Will Not Start - 400SE Flapper
Discussion
Had the car out for a run a couple of weeks ago, went to take it out last week and it will not start.
When first attempting to start it sounds as if it will fire up for about 0.5 of a second and that's it.
From then on it just turns over.
Took number two spark plug out which was slightly black, running slightly rich, very easy/quick to clean
up. Connected HT lead to plug and left it on top of the rocker cover, turned the engine over and got a
spark at the plug.
Next check for fuel - reconnect cold start injector electrical lead which I normally do not have
connected. First stuck a stiff bit of paper into hole for #2 spark plug, turn engine over - paper still
dry. Repeat with spark plug refitted, remove spark plug, no fuel on spark plug.
What I would like to do next is check if there is fuel being sent to the engine by disconnecting the fuel feed pipe going into the engine. I am not sure which of the two fuel pipes is the feed and which is the return. Standing on the drivers side, looking a the side of the engine (cylinders 8-2), is the fuel feed to the engine the pipe on the left or the right ?
PS. I am aware that I should de-pressurise the fuel system but as the car will not run I cannot.
PPS. I am also aware that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
When first attempting to start it sounds as if it will fire up for about 0.5 of a second and that's it.
From then on it just turns over.
Took number two spark plug out which was slightly black, running slightly rich, very easy/quick to clean
up. Connected HT lead to plug and left it on top of the rocker cover, turned the engine over and got a
spark at the plug.
Next check for fuel - reconnect cold start injector electrical lead which I normally do not have
connected. First stuck a stiff bit of paper into hole for #2 spark plug, turn engine over - paper still
dry. Repeat with spark plug refitted, remove spark plug, no fuel on spark plug.
What I would like to do next is check if there is fuel being sent to the engine by disconnecting the fuel feed pipe going into the engine. I am not sure which of the two fuel pipes is the feed and which is the return. Standing on the drivers side, looking a the side of the engine (cylinders 8-2), is the fuel feed to the engine the pipe on the left or the right ?
PS. I am aware that I should de-pressurise the fuel system but as the car will not run I cannot.
PPS. I am also aware that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
As its a flapper, you can easily check that the fuel pump is working. Take the air filter off and also remove the fuel line from the cold start injecter - put this pipe into a jam jar or something to catch the fuel. Switch on the ignition and operate the air flow meter flapper with your hand. Its only about an inch or so in from where the air filter attaches. You should be able to hear the fuel pump easily and your jam jar should fill up with fuel!
5 minute job too!
Check that first, and if its all working ok report back for some more ideas!!!
Dan.
5 minute job too!
Check that first, and if its all working ok report back for some more ideas!!!
Dan.
Yeah, wear some goggles, sunglasses or whatever when you first open the fuel line, as it stings a bit if you get it in your eye. The fuel feed goes into the injector ring, and the fuel return line comes out of the pressure regulator, but as mentioned, it is far easier to use the cold start feed for the fuel delivery test. (Should be several litres per minute). Of course, to test the fuel pump under pressure you really should take the flow from the return side of the pressure regulator, and it doesn't keep residual pressure in it like the fuel ring does, so you don't have to worry about fuel being spurted all over the place - ooer.
How long has the car stood without being started?
-Jim
How long has the car stood without being started?
-Jim
Actually, another thing to check whilst you have the cold start injector pipe removed:-
If you have a tyre pump or something with a pressure gauge on it, you could unscrew this and attach it to the fuel pipe which goes to the cold start injector. Put a circlip/jubilee clip on it too to make sure it doesn't come off. Operate the fuel pump again for a few seconds by opening the flapper and then release it again. The pressure gauge should read about 2.4 - 2.5 bar and remain there even without the fuel pump running. If the pressure goes back to zero really quickly, then the fuel pressure regulator is probably at fault, meaning your injectors won't have much fuel to squirt!
By testing all these things, you wil know that the fuel pump is being correctly operated by the air flow meter, that you have fuel in the lines and that the pressure regulator is working.
Dan.
