Hypothetical Engine Question ;)
Discussion
Ok, this is purely hypothetical you understand, and nothing to do with the running problems I've had in the past and that have reared their head again today...
What engine is ripe for putting into a series 1 FHC in replacement for the Cologne V6? 150 to 160bhp with more when I get bored with that.
My short list includes
*2litre cosworth (turbo) like the racers
*2litre duratec
*someone mentioned a Saab turbo
*someone (Joolz possibly) mentioned a diesel conversion 1.9 VW TDi anyone?
*K-series
Any others???
Regards
Iain
What engine is ripe for putting into a series 1 FHC in replacement for the Cologne V6? 150 to 160bhp with more when I get bored with that.
My short list includes
*2litre cosworth (turbo) like the racers
*2litre duratec
*someone mentioned a Saab turbo
*someone (Joolz possibly) mentioned a diesel conversion 1.9 VW TDi anyone?
*K-series
Any others???
Regards
Iain
chassis 33 said:
*2litre cosworth (turbo) like the racers
Well worth having a chat to this chap www.pistonheads.com/members/showProfile.asp?memberId=14681 You can't live too far from him.
Peugeot V6 3-litre 24v ? Effortless 200 BHP. I had a 406 saloon with one of these in just before the 350i and it was a faster car!! by far!! especially after 80!! (kmh you understand)
I've hered somewhere that they're putting them in to Lotus Excel's. Can't remember where I read this though. Lovely engine, would sound great with a proper exhaust.
Edited to say "by far"
Edited to say "especially after 80!! (kmh you understand)
>> Edited by pwd95 on Sunday 28th August 21:15
>> Edited by pwd95 on Sunday 28th August 21:17
I've hered somewhere that they're putting them in to Lotus Excel's. Can't remember where I read this though. Lovely engine, would sound great with a proper exhaust.
Edited to say "by far"
Edited to say "especially after 80!! (kmh you understand)
>> Edited by pwd95 on Sunday 28th August 21:15
>> Edited by pwd95 on Sunday 28th August 21:17
JR said:
*2litre cosworth (turbo) like the racers
Well worth having a chat to this chap www.pistonheads.com/members/showProfile.asp?memberId=14681 You can't live too far from him.
Ian, happy to take you out for a spin if you want to see what the 2 litre is like. The 2L is more epensive to buy in the first place but it's then relatively cheap to upgrade to around 300BHP (no real engine work required). After that it gets more expensive if you want it to be reliable. The v6 seems very cheap to buy initially but I suspect is going to cost more to upgrade later. May be worth talking to Top Boss re the tuning potential and cost of tuning the v6. www.topbossperformance.co.uk/
Personally I would go for the V6 in yours as it already had the V6. As mine was a 200 it still is a 200.
I scratched my head over this for ages, and looked at the different options.
A 2.9 12 valve will give you about the same power, but a slightly more modern engine (unleaded
), with more tuning potential.
The same, but in 24 valve Cossie form will also give a big power boost, but needs to be a 'goodun' to avoid expensive rebuilding work.
From what I've read over on the Wedgepages (MikeB), your present gearbox and clutch could be retained, and hopefully most of the exhaust system , bar the manis (the EXPENSIVE bit). If you've a stainless exhaust, why throw 400 quids worth of perfectly good pipes away?
Suspension settings will still be ok, as weight unchanged, but a brake upgrade advisable if not already carried out.
To a Yorkshireman like myself, the above transplants suggest straightforward and ECONOMICAL, do-able at home.
I have carried out quite a few transplants in my youth, involving sometimes totally unrelated vehicles and engines, like Ford Crossflow into Mazda, but also 3 litre Essex Capri Auto into Cortina 2litre manual, 3 litre Granada (Essex) manual into Cortina estate, and 3litre Granada manual into Tranny van.
If you can keep the engine related as closely as possible to the original though, at least by make, it makes life so much easier.
