flapper to hotwire
Discussion
Considering to change from flapper to hotwire, as currently the ECU is sick. Looking for a reliable long term solution, and think that the conversion is that. So, if a full 'modern' hotwire system is to be installed on a '87 350i: what not to do, what to look out for, and what could be improved during this surgery on my wedge, advantages&disadvantages (except those already posted in the past)?
For example came across things like road speed sensor, and don't have that for the moment, etc.
Thanks in advance, and any help appreciated.
Hans, as you can deduct from this post, will be in contact with you shortly. And your spare ECU is doing nicely at the moment......
Rob
For example came across things like road speed sensor, and don't have that for the moment, etc.
Thanks in advance, and any help appreciated.
Hans, as you can deduct from this post, will be in contact with you shortly. And your spare ECU is doing nicely at the moment......
Rob
Rob
I think you might want to get in touch with Mark Adams - he is the only one I know that will know how to do this.
Personally I think you should not do it - just fix your ECU : it would be far easier.
MA - does an ECU reconditioning service.
The best way to be sure it's the ECU is just to swap with someone elses to see if that is the problem.
I think you might want to get in touch with Mark Adams - he is the only one I know that will know how to do this.
Personally I think you should not do it - just fix your ECU : it would be far easier.
MA - does an ECU reconditioning service.
The best way to be sure it's the ECU is just to swap with someone elses to see if that is the problem.
If you're going to the trouble and expense of changing the AFM, ECU etc, I'd investigate the after-market fully-mapable systems as well. They will also control ignition, and make adjusting settings for future engine tuning far easier than the Lucas based systems, for which there are very very few people around able to tweak them.
7.
7.
Either of the Lucas systems is a stand-alone setup (ie separate from the main wiring loom). So as long as you get the hotwire loom and all the bits attached to it, you will be somewhere near. Obviously you need the stepper motor instead of the over-run valve, little details like that... but easy enough, I'd have thought.
Rob,
Like other posts here I'd echo the sentiment that if your going to the trouble to change (& it wont be easy or straight forward) then I'd change to a leter system completely.
I'd simply get your ECU sorted. Try ATP or one of their agents as they do recon. The flapper system is not particulalry more relaiable than the later hot wire.
Best guy to talk to is Mark Adams (See TVRCC Sprint for his No.s) or mail me for my number. (Previously Manager of Land Rover Engine Management Systems Moved from 14CUX to GEMS (Sagem) and then the best move of all was to Bosch for Disco 2.
TaS
Like other posts here I'd echo the sentiment that if your going to the trouble to change (& it wont be easy or straight forward) then I'd change to a leter system completely.
I'd simply get your ECU sorted. Try ATP or one of their agents as they do recon. The flapper system is not particulalry more relaiable than the later hot wire.
Best guy to talk to is Mark Adams (See TVRCC Sprint for his No.s) or mail me for my number. (Previously Manager of Land Rover Engine Management Systems Moved from 14CUX to GEMS (Sagem) and then the best move of all was to Bosch for Disco 2.
TaS
I managed to get a recon ecu for about £100 for my old 350, and never missed a beat afterwards.
Mind you on the 450 I'm still looking into putting Megasquirt on to control the fuelling. I now have the kit, just need to build it and then mutilate my spare wiring sytem to make the connections.
Mind you on the 450 I'm still looking into putting Megasquirt on to control the fuelling. I now have the kit, just need to build it and then mutilate my spare wiring sytem to make the connections.
Can't understand why more don't go the Megasquirt route.
I'm waiting for a built unit to install - chap in Yorkshire will make a 2.2 version, test it and set it up with a get you going map for 170 quid.
Hopefully over the next month I can install and will let you know how it goes but for the money and what it offers it's got to be the way to go.
An XJ6 flapper and matched ECU on Ebay should recoup some of the outlay as well - these days will even drive an IAC steper motor and as DIY tuneable has got to be easier than going hotwire. IMO.
I'm waiting for a built unit to install - chap in Yorkshire will make a 2.2 version, test it and set it up with a get you going map for 170 quid.
Hopefully over the next month I can install and will let you know how it goes but for the money and what it offers it's got to be the way to go.
An XJ6 flapper and matched ECU on Ebay should recoup some of the outlay as well - these days will even drive an IAC steper motor and as DIY tuneable has got to be easier than going hotwire. IMO.