If you have a tyre pump or something with a pressure gauge on it, you could unscrew this and attach it to the fuel pipe which goes to the cold start injector. Put a circlip/jubilee clip on it too to make sure it doesn't come off. Operate the fuel pump again for a few seconds by opening the flapper and then release it again. The pressure gauge should read about 2.4 - 2.5 bar and remain there even without the fuel pump running. If the pressure goes back to zero really quickly, then the fuel pressure regulator is probably at fault, meaning your injectors won't have much fuel to squirt!
By testing all these things, you wil know that the fuel pump is being correctly operated by the air flow meter, that you have fuel in the lines and that the pressure regulator is working.
Dan.
From the ignition amp on the side of the distributor is a wire that leads off around the l/h side of the engine bay and joins the wiring loom at or near the airflow meter. Before it reaches that point there's usually a bullet connector in the wire: if that corrodes (and it does) the ECU gets no trigger information and doesn't know it's supposed to be firing the injectors.
That'd be the first thing I'd check
That'd be the first thing I'd check
wedg1e said:
From the ignition amp on the side of the distributor is a wire that leads off around the l/h side of the engine bay and joins the wiring loom at or near the airflow meter. Before it reaches that point there's usually a bullet connector in the wire: if that corrodes (and it does) the ECU gets no trigger information and doesn't know it's supposed to be firing the injectors.
That'd be the first thing I'd check
That'd be the first thing I'd check
Damn! I always thought that wire triggered the sparks! Brain information now updated.
Dan.
Deja-vu, now where have I come across this before???? had exactly the same problem a couple of months ago, and fortunately Wedg1e and Rev pointed me in the right directions, turned out that I was only getting a weak trigger signal from the dizzy due to a foreign body covering the sensor in the dizzy, just enough of a signal to collapse the coil and generate a spark on the plugs, but not enough to tell the ECU to fire the injectors apart from the occasional 'cough'
And before anybody asks, the foreign body was not an illegal immigrant hiding under the dizzy cap!
It was the rotor arm retaining clip!
Edited by chedder on Monday 19th March 20:00
And before anybody asks, the foreign body was not an illegal immigrant hiding under the dizzy cap!
It was the rotor arm retaining clip!
Edited by chedder on Monday 19th March 20:03
Right, Update Time:
Did this and the fuel pump is working.
Managed to cobble something together and got a peak of 3.0 bar which dropped to 2.4 after 5 minutes and was still at 2.4 after another 5.
Checked this and it appears to be in good nick.
Had a look but could not see anything. Can you remove the rotor arm? Also there is a clear plastic cover beneath the rotor arm which says "Do not remove"?
So it would appear there is a spark, the fuel pump is working and the fuel pressure regulator is working. What to check next?
Just to add a couple of things:
In the last couple of months I have fitted a new set of HT leads. I might refit the old ones and see what happens.
In the week prior to the problem I did a couple of runs over the same route. On both occasions, entering uphill slip road to join motorway, put my foot down and no acceleration, car eventually picked up speed but not as rapidly as you would expect.
digga951 said:
As its a flapper, you can easily check that the fuel pump is working. Take the air filter off and also remove the fuel line from the cold start injecter - put this pipe into a jam jar or something to catch the fuel. Switch on the ignition and operate the air flow meter flapper with your hand. Its only about an inch or so in from where the air filter attaches. You should be able to hear the fuel pump easily and your jam jar should fill up with fuel!
5 minute job too!
Check that first, and if its all working ok report back for some more ideas!!!
Dan.
5 minute job too!
Check that first, and if its all working ok report back for some more ideas!!!
Dan.
Did this and the fuel pump is working.
digga951 said:
Actually, another thing to check whilst you have the cold start injector pipe removed:-
If you have a tyre pump or something with a pressure gauge on it, you could unscrew this and attach it to the fuel pipe which goes to the cold start injector. Put a circlip/jubilee clip on it too to make sure it doesn't come off. Operate the fuel pump again for a few seconds by opening the flapper and then release it again. The pressure gauge should read about 2.4 - 2.5 bar and remain there even without the fuel pump running. If the pressure goes back to zero really quickly, then the fuel pressure regulator is probably at fault, meaning your injectors won't have much fuel to squirt!
By testing all these things, you will know that the fuel pump is being correctly operated by the air flow meter, that you have fuel in the lines and that the pressure regulator is working.