Anyone can rip an engine out and stick another lump between the chassis rails. It's getting everything to link together and actually function correctly and reliably that is the hard part.
As for going to a 4 pot, well great an engine as the Cossie is, it's not a 'V', and that is what the car was designed for. One day you might want to sell it, and get a decent price.
I think a sticking with a V6 will also keep the insurance sensible.
A 2.9 12 valve will give you about the same power, but a slightly more modern engine (unleaded
), with more tuning potential. The same, but in 24 valve Cossie form will also give a big power boost, but needs to be a 'goodun' to avoid expensive rebuilding work.
From what I've read over on the Wedgepages (MikeB), your present gearbox and clutch could be retained, and hopefully most of the exhaust system , bar the manis (the EXPENSIVE bit). If you've a stainless exhaust, why throw 400 quids worth of perfectly good pipes away?
Suspension settings will still be ok, as weight unchanged, but a brake upgrade advisable if not already carried out.
To a Yorkshireman like myself, the above transplants suggest straightforward and ECONOMICAL, do-able at home.
I have carried out quite a few transplants in my youth, involving sometimes totally unrelated vehicles and engines, like Ford Crossflow into Mazda, but also 3 litre Essex Capri Auto into Cortina 2litre manual, 3 litre Granada (Essex) manual into Cortina estate, and 3litre Granada manual into Tranny van.
If you can keep the engine related as closely as possible to the original though, at least by make, it makes life so much easier.
Anyone can rip an engine out and stick another lump between the chassis rails. It's getting everything to link together and actually function correctly and reliably that is the hard part.
As for going to a 4 pot, well great an engine as the Cossie is, it's not a 'V', and that is what the car was designed for. One day you might want to sell it, and get a decent price.
I think a sticking with a V6 will also keep the insurance sensible.
Interesting comments, keep them coming. I'm getting kind of fed up with the teething (engine) problems, some days i can quite happily get 95mph on my private test track, probably more if i dared brave it out agains the rather tight suspension, only for the next day to have to be towed home with an unknown problem, slam the door shut come back next morning and it runs round the yard fine but dies as soon as i take it out onto the road. I'm wondering whether its a load of components all nearing th end of their lives, (I havent done any engine work as such during the restoration), or my lack of patience thats causing the problems.
I could throw an old Pug/Sierra/P100 diesel in in a day and it would run for ever, one wire for fuel solenoid from the ignition switch, the existing starter leads and job done, for £50! But then thats not a TVR is!!!
Alot of modern engines have ECU's integrated with just about everything else in a car and wont run unless every piece fo the jigsaw is there, which rules out alot of engines, however the kitcar favourites are typically the ones that get round this, alternatively get a long engine put an Alpha set up on it and a set of Webers and again job done for slightly more money.
All this is pie in the sky stuff, I have the Chim racer to sort first, or dont have the Chim racer to sort at the moment as the case currently is, but thats another story.
Regards
Iain
I could throw an old Pug/Sierra/P100 diesel in in a day and it would run for ever, one wire for fuel solenoid from the ignition switch, the existing starter leads and job done, for £50! But then thats not a TVR is!!!
Alot of modern engines have ECU's integrated with just about everything else in a car and wont run unless every piece fo the jigsaw is there, which rules out alot of engines, however the kitcar favourites are typically the ones that get round this, alternatively get a long engine put an Alpha set up on it and a set of Webers and again job done for slightly more money.
All this is pie in the sky stuff, I have the Chim racer to sort first, or dont have the Chim racer to sort at the moment as the case currently is, but thats another story.