The hot wire is easy enough to plug in, When i built the tuscan ( ok so it already had all the bits on the engine) as it has its own loom its a bunch of earths, some power feeds, feeds to the fuel pump and that was about it.
If you can get a complete setup it shouldnt be that difficult but presumerably you'll need everything from inlet manifold up?
G
If you can get a complete setup it shouldnt be that difficult but presumerably you'll need everything from inlet manifold up?
G
chunder said:I also think that Megasquirt has to be the way to go. Tell me more about the "chap in Yorkshire". I have promised myself that if I get ECU trouble then thats when she gets squirted. Just hopeing it happens after UMS is released.
Can't understand why more don't go the Megasquirt route.
I'm waiting for a built unit to install - chap in Yorkshire will make a 2.2 version, test it and set it up with a get you going map for 170 quid.
Thanks for the feedback until now. You are a great lot to make you (=me) think. For your information: am an automotive engineer, work on cars for over 20 years (only my own, except the exception...), cost to fix the ECU (live in Belgium) is over an full & complete hotwire system (=loom, inlet manifold, injectors, ECU, plenum, stepper motor, etc.) on offer. So considered this a "copy and adapt" routine to do this in a weekend or so.
But as I have never worked on this subject on my wedge yet, thought to have a go at you lot. And it is working out fine for the moment.
Summary: don't do it, look for mapable stuff, it is easy. Ehmmm. So what is it going to be? Remark: Try to keep this Dutch 350i a bit original, but like to improve it and especially like to make it more reliable.
Looking forward to the new round of feedback.
Ian, if I ditch the flapper system, your welcome to pick up the sick ECU in Belgium (that will be a change from Dutch people going to the UK......) or meet you at the Zolder 2006 meeting.
Rob (and still enjoying the spare ECU of another Dutch wedge-er at the moment)
But as I have never worked on this subject on my wedge yet, thought to have a go at you lot. And it is working out fine for the moment.
Summary: don't do it, look for mapable stuff, it is easy. Ehmmm. So what is it going to be? Remark: Try to keep this Dutch 350i a bit original, but like to improve it and especially like to make it more reliable.
Looking forward to the new round of feedback.
Ian, if I ditch the flapper system, your welcome to pick up the sick ECU in Belgium (that will be a change from Dutch people going to the UK......) or meet you at the Zolder 2006 meeting.
Rob (and still enjoying the spare ECU of another Dutch wedge-er at the moment)
None of the components from the flapper will fit the hotwire. But i know a guy who changed his hotwire system to a fully mappable system on his 4.9 Rover V8 that was in a Mazda RX7 ( He now has the LS1 in it, geniune 415BHP!!.)
He is in Birmingham and i am using his workshop to restore my wedge, he is now into tuning and modyfying cars aswell as motorcycles, His place is Dyno Torque 0121 753 0415, ask for Craig.
He is in Birmingham and i am using his workshop to restore my wedge, he is now into tuning and modyfying cars aswell as motorcycles, His place is Dyno Torque 0121 753 0415, ask for Craig.
wedg1e said:
Paul: I thought your car already HAD Megasquirt? Now... is yours the car with twin Fiesta coil packs, or am I mixing you up with someone tall dark and handsome?
No not as yet, waiting for mine to break on its own before I have to fit it. Only need to put a mappable ecu as I ran out of steam at 5000 rpm ( 120mph ?) so not too bothered at the moment.
Although silly thing is brother builds and installs / dynos the units on drag racers up to 1000 hp, so we should be able to come up with something eventually.
Twin Fiesta coil pack sounds imteresting if going the megasquirt and spark route though, as must be enough of those in scrappers now to borrow the bits from
gsx600 said:
Paul: I thought your car already HAD Megasquirt?
No not as yet, waiting for mine to break on its own before I have to fit it. Only need to put a mappable ecu as I ran out of steam at 5000 rpm ( 120mph ?) so not too bothered at the moment.
Although silly thing is brother builds and installs / dynos the units on drag racers up to 1000 hp, so we should be able to come up with something eventually.