Dan.
If you have a tyre pump or something with a pressure gauge on it, you could unscrew this and attach it to the fuel pipe which goes to the cold start injector. Put a circlip/jubilee clip on it too to make sure it doesn't come off. Operate the fuel pump again for a few seconds by opening the flapper and then release it again. The pressure gauge should read about 2.4 - 2.5 bar and remain there even without the fuel pump running. If the pressure goes back to zero really quickly, then the fuel pressure regulator is probably at fault, meaning your injectors won't have much fuel to squirt!
By testing all these things, you will know that the fuel pump is being correctly operated by the air flow meter, that you have fuel in the lines and that the pressure regulator is working.
Dan.
Managed to cobble something together and got a peak of 3.0 bar which dropped to 2.4 after 5 minutes and was still at 2.4 after another 5.
wedg1e said:
From the ignition amp on the side of the distributor is a wire that leads off around the l/h side of the engine bay and joins the wiring loom at or near the airflow meter. Before it reaches that point there's usually a bullet connector in the wire: if that corrodes (and it does) the ECU gets no trigger information and doesn't know it's supposed to be firing the injectors.
That'd be the first thing I'd check
That'd be the first thing I'd check
Checked this and it appears to be in good nick.
chedder said:
Deja-vu, now where have I come across this before???? had exactly the same problem a couple of months ago, and fortunately Wedg1e and Rev pointed me in the right directions, turned out that I was only getting a weak trigger signal from the dizzy due to a foreign body covering the sensor in the dizzy, just enough of a signal to collapse the coil and generate a spark on the plugs, but not enough to tell the ECU to fire the injectors apart from the occasional 'cough'.
Had a look but could not see anything. Can you remove the rotor arm? Also there is a clear plastic cover beneath the rotor arm which says "Do not remove"?
So it would appear there is a spark, the fuel pump is working and the fuel pressure regulator is working. What to check next?
Just to add a couple of things:
In the last couple of months I have fitted a new set of HT leads. I might refit the old ones and see what happens.
In the week prior to the problem I did a couple of runs over the same route. On both occasions, entering uphill slip road to join motorway, put my foot down and no acceleration, car eventually picked up speed but not as rapidly as you would expect.
Crikey! Ummm....
I'll answer your question about the distributer first. You can indeed remove the rotor arm, but be careful. It should just pull off, however some people have found that a heavy hand can dislodge the weights which are located at the bottom of the dizzy. Its not something to be scared of as it takes about 5 minutes to get them back in place again. The weights are attached to the bottom of the shaft and advance the timing at higher engine revs via a centrifugal action.
Anyway, pull the rotor arm off and remove the plastic cover. I normally take things a little easy around these areas just incase of any electric shocks, although I'm sure thats just me being overly cautious. You can always disconnect the 2 wires going to the ignition amp unit on the side for safety. Underneath the plastic cover, there will be another circular piece of plastic with a rotation sensor built into it. I normally just take everything out of the dizzy and lay it down in order when I'm stripping one down. Just make sure that nothing has come adrift, nothing is stopping the sensors doing their job, and that the spring/arm is still attached to the vacuum thingy. Underneath all this, you should see the weights which should spring out when you turn the shaft a few degrees. A dropof oil never goes amiss. If everything is ok, put it back together in the reverse order again. As I say, it can seem a little technical, but in reality its only about 5 pieces in total!
If the dizzy all seems ok, then I would check the big plug on the ecu is still connected firmly. Its located in the passenger footwell, just above the flap which should pull down after a screw is removed. Just find the ecu, take thw plug off, make sure its all dust free and not damaged, then reseat it firmly.
At this point, you don't know if the injectors are actually firing. The reason it sometimes appears to start for a second or so could be due to the cold start injector supplying a bit of fuel when cranking. This uses a different circuit to the rest of the injectors I think. Anyway, on the near-side, inner- front wing you should see a reistor pack. Its a metal thing with a white lucas sticker on it, with a multiplug sticking out of the front. Check the multiplug is all seated firmly and that its not corroded up etc. It should have an earthing strap under it too. I seem to recall you can test the voltages for each of the pins, but would need to check the book for the values first. I'm sure Wedgie be along in a minute who will know that off by heart anyway :-) Last year, I was doing a bit of an injection system overhaul and found it was quite easy to remove a few injectors and test to see if they were working. I'm sure you could always just remove one and with an extra piece of hose and a jam jar, test to see if it squirts fuel when cranking. If it doesn't, you've found the cause.