Regards
Iain
The only man to speak to re tuning potential of the cossie 24valve is our own boostedls1.. i don't recommend anyone else, pm if you wanna know more
given the choice i think the alfa V6 is a worthy candidate .. hop across to the practical performance car website and forums if you wanna know more about this engine and it's bargain hp/pound.
of the mainstream engines the 2 litre vauxhall is a logical choice as there's a whole host of cheap tuning/upgrade options for later on, and they mate to the type9 box no probs with the right bellhousing... used in lots of kits cars so every known problem has already been dealt with
given the choice i think the alfa V6 is a worthy candidate .. hop across to the practical performance car website and forums if you wanna know more about this engine and it's bargain hp/pound.
of the mainstream engines the 2 litre vauxhall is a logical choice as there's a whole host of cheap tuning/upgrade options for later on, and they mate to the type9 box no probs with the right bellhousing... used in lots of kits cars so every known problem has already been dealt with
oooo, get him an Alfa eh? LAH dee DAH!!!
Don't know much about that one, only experiance wilth Alfa engines was mates boxer in a 33 at uni, engine out job to do the plugs etc. The V6 any better in terms of maintainance? Does it sound as good as the 4pot twin cam Italian engines?
edited to add...
HMMMmmmmmmmmmmm 
Regards
Iain
>> Edited by chassis 33 on Monday 29th August 16:36
Don't know much about that one, only experiance wilth Alfa engines was mates boxer in a 33 at uni, engine out job to do the plugs etc. The V6 any better in terms of maintainance? Does it sound as good as the 4pot twin cam Italian engines?
edited to add...
HMMMmmmmmmmmmmm Regards
Iain
>> Edited by chassis 33 on Monday 29th August 16:36
The 24v cosworth will fit but will need some custom headers (funny but I make those). It doesn't need any tuning n/a and will give over 200 hp. In fact, it's just not worth tuning in n/a form as it's expensive.
In turbo form it can still be made to fit using my turbo manifolds mounted upside down and it will yield over 300 hp from 6lbs of boost and a lot more with 15-20 lbs I don't normally post my own products but this may be of interest even though it's out of date.
www.chevroletls1.com/ford_cosworth.html
Boosted.
In turbo form it can still be made to fit using my turbo manifolds mounted upside down and it will yield over 300 hp from 6lbs of boost and a lot more with 15-20 lbs
I don't normally post my own products but this may be of interest even though it's out of date. www.chevroletls1.com/ford_cosworth.html
Boosted.
Cheers Boosted, I hope no Wedgers will begrudge you a quick plug!
A couple of LS1 and Ford Cologne 24v questions.
Whats the weight comparison between the RV8 and LS1 Youve got the dimensions on the website but I cant find weights.
Does the £2662 give essentially an imported engine that 'just' needs fitting or are items such as the ECU, and ancillaries extra?
...the biggie!!!...will an LS1 fit in a series 1 FCH engine bag, given a RV8 doesn't?
Realistically how much is a stock 24v conversion going to cost, is it best starting with a complete car and scavenging what I need?
I have to say the more I look at the Alfa 164 V6 the more it appeals!!! Certainly for the Wedge anyway!!!Under £500 for an MoT'd car that I can run while i tart up the SD1, then whip the engine out for the Tasmin...
For quite a while I've been thinking about an LS1(...or a Jag V12) for my SD1...hmmmm!
Also, how long before we seen the LS7 availible over here? I read an SAE paper on it earlier this year and it sounds a stonker!
Regards
Iain
A couple of LS1 and Ford Cologne 24v questions.
Whats the weight comparison between the RV8 and LS1 Youve got the dimensions on the website but I cant find weights.
Does the £2662 give essentially an imported engine that 'just' needs fitting or are items such as the ECU, and ancillaries extra?
...the biggie!!!...will an LS1 fit in a series 1 FCH engine bag, given a RV8 doesn't?
Realistically how much is a stock 24v conversion going to cost, is it best starting with a complete car and scavenging what I need?
I have to say the more I look at the Alfa 164 V6 the more it appeals!!! Certainly for the Wedge anyway!!!Under £500 for an MoT'd car that I can run while i tart up the SD1, then whip the engine out for the Tasmin...
For quite a while I've been thinking about an LS1(...or a Jag V12) for my SD1...hmmmm!
Also, how long before we seen the LS7 availible over here? I read an SAE paper on it earlier this year and it sounds a stonker!