Twin Fiesta coil pack sounds imteresting if going the megasquirt and spark route though, as must be enough of those in scrappers now to borrow the bits from
So who's the guy who was at BBWF and Cadwell this year, with a blue wedge, homemade injection and sparks? The plenum was cut and rewelded too, I recall... 5000rpm? Sounds poorly!
leorest said:
I also think that Megasquirt has to be the way to go. Tell me more about the "chap in Yorkshire". I have promised myself that if I get ECU trouble then thats when she gets squirted. Just hopeing it happens after UMS is released.
If you email me direct I will pass on his contact details.
For me in Aus it worked out at around $350 to buy the bits and assemble myself (including stimulator for testing) or $420 to get one assembled and tested with a base RV8 map loaded - my soldering lasts for ever (if it works at all) due to the huge amounts I end up depositing so for $70 it made sense for me but obviously others may prefer the satisfaction of building from scratch.
As I have mentioned before why spend 500quid+ or whatever a time to get the Lucas ECU remapped by a specialist on a RR when for under half you can put a proven product on it that can be set up yourself on the road at any time. Can be upgraded to ignition control using distributor less coil packs and will even drive a stepper motor for idle control and once done you can flog off the old AFM and ECU as well !
chunder said:YHM
Can't understand why more don't go the Megasquirt route...chap in Yorkshire will make a 2.2 version.
Right said:Sorry just playing with boxes
Fred
Calling Mark Adams....., and still considering to replace the whole lot for hotwire (complete system available, better parts and replacement parts availability, more reliable, can upgrade the chip).
Putting a fully mapable system on sounds like fun, but probably will take time I don't have at the moment. Would like to give it ago if I knew somebody that knows this stuff. Anybody in Belgium/Holland?
And it was mentioned that you can have a RV8 pre-set, and set it up yourself. Think that at least one rolling road session would be required, with the standard diagnostic equipment around for proper setup and tuning. Seems very risky to me to change settings just like that, and don't think you can achieve an optimum setup 'manually' by trail and error. Or am I wrong here?
Probably will open up the old ECU and have a 'look' at it. You never know, as some people seemed to have fixed it themselves by resoldering some stuff. Know a few guys that know electronics, but they don't know cars, and especially not from the UK!
Rob
Putting a fully mapable system on sounds like fun, but probably will take time I don't have at the moment. Would like to give it ago if I knew somebody that knows this stuff. Anybody in Belgium/Holland?
And it was mentioned that you can have a RV8 pre-set, and set it up yourself. Think that at least one rolling road session would be required, with the standard diagnostic equipment around for proper setup and tuning. Seems very risky to me to change settings just like that, and don't think you can achieve an optimum setup 'manually' by trail and error. Or am I wrong here?
Probably will open up the old ECU and have a 'look' at it. You never know, as some people seemed to have fixed it themselves by resoldering some stuff. Know a few guys that know electronics, but they don't know cars, and especially not from the UK!
Rob
My understanding of the MS system is that you can log the lambda etc over a period of time then plug in your computer and correct any areas in the map that are shown to be less than optimum.
However on the Chimaera race car I had the choice between runing the original hotwire setup, albeit tinkered with by Mark Adams and running a Discovery Mk2 Thor manifold and high pressure injectors, and running the MS system with the Thor manifold etc, I've decided to run with the hotwire. After speaking with some of the flag wavers for both systems, the hotwire looks the best route to take. Basically its optimising the existing components, I'd suggest spending a bit of time and money on a Tornado chipped flapper ECU, optimising what you have is always the cheapest and easiest solution.
However if I was upgrading from carbs or from a flapper, I'd run a GEMS setup, in my mind its the best out there bar non for the Rover V8, and when i can afford the components and time to install it, thats where my money will be spent.
Regards
Iain
However on the Chimaera race car I had the choice between runing the original hotwire setup, albeit tinkered with by Mark Adams and running a Discovery Mk2 Thor manifold and high pressure injectors, and running the MS system with the Thor manifold etc, I've decided to run with the hotwire. After speaking with some of the flag wavers for both systems, the hotwire looks the best route to take. Basically its optimising the existing components, I'd suggest spending a bit of time and money on a Tornado chipped flapper ECU, optimising what you have is always the cheapest and easiest solution.
However if I was upgrading from carbs or from a flapper, I'd run a GEMS setup, in my mind its the best out there bar non for the Rover V8, and when i can afford the components and time to install it, thats where my money will be spent.
Regards
Iain
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