Next, I would check a few more of the spark plugs for sparks. I know you've already checked one, but it could have been a lucky choice. A couple more would make sure you have enough fire for the fuel! An easy way is to connect a timing strobe to each HT lead and see if it lights up on cranking.
Failing all that, it sounds like something more circuit board related... The engine is quite basic with very few sensors, so it could just be the ecu needs a resolder. You haven't got a faulty imobiliser have you?
I'll post this now incase youre still online waiting and have some more thoughts.
Dan.
I'll answer your question about the distributer first. You can indeed remove the rotor arm, but be careful. It should just pull off, however some people have found that a heavy hand can dislodge the weights which are located at the bottom of the dizzy. Its not something to be scared of as it takes about 5 minutes to get them back in place again. The weights are attached to the bottom of the shaft and advance the timing at higher engine revs via a centrifugal action.
Anyway, pull the rotor arm off and remove the plastic cover. I normally take things a little easy around these areas just incase of any electric shocks, although I'm sure thats just me being overly cautious. You can always disconnect the 2 wires going to the ignition amp unit on the side for safety. Underneath the plastic cover, there will be another circular piece of plastic with a rotation sensor built into it. I normally just take everything out of the dizzy and lay it down in order when I'm stripping one down. Just make sure that nothing has come adrift, nothing is stopping the sensors doing their job, and that the spring/arm is still attached to the vacuum thingy. Underneath all this, you should see the weights which should spring out when you turn the shaft a few degrees. A dropof oil never goes amiss. If everything is ok, put it back together in the reverse order again. As I say, it can seem a little technical, but in reality its only about 5 pieces in total!
If the dizzy all seems ok, then I would check the big plug on the ecu is still connected firmly. Its located in the passenger footwell, just above the flap which should pull down after a screw is removed. Just find the ecu, take thw plug off, make sure its all dust free and not damaged, then reseat it firmly.
At this point, you don't know if the injectors are actually firing. The reason it sometimes appears to start for a second or so could be due to the cold start injector supplying a bit of fuel when cranking. This uses a different circuit to the rest of the injectors I think. Anyway, on the near-side, inner- front wing you should see a reistor pack. Its a metal thing with a white lucas sticker on it, with a multiplug sticking out of the front. Check the multiplug is all seated firmly and that its not corroded up etc. It should have an earthing strap under it too. I seem to recall you can test the voltages for each of the pins, but would need to check the book for the values first. I'm sure Wedgie be along in a minute who will know that off by heart anyway :-) Last year, I was doing a bit of an injection system overhaul and found it was quite easy to remove a few injectors and test to see if they were working. I'm sure you could always just remove one and with an extra piece of hose and a jam jar, test to see if it squirts fuel when cranking. If it doesn't, you've found the cause.
Next, I would check a few more of the spark plugs for sparks. I know you've already checked one, but it could have been a lucky choice. A couple more would make sure you have enough fire for the fuel! An easy way is to connect a timing strobe to each HT lead and see if it lights up on cranking.
Failing all that, it sounds like something more circuit board related... The engine is quite basic with very few sensors, so it could just be the ecu needs a resolder. You haven't got a faulty imobiliser have you?
I'll post this now incase youre still online waiting and have some more thoughts.
Dan.
Weeelll, if you have the pressure tester hooked up still, you can try a little test.
With some residual pressure in the system still, turn the ignition on, and then listen very carefully, while you open the throttle by hand - the injectors should all fire at a certain speed of throttle opening - you should hear clicks, and the fuel pressure should go down due to the injectors erm injecting. The lucas 4CU system does something a bit like you get with the power valve on a carburetter, it bypasses the injector pulse measuring system and just slams the injectors full on for a little while.
This should at least test the injectors.
Hope this helps.
