down to a few extra/deleted brackets, it will be a lot cheaper....
I happen to have a 90 degree V6 3800 Holden/Buick sat on my shed floor (which is related to the Rover V8) and *IF* I can get a rear sump, drop the front crossbar (like Zig did for supercharger) it might *JUST* go in. And I do mean JUST ... but it's 30% more torque, and would then be quicker then a 350....
Ford 302 Windsor is probably the narrowest V8 around, and apparently will just squeeze in a V6 frame, but it's VERY tight. And prices are going up, even here.
The newer Opel/Vauxhall/Holden V6 is apparently a 54 degree DOHC V6, that might go.....haven't got to measure one (yet). Problem now is nearly all V6 are DOHC, making them too wide at rear. Here in NZ there are many Ford L6 DOHC engines (Falcon), but they are VERY long, about 30 inches, so would need a bump in the bonnet and a very short bellhousing....
If you've seen the pics of the RV8 in the V6 frame, the engine is mounted quite high to get exhausts in, I could do this with the Buick, which could clear the sump too... but not sure if this is good idea...
Many V6 are also now FWD, making gearboxes a pain to sort out ....
A few 3 litre or bigger V6 Japs around, all FWD and DOHC though probably too wide...most are front sump.....
Perhaps an older Nissan V6 (VG30), but not much gain over 2.8.
I love to be able to measure a Volvo/Ford T5 But haven't had the chance.
Perhaps a Jap L6 DOHC, there are some around, the legendary RB25, or Toyota 3 litre L6 ...but pricey.
BMW L6 - being done on here, but expensive to buy here in NZ, and all seem to be autos.
I'd rather have cubes than a turbo, so again, makes choices harder - don't want a duratec L4, even though can get big power.
Or perhaps it's better to bite the bullet and do frame mods and pay for re-cert, at least then there are more choices....
And so on.....for many, many paragraphs.....
Edited by RCK974X on Monday 4th January 20:26
I know a couple of conversions have been documented/performed over here (I have some notes and printouts) but then the trail always goes cold. I've never seen good picture, info, measurements, etc. I do also recall someone put a 302 in only to find it was actually a 351 block (Winsor?)- apparently it fit just fine.
I have an interest in this as my non-running 85 come with a water flooded and I can't imagine the CIS works. I always thought of it as a potential 302/T5 conversion.
BTW - I saw this on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/391351851271?_trksid=p2060...
I have an interest in this as my non-running 85 come with a water flooded and I can't imagine the CIS works. I always thought of it as a potential 302/T5 conversion.
BTW - I saw this on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/391351851271?_trksid=p2060...
mrzigazaga said:
Holy crap!...Was it like that both sides?.....
yup.......you can see how "thin" the top tubes where in this shot, my personal favorite was the welding right at the front......I hadn't realized Steve Wonder did welding lolGlad I can laugh about it now lol......happy days
Couple of things.....again to best of my research - someone correct me if this is wrong !
Here in NZ, we got the 302 Windsor for a while, in Ford Falcons. Later though, Ford quietly changed the V8 Falcon to a Cleveland V8, which is quite a bit bigger, as it has sizes out to 351 ci (5.7L ?), and so the 302 is the SMALLEST capacity for that block, whereas it was the largest for the Windsor. Falcon now uses a modular V8 ? Not sure. So Windsors are getting rare even here.
Further to that, I think most of the USA exports actually had the V8 chassis with a 280 engine (but again, can't confirm this) and so the Cleveland may well go in a Rover chassis. The Rover is originally a Buick, and I think it's pretty much the same size as a Cleveland, and in fact is similar size as several other V8 lumps. I read somewhere the LS1 is hardly any bigger than a RV8, even with the DOHC heads.
Pics - Yeah as the Americans would say "Sheeeyit !" I would probably have replaced the top rails with curved ones if I was going that far, but then if I was in UK, I would see if I could get a V8 frame made.... do the jigs still exist ? Or perhaps a couple of old friends who are kit car makers, who would have the skills....and the pipe benders !!
Those cuts are pretty much where the V8 rails curve outwards from what I can see, so makes sense that's where space reqd...
I must go measure AGAIN and see about the 3800 - I've decided to make a wooden/steel model of the V6 rails, which is as good a way as any ....
Here in NZ, we got the 302 Windsor for a while, in Ford Falcons. Later though, Ford quietly changed the V8 Falcon to a Cleveland V8, which is quite a bit bigger, as it has sizes out to 351 ci (5.7L ?), and so the 302 is the SMALLEST capacity for that block, whereas it was the largest for the Windsor. Falcon now uses a modular V8 ? Not sure. So Windsors are getting rare even here.
Further to that, I think most of the USA exports actually had the V8 chassis with a 280 engine (but again, can't confirm this) and so the Cleveland may well go in a Rover chassis. The Rover is originally a Buick, and I think it's pretty much the same size as a Cleveland, and in fact is similar size as several other V8 lumps. I read somewhere the LS1 is hardly any bigger than a RV8, even with the DOHC heads.
Pics - Yeah as the Americans would say "Sheeeyit !" I would probably have replaced the top rails with curved ones if I was going that far, but then if I was in UK, I would see if I could get a V8 frame made.... do the jigs still exist ? Or perhaps a couple of old friends who are kit car makers, who would have the skills....and the pipe benders !!
Those cuts are pretty much where the V8 rails curve outwards from what I can see, so makes sense that's where space reqd...
I must go measure AGAIN and see about the 3800 - I've decided to make a wooden/steel model of the V6 rails, which is as good a way as any ....
Edited by RCK974X on Tuesday 5th January 22:06
That pic is really interesting - it looks like a separate piece has been added in and welded up, as compared to 'my' pic, which has a straight rail with a single bend in it. Hmmm. perhaps the early V8 frames really were a mod of the V6 ??
Looks like a trailing arm rear end, so could be ....
Fascinating stuff.
Looks like a trailing arm rear end, so could be ....
Fascinating stuff.
Oh remember it well caused me some grief getting a 4 pot YB in there... As you can see from the picture below I had to modify the position of the throttle body because of the chassis rail. Even then you can see how close the inlet manifold is to the chassis rail. 
Just realised this was taken in 2003...
Cheers Steve
Just realised this was taken in 2003...
Cheers Steve
SEvans said:
Just realised this was taken in 2003...
Just found a couple of pics of Delilah's engine swap/supercharging...Sorry about the poor quality but it does look like the chassis rail is straight...I spoke to RT racing as regards to the front cross bar being modified before anything was attempted, I didn't want to cut anything that could possibly weaken the chassis...Im actually surprised at the silver machines chassis...Essentially its a "Death trap"..If the unfortunate business of a head on happened then you would be dead for sure..I had a friend killed in a head on..His chassis was rotten and he ended up with and engine in his chest!...
With blower pulley on.
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