Regards
Iain
chassis 33 said:
"Whats the weight comparison between the RV8 and LS1 Youve got the dimensions on the website but I cant find weights".
LS1 is heavier but not by much, it weighs appx 400 lbs, 24v weight!
"Does the £2662 give essentially an imported engine that 'just' needs fitting or are items such as the ECU, and ancillaries extra"?
Nope, it's all new and assembled by me and just the bits that are essential. The rest you can choose yourself.
"...the biggie!!!...will an LS1 fit in a series 1 FCH engine bag, given a RV8 doesn't"?
Not sure, it is shorter and not as tall as a rover but is wider across the heads. You need 28" to have a nice fit.
"Realistically how much is a stock 24v conversion going to cost, is it best starting with a complete car and scavenging what I need"?
What is a stock 24v conversion? As said, a n/a engine conversion's not worth the money. Buy an air filter and a few boltons and use what you have. A rebuild is quite expensive.
"Also, how long before we seen the LS7 availible over here? I read an SAE paper on it earlier this year and it sounds a stonker"!
It's hype, you won't see them in the marketplace for ages and ages and ages! V Good engine to have in front of you though!
Regards
Iain
Tower View have already done a couple 24V conversions and it has turned the Series 1 into a nice little motor as they say.
The LS1 won't fit without major chassis surgery and don't forget to add a lot of money for all the other mods that will be necessary to fit it like transmission, propshaft, exhaust, wiring and so on. There is also the matte rof how long the poor car will thing off with 350 bhp going through it!
The LS1 won't fit without major chassis surgery and don't forget to add a lot of money for all the other mods that will be necessary to fit it like transmission, propshaft, exhaust, wiring and so on. There is also the matte rof how long the poor car will thing off with 350 bhp going through it!
I think its fair to say a big V8 into an series one is a no go, except maybe that radical engine...anyone got a spare 30k?
The Alfa route is looking good, I know a couple of local 'specialists' too, plus its like me, something a little different (and yes I'll then turn round and complain that it's all to difficult and be looking for sympathy because it still doesnt work, and everyone will turn round and say you should of stuck with the Cologne engine...)
It's not going to happen until the Chim racer is prepped and we finish dropping the V8 into my dads SD1.
Cheers guys, thanks for your help.
Regards
Iain
The Alfa route is looking good, I know a couple of local 'specialists' too, plus its like me, something a little different (and yes I'll then turn round and complain that it's all to difficult and be looking for sympathy because it still doesnt work, and everyone will turn round and say you should of stuck with the Cologne engine...)
It's not going to happen until the Chim racer is prepped and we finish dropping the V8 into my dads SD1.
Cheers guys, thanks for your help.
Regards
Iain
Right...
Sd1 swap:
My brother knows of a guy who fitted a Rolls Royce Merlin! Road going as well from memory...
Fast 4-pot 16v:
Pug Mi16 1.9 wins hands down in my opinion. Simple to work with, big valves, all alloy block and head with spin-cast iron liners in the 1.9, the 2.0 is a iron block (not worth the extra mass for 100cc).
A comparison of valves:
K series = 27.7mm
Zetec = 32mm
XE Redtop = 33mm
Mi16 = 34.6mm (36.5 very easy/cheap to do)
Cossie YB = 35mm, just bigger but heavy engine!
Standard Mi16 1.9 = 160BHP (84BHP/L!), happy at 8,000rpm, big well flowed ports.
As it has oversized valve seats fitted from the factory you can move to 36.5mm valves very cheaply, this plus a port job (mainly smoothing behind the valve guides) gains you 20% (30-40BHP) and rally cams another 12% (up to 25BHP).
It'll do 200BHP on standard inlet stuff, 225BHP with throttle bodies at 8,000RPM. In race spec 250BHP at 8.7k is "easy", 270BHP at 9,300rpm is "possible" and a big money 10,000rpm engine might pop 300BHP.