-Jim
With some residual pressure in the system still, turn the ignition on, and then listen very carefully, while you open the throttle by hand - the injectors should all fire at a certain speed of throttle opening - you should hear clicks, and the fuel pressure should go down due to the injectors erm injecting. The lucas 4CU system does something a bit like you get with the power valve on a carburetter, it bypasses the injector pulse measuring system and just slams the injectors full on for a little while.
This should at least test the injectors.
Hope this helps.
-Jim
jchase said:
Weeelll, if you have the pressure tester hooked up still, you can try a little test.
With some residual pressure in the system still, turn the ignition on, and then listen very carefully, while you open the throttle by hand - the injectors should all fire at a certain speed of throttle opening - you should hear clicks, and the fuel pressure should go down due to the injectors erm injecting. The lucas 4CU system does something a bit like you get with the power valve on a carburetter, it bypasses the injector pulse measuring system and just slams the injectors full on for a little while.
This should at least test the injectors.
Hope this helps.
-Jim
With some residual pressure in the system still, turn the ignition on, and then listen very carefully, while you open the throttle by hand - the injectors should all fire at a certain speed of throttle opening - you should hear clicks, and the fuel pressure should go down due to the injectors erm injecting. The lucas 4CU system does something a bit like you get with the power valve on a carburetter, it bypasses the injector pulse measuring system and just slams the injectors full on for a little while.
This should at least test the injectors.
Hope this helps.
-Jim
Right, going to have another look at this tomorrow.
Would I be able to "test" the injectors as follows:
Disconnect electrical connection from injector.
Switch on ignition.
Insert probes from multimeter into electrical connection previously removed from injector.
Operate flap in air flow meter as described in previous advice.
I would assume that I should be able to see a change in reading as the injector is "fired".
KJR
The injectors will only fire if the engine is cranking, it doesn't need the afm flap to be moved, be carefull when you insert your multimeter probes into the injector plug, as you may open up the contacts.
If you do a search back on the wedge pages you will come across my pea for help 'injector voltage' on this topic their is a link about the V8 fuel injection manual, its a big help!
If you do a search back on the wedge pages you will come across my pea for help 'injector voltage' on this topic their is a link about the V8 fuel injection manual, its a big help!
I had a very similar starting problem, and after checking everything out as per various instructions from manuals and web pages and swapping with known working parts from my other V8 it turned out to be the rotor arm.
Now I thought this would be ok as I was also getting a spark, but it seemd faint, so tried swapping dissy amp. coil, and inj pack, all of which made no difference
Ordered a new rotor arm put it on and it started first time and has run with no probs since, funny thing was the old rotor arm did actually work on the other V8 (WSV) but replaced anyway
Also make sure you have a healthy charged battery as mine fails to start if batt a little flat which is a bit of a pain sometimes
Good luck
Now I thought this would be ok as I was also getting a spark, but it seemd faint, so tried swapping dissy amp. coil, and inj pack, all of which made no difference
Ordered a new rotor arm put it on and it started first time and has run with no probs since, funny thing was the old rotor arm did actually work on the other V8 (WSV) but replaced anyway
Also make sure you have a healthy charged battery as mine fails to start if batt a little flat which is a bit of a pain sometimes
Good luck
Chedder and gsx600 thanks for the info.
One more question: I might be able to get a loan of an ECU, from a local wedge, to swap with mine and do a quick check. The "problem" might be that the local wedge is a "hot wire" and mine is a "flapper"; are the ecu's the same and I can try this or are they different?
One more question: I might be able to get a loan of an ECU, from a local wedge, to swap with mine and do a quick check. The "problem" might be that the local wedge is a "hot wire" and mine is a "flapper"; are the ecu's the same and I can try this or are they different?
different ecu's the flapper is a 4cu and the hotwire is a 14cux, where in the uk are you?
I have a spare ecu if you need a loaner
www.pixeltechnology.co.uk/wedge/maintenance.html found the linky thing, this may be of help.
I have a spare ecu if you need a loaner
Edited by chedder on Thursday 22 March 22:06
www.pixeltechnology.co.uk/wedge/maintenance.html found the linky thing, this may be of help.
Edited by chedder on Thursday 22 March 22:07
Edited by chedder on Thursday 22 March 22:11
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