See <a href="www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm"><a href="www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm">www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm</a></a> for more!
>> Edited by keri on Thursday 8th September 11:59
>> Edited by keri on Thursday 8th September 12:00
>> Edited by keri on Thursday 8th September 12:01
Sd1 swap:
My brother knows of a guy who fitted a Rolls Royce Merlin! Road going as well from memory...
Fast 4-pot 16v:
Pug Mi16 1.9 wins hands down in my opinion. Simple to work with, big valves, all alloy block and head with spin-cast iron liners in the 1.9, the 2.0 is a iron block (not worth the extra mass for 100cc).
A comparison of valves:
K series = 27.7mm
Zetec = 32mm
XE Redtop = 33mm
Mi16 = 34.6mm (36.5 very easy/cheap to do)
Cossie YB = 35mm, just bigger but heavy engine!
Standard Mi16 1.9 = 160BHP (84BHP/L!), happy at 8,000rpm, big well flowed ports.
As it has oversized valve seats fitted from the factory you can move to 36.5mm valves very cheaply, this plus a port job (mainly smoothing behind the valve guides) gains you 20% (30-40BHP) and rally cams another 12% (up to 25BHP).
It'll do 200BHP on standard inlet stuff, 225BHP with throttle bodies at 8,000RPM. In race spec 250BHP at 8.7k is "easy", 270BHP at 9,300rpm is "possible" and a big money 10,000rpm engine might pop 300BHP.
See <a href="www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm"><a href="www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm">www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm</a></a> for more!
>> Edited by keri on Thursday 8th September 11:59
>> Edited by keri on Thursday 8th September 12:00
>> Edited by keri on Thursday 8th September 12:01
Having owned at least 10 Alfa V6 engined cars, I can tell you that the exhaust note is awsome. However, the 12v Engine is 100 1b heavier than a rover V8. Yes, you read correct it is a VERY heavy engine. The 24v Engine is REALLY HEAVY.
The 164 engine is front wheel drive, so you would need a crank and sump from a RWD 75 V6. Then you would need a ZF gearbox and bellhousing from an Alfa 6, as the 75 has a transaxle that will not fit into a wedge chassis.
Ultimatley you will be left with a car almost as fast as a rover V8, but with slightly better fuel economy. Also the Alfa V6 is very dependent on the exhaust system, so it may well end up throttled back considerably.
-Jim
The 164 engine is front wheel drive, so you would need a crank and sump from a RWD 75 V6. Then you would need a ZF gearbox and bellhousing from an Alfa 6, as the 75 has a transaxle that will not fit into a wedge chassis.
Ultimatley you will be left with a car almost as fast as a rover V8, but with slightly better fuel economy. Also the Alfa V6 is very dependent on the exhaust system, so it may well end up throttled back considerably.
-Jim
Ah, but an RV8 doesnt fit in a series 1 Tasmin, the Alfa engine will...hopefully
A 164 engine can be used, crank included, using a spigot bearing 16mmx23mm(o/d)x15mm(i/d), the Alfa clutch cover with a Ford 228mm friction plate to suit the Ford Type 9 'box (1"x 23 splines) and a Saab 900/9000 concentric slave. The Ford release bearing has a flat face and the fingers on the Alfa clutch cover are also straight which makes them incompatible. To overcome this, a domed ring can be 'glued' to the Ford CRB. Another option is adapting the Alfa release bearing to fit on the slave.
Regards
Iain
A 164 engine can be used, crank included, using a spigot bearing 16mmx23mm(o/d)x15mm(i/d), the Alfa clutch cover with a Ford 228mm friction plate to suit the Ford Type 9 'box (1"x 23 splines) and a Saab 900/9000 concentric slave. The Ford release bearing has a flat face and the fingers on the Alfa clutch cover are also straight which makes them incompatible. To overcome this, a domed ring can be 'glued' to the Ford CRB. Another option is adapting the Alfa release bearing to fit on the slave.
Regards
Iain
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